Cycles at Stations: Red Rear Light Safety Risk?

[electrostar357]

This thread has made me chuckle somewhat.

I don't know whether it's because I deal with a different type of passenger with a bicycle, but in general I've never experienced an issue with asking somebody to switch off their red bicycle light. I ask and explain why and they comply. They become regular faces on the route and after being asked once maybe twice, they learn and the next time you see them that light goes off. If they can't switch it off, they'll invariably stand with the bike perpendicular to the platform edge to reduce the light's visibility.

It's all in the approach.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

I got asked by the lady on the southbound Thameslink platform at St Pancras the other day to turn off my front battery light; it's so feeble you can hardly see it at night, let alone on a brightly lit platform. The St Pancras people seem very conscientious in my experience - they are one of the few people that vigorously enforce the no bikes between 4pm and 7pm rule.

 

[Russel]

I use a mobility scooter with brake lights that cannot be switched off and have staff yap at me about this semi regularly, including like ten hours ago. It seems to always be in the Elizabeth line core. Not my problem imo.

So you think it's safe to have something with red lights which can't be switched off in an environment where red lights mean stop?

All it takes is to be poorly positioned on the platform and for a driver of a passing train to think the red lights is a member of staff trying to get the train to stop in an emergency situation and for them to slam on the emergency brakes causing injuries to passengers on board the train.

But I guess that would be the fault of the driver as it isn't your problem?

I get this at open air stations, but in the Elizabeth Line core, where the platforms are obscured by doors, the mobility scooter lights will be at almost ground level and probably obscured by other passengers anyway, I think we may be overstating the perceived risk in this instance...

 

[whoosh]

You're the one who suggested purple... Whatever you've been smoking, please pass it round

Having different colours for signals and those shown by platform staff will simply introduce confusion. Green means go and red means stop.

Can't wait to have a day taken off my job to have a briefing on the new purple hand signal - someone might well get rest day work out of covering it as well.
Or maybe a briefing payment instead.
And all those rule books needing to be republished...

And then after all that additional cost to the railway, some kid is going to have a purple glow stick on fireworks night, or after going to the fair, and the parent is going to come on here perplexed - "Purple?! Purple?! I mean, I can understand cyclists with red light lights being told to turn them off, but to be told to put your purple glow stick in your pocket whilst on the platform?! This country...!!!"


[Although, of course, 'any colour light waved violently' falls under current rules, and so maybe actually do keep your glow sticks in your pockets on platforms as well, yeah?]

 

[electrostar357]

I got asked by the lady on the southbound Thameslink platform at St Pancras the other day to turn off my front battery light; it's so feeble you can hardly see it at night, let alone on a brightly lit platform. The St Pancras people seem very conscientious in my experience - they are one of the few people that vigorously enforce the no bikes between 4pm and 7pm rule.

That's the route I sometimes work on. I don't bother with the front white lights, it's the red ones. With St Pancras and Farringdon being curved platforms, seeing a red light jump out at you as you're rounding the curves coming up off the ECML going south or heading north at St Pan or Farringdon in general isn't what a driver really wants to see.

Asking is becoming less frequent now as people learn and adapt.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect most people probably simply never thought of this. While it won't catch everyone as some people wander round in a dream world, clear, prominent signage near entrances with a direct instruction of "please turn off or cover your red cycle light when on the station" would help. There are enough poster sites on the railway that contain largely pointless things like a load of duplicates of various Railcard posters just so the frame isn't left empty, stick it in some of those.

It'd also be nice if cycle manufacturers that make dynamo lighting with capacitors fitted them with an off switch, though as someone upthread said you can always cover it with a piece of clothing - but to get people to do that they need to be aware that there's a problem.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Perhaps the “See it, say it, sorted” announcement could be extended to include “…but if you’ve got a red light on your bicycle or mobility scooter make sure it’s turned off so nobody can see it, sorted”?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps the “See it, say it, sorted” announcement could be extended to include “…but if you’ve got a red light on your bicycle or mobility scooter make sure it’s turned off so nobody can see it, sorted”?

I did deliberately not say adding it to waffle on announcements as that's already excessive. But using existing "wasted" poster sites that just contain "filler" posters would seem to be an easy way to publicise it.

 

[321362]

I have taken my bike on train journeys for years and have never turned off my back light, had no idea it could be an issue, but admittedly most of the journeys were in broad daylight. I don't think I've ever caused a delay...

It'd also be nice if cycle manufacturers that make dynamo lighting with capacitors fitted them with an off switch, though as someone upthread said you can always cover it with a piece of clothing - but to get people to do that they need to be aware that there's a problem.

My bike, a cannondale, has a capacitor dynamo which has an offswitch. Haven't had a dynamo bike before so no idea how standard this is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My bike, a cannondale, has a capacitor dynamo which has an offswitch. Haven't had a dynamo bike before so no idea how standard this is.

Neither of mine have an off switch on the rear, though both do on the front.

 

[Tester]

I did deliberately not say adding it to waffle on announcements as that's already excessive. But using existing "wasted" poster sites that just contain "filler" posters would seem to be an easy way to publicise it.

Hopefully nobody will be along to say that audible announcements are necessary for vision impaired cyclists.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hopefully nobody will be along to say that audible announcements are necessary for vision impaired cyclists.

In the end this is just something that's about reducing a problem. Like most things it needn't be perfect - if it did (i.e. these red lights were causing a hazard rather than an irritation to drivers) you'd need to take much harsher action e.g. security guards to enforce it.

See also pick up/set down only which largely does not require enforcement unless you get obsessive about it. It's just about reducing a problem to the point it isn't really a problem any more, and it's largely only a problem because people don't realise it is.

 

[z444z]

Having different colours for signals and those shown by platform staff will simply introduce confusion. Green means go and red means stop.

Not really, surely it would reduce the risk of a signal meaning “stop NOW” being confused for a signal meaning “stop before me”?

 

[Ediswan]

This is a relatively modern problem. Historically, when bike lights used costly primary cells, most riders would have turned their lights off to save money.

 

[Krokodil]

See also pick up/set down only which largely does not require enforcement unless you get obsessive about it. It's just about reducing a problem to the point it isn't really a problem any more, and it's largely only a problem because people don't realise it is.

And when enough people cotton on to it that it becomes a problem and overcrowds your trains, you simply issue a Not To Call order for Reading and overcarry them to Swindon.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is a relatively modern problem. Historically, when bike lights used costly primary cells, most riders would have turned their lights off to save money.

Yes, true. While dynamos aren't new, dynamos that use capacitors to keep the rear light lit at junctions (a great safety feature) very much are, basically because it's only possible with LEDs. That's another reason it might not occur to people. Some might not even have noticed that their bike has that feature or how long it stays lit for.

And when enough people cotton on to it that it becomes a problem and overcrowds your trains, you simply issue a Not To Call order for Reading and overcarry them to Swindon.

And give them a Penalty Fare for their trouble

 

[edwin_m]

I get this at open air stations, but in the Elizabeth Line core, where the platforms are obscured by doors, the mobility scooter lights will be at almost ground level and probably obscured by other passengers anyway, I think we may be overstating the perceived risk in this instance...

That might make it worse. The light might still be visible for a short period from the approaching train between blocking by the door structures, but it would be harder for a driver to discern that it was a cycle light rather than an emergency signal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That might make it worse. The light might still be visible for a short period from the approaching train between blocking by the door structures, but it would be harder for a driver to discern that it was a cycle light rather than an emergency signal.

In the Lizzie core it'd be all ATO and an emergency stop would be given by operating the stop button on the platform, wouldn't it? Waving a red light would take longer than operating this button and would be less likely to succeed, so would be a really poor way to do it.

 

[Krokodil]

With the Lizzie line it could just be about educating people for when they're boarding at non-core stations

 

[edwin_m]

In the Lizzie core it'd be all ATO and an emergency stop would be given by operating the stop button on the platform, wouldn't it? Waving a red light would take longer than operating this button and would be less likely to succeed, so would be a really poor way to do it.

Depends how close someone is to the button at the time they become aware of an emergency.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends how close someone is to the button at the time they become aware of an emergency.

It doesn't depend on that at all. Because you can guarantee the train will be stopped immediately the button is pressed, and it will take a nonzero amount of time for someone to find something to show a red light, and because there's a risk of the driver not seeing and of a delay while they respond to it, seeking and using the emergency stop button on a platform that has those buttons will always be the safer choice than waving red lights at people.

If you want to be of most help on such a platform, always make a point of looking where it is when you go onto the platform rather than trying to see if you can show red using your phone torch (you can't, by the way). And of course staff would always know the location of the button.

 

[Full Standing]

I think this is something that could be done with being put on the bike policy on all the TOC's website.

I second that. Wishful thinking, but maybe someone responsible for the cycle policies reads this.

Or, perhaps, do you think that proactively contacting National Rail and suggesting this to be included may be useful?

I do not have high hopes for the proportion of people bringing bikes onto the railway that have read the bike policy.

Sadly, I think that you are in the right here. But, on the other hand, there are definitely some people reading the policy. When I took my bike on a train in the UK for the first time, I've checked out the cycle policy of the TOCs I was travelling with. If the red light issue had been mentioned, this thread wouldn't exist

I do get the impression that it is more common on the continent, where dynamo lighting setups are more common, to see people walking their cycles along the platform or boarding trains with the lights still turned on and even flashing as they do when you roll the bike along at low speed. Presumably drivers in countries like Germany and NL are more used to it, or maybe they don't have a policy of 'red lamp = stop' and have other ways for staff to stop trains in emergencies.

Having frequently travelled on German trains, I tend to agree.

 

[Krokodil]

Does anyone else remember seeing it signed or published somewhere? I'm sure that I do, but I can't find where.

 

[bramling]

Does anyone else remember seeing it signed or published somewhere? I'm sure that I do, but I can't find where.

I’ve definitely seen it in GTR’s cycle policy, and I’m pretty sure I’ve seen it on a poster.

It’s pretty common sense really though, especially if the light is bright like some modern cycle lamps are.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s pretty common sense really though, especially if the light is bright like some modern cycle lamps are.

Only to those who know the railway. It's not common sense to the general public who will think about roads and how they work.

 

[renegademaster]

best solution is to eliminate the risk.

Trying to eliminate risk by depending on perfect behaviour of customers is not good risk management.

 

[bramling]

Only to those who know the railway. It's not common sense to the general public

I’d say it’s pretty common sense not to be wandering round a railway station with *any* form of bright light, which would include cycle lamps. Though of course we’ve already just had to have someone on here who feels they have some kind of right to do so.

It’s quite reasonable for staff to speak to people about this, though they should do so politely, not an “oi turn your light off” type exchange.

 

[8ace]

Does anyone else remember seeing it signed or published somewhere? I'm sure that I do, but I can't find where.

I saw it on a poster sat outside Worthing station on Saturday.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’d say it’s pretty common sense not to be wondering round a railway station with *any* form of bright light, which would include cycle lamps.

Shining one directly at a driver I would agree. But not just carrying a light that is usually less bright than a train headlamp or station lighting.

We know railways, the general public don't. It's clearly an issue so just communicate it effectively and don't get hung up on what might or might not be common sense. See also barking at people about the yellow line.

It’s quite reasonable for staff to speak to people about this, though they should do so politely, not an “oi turn your light off” type exchange.

Staff should always be polite to passengers unless they are committing an offence, being abusive or are in immediate danger or causing someone else to be in which case removing the threat is a priority. A bicycle light is none of those things, at worst it causes delay by stopping a train unnecesarily. So yes, ask for it to be resolved, and explain why.

 

[Russel]

I’d say it’s pretty common sense not to be wandering round a railway station with *any* form of bright light, which would include cycle lamps. Though of course we’ve already just had to have someone on here who feels they have some kind of right to do so.

It’s quite reasonable for staff to speak to people about this, though they should do so politely, not an “oi turn your light off” type exchange.

Regarding common sense, just remember how many people don't bother locking train toilets after themselves...