London Buses Discussion

[coach fan]

TfL have launched a consultation on changes to bus routes to serve Phase 2 of the Meridian Water development.

In summary:

• 192: Diverted at the Town Road/Montagu Road junction to Picketts Lock Lee Valley Athletics Centre
• 341: Cut back to Northumberland Park
• 444: Diverted at Montagu Road to serve the development via Glover Drive. Rejoins current line of route at Cooks Ferry Roundabout
• 476: Extended from Northumberland Park to Meridian Water Harbet Road
• N341: New Night Bus route providing a half hourly service between Waterloo and Meridian Water Harbet Road
• W8: Diverted at the Bounces Road/Montagu Road junction to Tottenham Hale Station via the current 192 route, with a diversion through the development after Glover Drive Angel Road Superstores

Ha I like how they dress it up as being done to serve a new development. All it is is cuts cuts and more cuts.

 

[aron2smith]

Ha I like how they dress it up as being done to serve a new development. All it is is cuts cuts and more cuts.

How are they cuts? All routes are going to stay at the same frequency, hours of operation and all the current areas will still be served.

I agree with a lot of the proposal but not all of it.

Pickett's Lock is a quiet terminus so making the 192 go there instead of W8 makes sense. The 192 uses single deckers, these can fill up just from Tottenham Hale at peak times, having it go to a quieter area while the W8 which uses double deckers serve the busier section towards Tottenham makes sense. Angel Road to Tottenham Hale has never had double deckers, so that is an increase in capacity as frequencies won't be cut. W8 is also more frequent than the 192.

444 being diverted to serve the new development also makes sense as the section it serves on the A406 barely picks anyone up and is a nightmare section of that road for traffic! Delays are a daily problem at Cooks Ferry especially, ideally some kind of priority is needed to improve reliability for buses on the A406.

341/ 476 baffles me. If they are concerned about journey times, I would simply swap the numbers. So 341 would be Meridian Water to Kings Cross via 476 routeing. And 476 would be Northumberland Park to Waterloo via 341 routeing. The N341 is not a new service as the 341 is a 24 hour service and wouldn't need a separate number if they did what I proposed.

A couple rearrangements but everything is served as today and a few new connections are gained in the first place, where demand is greater.

What I find interesting is the map shows a road in Meridian Water that doesn't exist yet, so no idea when these changes would happen.

Also a shame TFL has no real say in the rail station as most services are shuttles to Stratford, very few trains that go north call there unlike Northumberland Park, seems like a missed opportunity. At least 1 train an hour to/ from Hertford East would be ideal, was quite useful over Christmas when it did this.

 

[Thirteen]

SL11 launches this weekend which means you could use three SL buses to get from Croydon to North Greenwich or if you fancied being a sadist, North Woolwich to North Greenwich using 8 SL buses.

 

[Mattplans]

I'm not really a huge fan of the whole superloop scheme. Very unnecessary flashy liveries painting iconic Red London buses into route-specific making them unusable for other routes thereby reducing flexibility. Express buses are not exactly a revolutionary idea - and every single route that has been added under this scheme could have just been an Xroute. This specific route is being introduced at the expense of the local stopping route 472. Express buses shouldn't be added at the expense of the 'local' routes and they should work together.

 

[Statto]

I'm not really a huge fan of the whole superloop scheme. Very unnecessary flashy liveries painting iconic Red London buses into route-specific making them unusable for other routes thereby reducing flexibility. Express buses are not exactly a revolutionary idea - and every single route that has been added under this scheme could have just been an Xroute. This specific route is being introduced at the expense of the local stopping route 472. Express buses shouldn't be added at the expense of the 'local' routes and they should work together.

I'm fine with the Superloop routes, some were new routes when they were introduced, others just renumbering's, i'm not sure withdrawing the existing 472 though.

The error is calling them express routes rather than limited stop routes given the average speed in London

 

[Snow1964]

SL11 launches this weekend which means you could use three SL buses to get from Croydon to North Greenwich or if you fancied being a sadist, North Woolwich to North Greenwich using 8 SL buses.

Reported elsewhere that it will use some LTs previously used on SL3 and stored for months at West Ham, think is was LT120-135 which are 12 years old, originally with London United. (superloop SL3 now has new electric buses)

Been suggested on a bus forum that after months in storage, some of the buses need more work, so 14-16 year old double decks that were due to be withdrawn are going to be pressed into further service to cover non availability

Have to see what actually happens on Saturday

 

[MotCO]

The error is calling them express routes rather than limited stop routes given the average speed in London

I recall Geoff Marshall's video on riding all the orbital SL routes, and observing that some SL buses were held up in bus lanes by normal service buses, so how 'express' are the services? The only direct comparison is between the 472 and SL11, where the SL11 takes on average 45 minutes to travel from Abbey Wood and North Greenwich, whereas the 472 takes 58 minutes. So yes, on paper it is quicker and therefore 'express', but we will have to wait for real life experiences.

 

[Mikey C]

I recall Geoff Marshall's video on riding all the orbital SL routes, and observing that some SL buses were held up in bus lanes by normal service buses, so how 'express' are the services? The only direct comparison is between the 472 and SL11, where the SL11 takes on average 45 minutes to travel from Abbey Wood and North Greenwich, whereas the 472 takes 58 minutes. So yes, on paper it is quicker and therefore 'express', but we will have to wait for real life experiences.

That speed improvement will be lessened if the bus now misses out your local stop...

 

[Mattplans]

The error is calling them express routes rather than limited stop routes given the average speed in London

Very true.

 

[DGP]

The error is calling them express routes rather than limited stop routes given the average speed in London

The SL4 isn't even Limited Stop

 

[Snow1964]

On Saturday route B15 changes operator from Arriva to GoAhead.

I think the route currently has some of the oldest buses in London, being mainly operated with ENX class enviro 200s from 2009 (and couple of 2011-2012 buses)

 

[Mark L]

I'm fine with the Superloop routes, some were new routes when they were introduced, others just renumbering's, i'm not sure withdrawing the existing 472 though.

The error is calling them express routes rather than limited stop routes given the average speed in London

It’s all relative - given that the average speed of London’s buses is just over 9mph the Superloop routes, aside from the atypical SL6, probably do warrant the label express - they tend to average in the 14/15mph range. That said, personally I do think that limited stop is probably a more accurate description.

 

[aron2smith]

The SL4 isn't even Limited Stop

Yeah and that really disappointed me when I rid it, the double run near Canning Town/ Leamouth was confusing too. Felt reasonably fast to Blackheath area because of the tunnel. Not convinced it or SL6 should be apart of Superloop though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jan 2026 ==

I recall Geoff Marshall's video on riding all the orbital SL routes, and observing that some SL buses were held up in bus lanes by normal service buses, so how 'express' are the services? The only direct comparison is between the 472 and SL11, where the SL11 takes on average 45 minutes to travel from Abbey Wood and North Greenwich, whereas the 472 takes 58 minutes. So yes, on paper it is quicker and therefore 'express', but we will have to wait for real life experiences.

I think the issue is a lot of new housing is going up in the Woolwich/ Thamesmead/ Abbey Wood areas and this change to buses means they are not much use all of a sudden. I'm also surprised SL11 doesn't stop nearer to Woolwich Ferry and Woolwich Foot Tunnel, so more of an interchange exists with North Woolwich and SL2.

 

[Instinct04]

How are they cuts? All routes are going to stay at the same frequency, hours of operation and all the current areas will still be served.

I agree with a lot of the proposal but not all of it.

Pickett's Lock is a quiet terminus so making the 192 go there instead of W8 makes sense. The 192 uses single deckers, these can fill up just from Tottenham Hale at peak times, having it go to a quieter area while the W8 which uses double deckers serve the busier section towards Tottenham makes sense. Angel Road to Tottenham Hale has never had double deckers, so that is an increase in capacity as frequencies won't be cut. W8 is also more frequent than the 192.

444 being diverted to serve the new development also makes sense as the section it serves on the A406 barely picks anyone up and is a nightmare section of that road for traffic! Delays are a daily problem at Cooks Ferry especially, ideally some kind of priority is needed to improve reliability for buses on the A406.

341/ 476 baffles me. If they are concerned about journey times, I would simply swap the numbers. So 341 would be Meridian Water to Kings Cross via 476 routeing. And 476 would be Northumberland Park to Waterloo via 341 routeing. The N341 is not a new service as the 341 is a 24 hour service and wouldn't need a separate number if they did what I proposed.

A couple rearrangements but everything is served as today and a few new connections are gained in the first place, where demand is greater.

What I find interesting is the map shows a road in Meridian Water that doesn't exist yet, so no idea when these changes would happen.

Also a shame TFL has no real say in the rail station as most services are shuttles to Stratford, very few trains that go north call there unlike Northumberland Park, seems like a missed opportunity. At least 1 train an hour to/ from Hertford East would be ideal, was quite useful over Christmas when it did this.

I am in favour of the new Meridian Water bus proposals. Particularly excited about the W8 bus from Edmonton Green to Tottenham Hale. This will most definitely address the capacity issue on that section.

There is no room to call additional trains at Meridian Water (as we both know already).

Enfield MP Feryal Clark has launched a campaign to put a superloop express bus from Tottenham Hale to Enfield Lock. It would travel along Watermead Way, Meridian Way and Mollison Avenue.

I feel like this proposal is more likely to happen that any additional trains stopping outside peak times unfortunately…

Have you seen it? I think there’s a petition you can sign or something you can vote for.

Get at it!

 

[ScotGG]

That loop on the SL4 is silly. No idea what they were thinking. OK well I do as it serves some housing but its not great for a supposed express link. I know some people asked for it but people ask for silly things all the time in consultations. The SL11 also demonstrates silly thinking as you state by skipping much of the new housing to stop at really quiet stops. Almost as if Transport for London were not even aware of the new homes.

 

[PeterC]

That speed improvement will be lessened if the bus now misses out your local stop...

Don't worry, once the publicity about "express" services dies down there will be a succession of councilors demanding extra stops on their local sections of route

 

[Marcus Fryer]

Don't worry, once the publicity about "express" services dies down there will be a succession of councilors demanding extra stops on their local sections of route

I certainly think that the SL7 could have a stop at Feltham instead of running non-stop Teddington-Hatton Cross.

 

[aron2smith]

I certainly think that the SL7 could have a stop at Feltham instead of running non-stop Teddington-Hatton Cross.

Would make sense, you can see the back of Feltham station as you go past if sitting upstairs on SL7! Could stop near to where Harlington Road and Hounslow Road meet.

 

[Mark L]

Would make sense, you can see the back of Feltham station as you go past if sitting upstairs on SL7! Could stop near to where Harlington Road and Hounslow Road meet.

It could be diverted, with very little time penalty, to serve the station itself (much as the 726 did in years gone by).

 

[bb21]

SL11 launches this weekend which means you could use three SL buses to get from Croydon to North Greenwich

... which is slower than 2 or 3 conventional buses in various combinations, unless the passenger is a bit loopy.

 

[LUYMun]

I certainly think that the SL7 could have a stop at Feltham instead of running non-stop Teddington-Hatton Cross.

Then everyone for Feltham would crowd the bus just to go there from Heathrow instead of longer-distance passengers.

 

[Marcus Fryer]

Then everyone for Feltham would crowd the bus just to go there from Heathrow instead of longer-distance passengers.

Is that a problem on the SL9 between Heathrow and Hayes then?

 

[aron2smith]

There is no room to call additional trains at Meridian Water (as we both know already).

Not without 4 tracking no. But Tottenham Hale and Northumberland Park lack a platform 1 since that 3rd track was installed (Meridian Water opened without a platform 1) , which is silly and surely can't last like that for decades!

Enfield MP Feryal Clark has launched a campaign to put a superloop express bus from Tottenham Hale to Enfield Lock. It would travel along Watermead Way, Meridian Way and Mollison Avenue.

I did see that but very concerned about such a route, at peak times it would never be reliable and be very slow. When I lived in Edmonton, my secondary school was in Enfield and Mum took me via Meridian Way. The minute we left the house lead to some very different journey times. 7:50am - the drive took less than 20 minutes, leave at 8am - always over half hour without fail, enough to make me late!

Sadly these MPs will never argue for it but really these limited stop buses need to provide new cross-boundary options. So like until around 1990, London's buses need to start from Waltham Abbey and Cheshunt before considering such a route like the Enfield MP said. A lot of the traffic comes from the steadily growing built up area around Greater London and the only way to really fix that is by TFL buses covering all towns within the full London built up area.

A bit like the proposed SL14 - Chingford Hatch to Stratford, that would've been much more useful if it started in either Waltham Abbey or Loughton. The former having no direct bus at all and the later having the 397 which finishes by 7:30pm and in the day is often packed as it runs only every half hour!

 

[SteveHFC]

A bit like the proposed SL14 - Chingford Hatch to Stratford, that would've been much more useful if it started in either Waltham Abbey or Loughton. The former having no direct bus at all and the later having the 397 which finishes by 7:30pm and in the day is often packed as it runs only every half hour!

Out of interest, do you keep an eye on the consultations on the TfL website, and if you do, did you respond to the consultation on the SL14 to suggest it starting in either Waltham Abbey or Loughton with your reasons why you think it should be extended? If you didn't then you can't complain.

 

[Thirteen]

The 131 is now using Wrightbus StreetDeck Electroliner, was this always planned as it was already had some electric buses with the BYD Enviro400 although I wonder if those are fully transferring to the 57. I have seen the 200 use the odd Electroliner but only rarely.

 

[Mattplans]

Did any bus stops close because of the withdrawl of the 472?

 

[Instinct04]

Not without 4 tracking no. But Tottenham Hale and Northumberland Park lack a platform 1 since that 3rd track was installed (Meridian Water opened without a platform 1) , which is silly and surely can't last like that for decades!

No it cannot. The shuttle itself is ok, but I would have gone further and connected the track at the north end to the mainline.

I would have also installed a passing loop somewhere along the line too, and I would move the bishops Stortford - Stratford service that stops at Northumberland park to Meridian Water, to give that station a northbound link.

I did see that but very concerned about such a route, at peak times it would never be reliable and be very slow. When I lived in Edmonton, my secondary school was in Enfield and Mum took me via Meridian Way. The minute we left the house lead to some very different journey times. 7:50am - the drive took less than 20 minutes, leave at 8am - always over half hour without fail, enough to make me late!

The sections along Mollison Avenue and Watermead way (which has an unused lane, which I think is for emergency vehicles only) should be fine.

The problem would be along the Meridian Way section, particularly between Meridian Water Station and Ponders End (where the roundabout is with the Lea Valley Road. That section of the road is much narrower.

I see places for bus stops that have been safeguarded along Meridian Way, just next to MW station.

Not sure how to get around that problem..

I think a bi directional bus lane (going in the peak direction ie. south in the morning and north in the evening) could be done along the watermead way section.

Sadly these MPs will never argue for it but really these limited stop buses need to provide new cross-boundary options. So like until around 1990, London's buses need to start from Waltham Abbey and Cheshunt before considering such a route like the Enfield MP said. A lot of the traffic comes from the steadily growing built up area around Greater London and the only way to really fix that is by TFL buses covering all towns within the full London built up area.

I agree with this. Also north - east connections in this area of London are crap as well.

Somewhere as close as Chingford (which I can acctually see from a relatives house, across the Lea valley) is not very easy to get to.

The only real link is the 313 from Ponders End, which is at best every 20 minutes. I know it uses double deckers now but this route is often very packed.

TFL are proposing a superloop bus route along this section though, from Barnet to somewhere in Chingford (probably hatch as that’s where the SL14 is proposed to go). This will finally relieve the overcrowded 313.

A bit like the proposed SL14 - Chingford Hatch to Stratford, that would've been much more useful if it started in either Waltham Abbey or Loughton. The former having no direct bus at all and the later having the 397 which finishes by 7:30pm and in the day is often packed as it runs only every half hour!

I would propose that the 215 extends up to Waltham Abbey at its current frequency.

I know the 505 used to run down Sewardstone Road on Saturdays only, but I think having a TFL service would be much easier and beneficial for the residents.

I think the 317 should either go to Cheshunt station, or the Brookfield centre. The former has no direct link to Waltham Cross Or Enfield, and the latters links could be improved massively.

 

[Instinct04]

Out of interest, do you keep an eye on the consultations on the TfL website, and if you do, did you respond to the consultation on the SL14 to suggest it starting in either Waltham Abbey or Loughton with your reasons why you think it should be extended? If you didn't then you can't complain.

I most definitely do.

I did see that but very concerned about such a route, at peak times it would never be reliable and be very slow. When I lived in Edmonton, my secondary school was in Enfield and Mum took me via Meridian Way.

I think that the stops would probably be at:

Enfield Island Villiage
Brimsdown Station
Ponders End/Mollison Avenue (to connect with route 313 and the planned superloop bus along lea valley Road)
Lea Valley Lesuire Complex (either building new stops along Meridian Way, or have the bus divert in to serve the pre-existing W8 stop)
Meridian Water Station
Northumberland Park station
Tottenham Hale Station.

 

[Mark L]

Did any bus stops close because of the withdrawl of the 472?

No. All are served by other routes as well as the N472.

 

[aron2smith]

Out of interest, do you keep an eye on the consultations on the TfL website, and if you do, did you respond to the consultation on the SL14 to suggest it starting in either Waltham Abbey or Loughton with your reasons why you think it should be extended? If you didn't then you can't complain.

I respond to consultations of theirs that interest me and that included the SL14 and Meridian Water ones. But to say no one can complain if they don't respond to these things is ridiculous.

The SL14 as it is, is a limited stop 158, it offers hardly anything new and no new bus priority seems to be proposed. I have a distant relative in Chingford Hatch, the 212 and 357 are perfectly adequate for the area. Overall, Chingford needs better connections to most places, especially to its north and west by bus including cross-boundary. Superloop could help fix this if TFL were a bit more imaginative, including in trying to provide services that encourage modal shift in the areas surrounding London, the areas that cause London's traffic issues in the first place.

Still baffled how and why TFL, Essex and Herts don't work together better on transport and other shared strategic issues.

SL14 could've been Waltham Cross to Stratford via Waltham Abbey and Walthamstow and the persumably still happening Superloop route between Barnet and Chingford could've been Potters Bar to Loughton via Barnet and Enfield. Would've provided several new and enhanced connections in one go, rather than fully duplicating what exists already.

I'm thinking they should look at an old Greenline map and suddenly the lost connections in Outer London and the neighbouring areas becomes a bit more clear.

The lack of a strategic and regional authority that coordinates what London is doing and what its wider commuter area is doing seriously undermines any efforts from TFL.