Crewe to Chester. How can electrification be utilised?

[northwichcat]

A 350 could run Crewe to Chester in 19 or 20 minutes. Even a Class 37 has been known to do Crewe - Chester in under 18 minutes (with liberal interpretation of some speed limits, or so I was told...). Easily enough time for a Crewe - Chester - Crewe round trip in less than 50 minutes. If Chester electrification does ever go ahead, it is likely that there will be consequential changes to the WCML timetable .

I agree that the WCML timetable will change but the LM Crewe-London service will have to fit around the express services, as it does currently. The (North Wales-)Chester-Crewe-London is interworked with both the Manchester-Crewe-London and the Chester-Crewe shuttle so Manchester-Crewe-London and Chester-Crewe-Trent Valley-London can't fit in nicely with an extended stop at Crewe in one direction.

ORR have even said in the past the through LM Crewe-London service not only doesn't have priority but is effectively open access and may have to be broken down in to shorter services if WCML paths become limited.

 

[jones_bangor]

How would IEP free up 67s?

I was referring to mark 3's there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A five car 175, indeed a rare sighting.

Sounds like an all in one answer to ATWs capacity issues.

 

[simonmpoulton]

5-car 175 = Hardly rare on Sundays to be fair, particularly on the Holyhead route.

 

[merlodlliw]

5-car 175 = Hardly rare on Sundays to be fair, particularly on the Holyhead route.

which services do these 5 car 175s run on, Holyhead/ Manchester?,plus two or three carriages will be running separate,what about fare collection? suppose there is capacity, as VT run all the Holyhead late morning to past middle day services.

Bob

 

[pablo]

Returning to thread. No-one has mentioned that Merseyrail could do a semi-fast to Crewe by extending each alternate Chester service, if given a few dual voltage 319s. They could take over ATW's half-hourly shuttle slots. The timings match up perfectly at present. In fact I can't run fast enough from P1 to P7 at Chester to catch the non-connection! :-x No need for VT or LM to alter anything except put on a few 390s instead of Voyagers.

 

[Bevan Price]

Returning to thread. No-one has mentioned that Merseyrail could do a semi-fast to Crewe by extending each alternate Chester service, if given a few dual voltage 319s. They could take over ATW's half-hourly shuttle slots. The timings match up perfectly at present. In fact I can't run fast enough from P1 to P7 at Chester to catch the non-connection! :-x No need for VT or LM to alter anything except put on a few 390s instead of Voyagers.

Anyone know if a 319 will fit into the Merseyrail tunnels ?

Bevan

 

[IanXC]

Anyone know if a 319 will fit into the Merseyrail tunnels ?

Bevan

If they don't, at some point it may be possible to obtain some 313s for this service as I'm pretty sure they fit?

 

[pablo]

It's very easy to look up the answers.

319s: The two outer cars are the same dims as 507/508s. The two inners are 4" longer than the outers and also the 507/508s. H & W are all the same. So, it's feasible but it would need a nice expensive gauging survey.

A class 315 has exactly the same dims as a 507/8 (and fitted power) so a dual voltage version would do it. Trouble is it's reaching it's sell-by-date. See if 319s fit?

Curiously, although 313s look exactly like 507/8s the middle car is actually 4" longer than the outers, just like the 319s. Also, they are getting a bit long in the tooth now. By time C-C gets electrified, the whole fleet 507/8 is due to have been replaced - with what?

I guess bogie centres and a host of other factors come into it as well.

Any road, it's a purfectly viable proposition if Daft, Merseytravel and the TOCs see senSe.

 

[Holly]

In my opinion, no one one from Chester wants to spend four hours in a train to Euston.
Forget Hooton & LM to Chester, unless it is written into new contracts,ATW would of course object for the next seven no growth years, as would Merseytravel.

To some people price is everything, time hardly matters.

Also, isn't there room for some horse trading here?
LM agrees Merseyrail goes to Crewe if Merseyrail agrees LM comes to Chester and Hooton. And both agree ATW can take a hike as to services entirely within England. At the right contractual moment of course.

Unless perhaps WAG stumps up for electrification of Wrexham-Saltney, that would change everything. Now there's an idea.

 

[tbtc]

Returning to thread. No-one has mentioned that Merseyrail could do a semi-fast to Crewe by extending each alternate Chester service

I've suggested it in the past, it makes a lot of sense, especially with the replacement Merseyrail units being dual voltage (compatible) - whilst these won't be built for a few years, neither will the Chester line be wired, so we're talking a few years in the future
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

virgin are not going to throw away their new first class goldmine at chester to lm

If the two franchises are merged together (well, the "New Street" part of LM joining the West Coast franchise, with the "Moor Street" part joining Chiltern) then this isn't an issue.

The "goldmine" isn't Virgin's either, its for our meddling politicians to hand away to the highest bidder at the next round of franchises...

The North Wales coast line is an INTERNATIONAL line

...because it serves a ferry port that used to have a lot of train passengers?

By the same token, should we be running express services from London to Heysham for the lucrative Isle of Man market? Plenty ports have no London links...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Anyway, your "chip on the shoulder" issues about North Wales have been exposed previously

I love your mentality. Funny how when I suggest stock be reallocated from any other line (e.g. diesel 158s on the electrified Lymington shuttle, three coach 185s on the Windermere shuttle) I don't get accused of having a chip on my shoulder about England :roll:

Virgin couldn't give up their Voyagers, it seems most of their services going through Crewe are made up of Voyagers!!

Ignoring the London - Manchester, London - Liverpool and London - Glasgow services, maybe...

There will be plenty spare when IEP happens.

So what is going to haul your knackered old Mk 3s by the time IEP arrives? As said, 67s won't keep to Voyager times, plus you'd need the expense of sorting the doors out on supperanuated stock...

As has been said before the last time this proposal was aired, it's not just the Irish market via Holyhead that is being served - there is a growing market in North Wales as well as holiday traffic to the coastal resorts and the student market centred on Bangor University. I see these N.Wales services frequently, and they are often well-loaded/QUOTE]

But are they well loaded with London passengers? There are no direct trains from North Wales to Liverpool/ Yorkshire/ Scotland... why is there the assumption by some that the only market is for London or Cardiff?

I doubt the WAG would be able or willing to sponsor electrification along the coast from Chester

They seem to have been outmanouvered by Westminster - the WAG want more powers, but get put in the awkward position of having the responsibility of having to stump up for electrification to Holyhead/ Swansea. Be careful what you wish for...

it took well over 90 minutes longer than the Euston/Chester & DMU to Wrexham

A much longer journey, sure, but as with WSMR there are some who want a direct train and some who want a faster journey (which may involve a change en route).

As for London links, I'm sure there's a London market from the Wirral peninsula (much bigger population that anywhere on the North Wales coast), why no suggestions of direct trains from Euston to Birkenhead?

 

[northwichcat]

By the same token, should we be running express services from London to Heysham for the lucrative Isle of Man market? Plenty ports have no London links...

There's also Isle of Man ferries from Liverpool.

Given Ireland's only real North-South service is Cork to Dublin it would be easier for passengers from London wanting to go to Dublin not by plane to go via Holyhead opposed to do a South Wales originating crossing.

However, I do think Holyhead should have more of a range of services - at the moment it's London, Birmingham and Cardiff with no direct links to Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, Warrington and Preston.

I also think that's an issue for Manchester Airport services. Edinburgh, Newcastle, Middlesbrough, Glasgow and Cleethorphes can have a direct Airport services yet try to get to the Airport from a lot of places less than 20 miles from the Airport and it's difficult.

 

[merlodlliw]

A much longer journey, sure, but as with WSMR there are some who want a direct train and some who want a faster journey (which may involve a change en route). end quote TBTC

Depends on the fare I suppose, but it sounds like almost six hours Euston to Holyhead

As for London links, I'm sure there's a London market from the Wirral peninsula (much bigger population that anywhere on the North Wales coast), why no suggestions of direct trains from Euston to Birkenhead?[/QUOTE]

The Wirral is populous in parts,but other parts on the West are not so populated, however WMB is only 320K, Lime Street & Chester have an hourly service to London, but where in Birkenhead would you find a spare platform above ground presumably, never noticed any call for a service.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

but where in Birkenhead would you find a spare platform above ground presumably, never noticed any call for a service.

At Hooton (park & ride, big car park, already supported by Cheshire council, station just upgraded). Handy for M53. Local connections into Merseyrail.
Plenty of business travel in South Wirral (at least as much as from Wrexham).
ATW will tell you that more passengers arrive at Chester from this direction than any other.

 

[jones_bangor]

I love your mentality. Funny how when I suggest stock be reallocated from any other line (e.g. diesel 158s on the electrified Lymington shuttle, three coach 185s on the Windermere shuttle) I don't get accused of having a chip on my shoulder about England :roll:

Envious eyes over ATW and Virgin stock serving WAles. First you'll want the Voyagers, then there'll be a more deserving home for the 175s.......

But are they well loaded with London passengers? There are no direct trains from North Wales to Liverpool/ Yorkshire/ Scotland... why is there the assumption by some that the only market is for London or Cardiff?

Yes, they are well loaded with London passengers - or passengers that get off at Crewe for WCML services North and to Birmingham.

They seem to have been outmanouvered by Westminster - the WAG want more powers, but get put in the awkward position of having the responsibility of having to stump up for electrification to Holyhead/ Swansea.

Quoting from the Western Mail: "TWICE as much public money is spent on transport for every resident of London as is spent for every person in Wales, it has emerged.

Treasury documents show the gulf between capital spending on new roads and rail lines is even wider, with London getting almost three times more per head of population than Wales.

Experts said that if Wales enjoyed the same level of transport spending as London, it would be possible to electrify all of the South Wales Valleys Lines, the North Wales mainline to Holyhead and the entire London mainline to Swansea."

Time for Wales to demand its fair share me thinks!

As for London links, I'm sure there's a London market from the Wirral peninsula (much bigger population that anywhere on the North Wales coast), why no suggestions of direct trains from Euston to Birkenhead?

Well I wouldn't have a problem with that - maybe someone will set up an open access.

You know full well that the population of the North WAles Coast is much BIGGER than the Wirral peninsula don't you? Or do you needs some facts!?

The Metropolitan Borough of Wirral is a metropolitan borough of Merseyside, in North West England. It has a population of 311,200.

Isle of Anglesey 68,800
Gwynedd 118,600
Conwy 111,400
Denbighshire 96,700
Flintshire 149,700
Wrexham 132,700

Do you need help with the maths?

 

[Rhydgaled]

You know full well that the population of the North WAles Coast is much BIGGER than the Wirral peninsula don't you? Or do you needs some facts!?

You know tbtc said anywhere? The way it reads to me is tbtc was saying the population of the Wirral peninsula is larger than any single North Wales settlement, not the population of North Wales added together. That wasn't really a fair comparison though.

Another thought though, if you could extend the Chiltern 67s from Marylebone over the Midland Metro lines from Birmingham Moor Street to Wolverhampton (a new-build link would be needed to avoid street running at the Wolverhampton end of that) the LHCS could take over the Birmingham - Holyhead workings (provided you sort out the Cambrian diagrams so they don't need to interwork with Holyhead - Birminghams). That would give Wrexham/Bangor/Holyhead etc. a 2-hourly direct service to Marylebone. You could then mainly cut back the ICWC Holyhead/Bangor - Euston services to Chester, leaving 1 Pendolino drag each way in the am peak, and the same in the evening peak. The biggest problem I see with that is finding rolling stock of sufficient capacity (in sufficient numbers) to run extra Chester - Holyhead trains in place of the ICWC trains. It might well be easier to keep the London services going to Euston via Crewe and drag Pendos from Chester all day I think.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

...dig out the tunnel, clear away the car park and rebuild Woodside.

The population of the whole of North Wales may be greater than one single metropolitan borough but the population density means a far greater number of them will be easily able to access that service. It makes far more economic sense to electrify 10 miles of line and buld a new station (with greater retail potential) with 300'000 people within 5 miles of it and linked to a comprehensive underground system, rather than electrify the whole coastal route which actually only serves a few medium sized towns and villages. Looking at it logically it makes much greater business sense to electrify to Birkenhead than it does to electrify the North Wales coast route.
Far less cost even if you build a new Birkenhead station (would imagine the staiton could even pay for itself, unlike remodelling the Brittania Bridge for OLE).
As for Holyhead being an international gateway... well it IS.. for car drivers. Most of the former 'foot passengers' fly to Dublin (or a regional airport in Ireland) much quicker and cheaper from their local UK aiport. The percentage of Holyhead ferry passengers who travel by train is tiny and even if you could do the journey from Euston to Holyhead in 2 hours you aren't going to regain the lost foot passenger trade. Electrifying the North Wales Coast line would just not be cost effective, Birkenhead would be a far more viable option. Can't see either happening though.

 

[jones_bangor]

You know tbtc said anywhere? The way it reads to me is tbtc was saying the population of the Wirral peninsula is larger than any single North Wales settlement, not the population of North Wales added together. That wasn't really a fair comparison though.

I know he said that, to TRY and make a flawed point.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...dig out the tunnel, clear away the car park and rebuild Woodside.

The population of the whole of North Wales may be greater than one single metropolitan borough but the population density means a far greater number of them will be easily able to access that service. It makes far more economic sense to electrify 10 miles of line and buld a new station (with greater retail potential) with 300'000 people within 5 miles of it and linked to a comprehensive underground system, rather than electrify the whole coastal route which actually only serves a few medium sized towns and villages. Looking at it logically it makes much greater business sense to electrify to Birkenhead than it does to electrify the North Wales coast route.
Far less cost even if you build a new Birkenhead station (would imagine the staiton could even pay for itself, unlike remodelling the Brittania Bridge for OLE).
As for Holyhead being an international gateway... well it IS.. for car drivers. Most of the former 'foot passengers' fly to Dublin (or a regional airport in Ireland) much quicker and cheaper from their local UK aiport. The percentage of Holyhead ferry passengers who travel by train is tiny and even if you could do the journey from Euston to Holyhead in 2 hours you aren't going to regain the lost foot passenger trade. Electrifying the North Wales Coast line would just not be cost effective, Birkenhead would be a far more viable option. Can't see either happening though.

Birkenhead is already electrified!! Albeit via Victorian third rail technology, but....

Holyhead IS an international gateway, like it or not, and one of the biggest arguments in favour of rail over long distance is the sheet unsustainability of air travel. European money would probably be available to subsidise the cost.


Towns and villages!! Typical English attitude.

Bangor is an University City. Rhos on Sea / Colwyn Bay is the 4th largest conurbation in Wales.

 

[Nym]

Deleted...

Also, look at how big it is in GB, not Wales, not England, de-volution hasn't reached the rail network yet, when it does, then it will matter...

 

[tbtc]

WMB is only 320K

Thats still pretty big when you consider the biggest settlement on the North Wales Coast is Colwyn Bay with its 30,269 people.

There are a lot of much bigger places in Wales with no service to London.

Quoting from the Western Mail: "TWICE as much public money is spent on transport for every resident of London as is spent for every person in Wales, it has emerged.

Treasury documents show the gulf between capital spending on new roads and rail lines is even wider, with London getting almost three times more per head of population than Wales.

Experts said that if Wales enjoyed the same level of transport spending as London, it would be possible to electrify all of the South Wales Valleys Lines, the North Wales mainline to Holyhead and the entire London mainline to Swansea."

Time for Wales to demand its fair share me thinks!

Same could be said of any part of the UK (apart from maybe Scotland) - Greater London has something like 65% of all UK train journeys to/from/through it.

You know full well that the population of the North WAles Coast is much BIGGER than the Wirral peninsula don't you? Or do you needs some facts!?

The Metropolitan Borough of Wirral is a metropolitan borough of Merseyside, in North West England. It has a population of 311,200.

Isle of Anglesey 68,800
Gwynedd 118,600
Conwy 111,400
Denbighshire 96,700
Flintshire 149,700
Wrexham 132,700

Do you need help with the maths?

Okay, maybe I missed a few days of school, but I'm pretty sure that when we did Geography Wrexham didn't count as being on the North Wales Coast?

Similarly, you are counting all of the other people as living on the North Wales coast? Quite a few of those in Gwynned presumably live on (or closer to) the Pwllheli line?

Or maybe global warming means the North Wales coast has shifted around a bit?

 

[Bevan Price]

...dig out the tunnel, clear away the car park and rebuild Woodside.

The population of the whole of North Wales may be greater than one single metropolitan borough but the population density means a far greater number of them will be easily able to access that service. It makes far more economic sense to electrify 10 miles of line and buld a new station (with greater retail potential) with 300'000 people within 5 miles of it and linked to a comprehensive underground system, rather than electrify the whole coastal route which actually only serves a few medium sized towns and villages. Looking at it logically it makes much greater business sense to electrify to Birkenhead than it does to electrify the North Wales coast route.
Far less cost even if you build a new Birkenhead station (would imagine the staiton could even pay for itself, unlike remodelling the Brittania Bridge for OLE).

They could even call it Birkenhead Woodside, and have through trains to Paddington. Oh, I forgot - they closed it in 1967.........

 

[tbtc]

Holyhead IS an international gateway, like it or not, and one of the biggest arguments in favour of rail over long distance is the sheet unsustainability of air travel. European money would probably be available to subsidise the cost

Ah, European Money... the last resort of an unprofitable idea...

The railway had a lot of ferry passengers twenty years ago. Times have changed. Maybe one day the Ryanair passengers will move back to the railways, but in the short/middle term thats a little fanciful still...

Towns and villages!! Typical English attitude.

Bangor is an University City. Rhos on Sea / Colwyn Bay is the 4th largest conurbation in Wales.

Biggest town on the coast has a population of 30,000.

Bangor may be a city, but one with only 15,000 residents. Should St Davids have a train service to London?

Meanwhile, if you want to compare "conurbation" sizes then why no London trains to/from the Cardiff Valleys?

 

[Holly]

...dig out the tunnel, clear away the car park and rebuild Woodside.
...

No point in that, Woodside would be less well connected than nearby Rock Ferry, which has cheap space already electified.

But Rock Ferry really gives you very little over Hooton; and Hooton has much better car parking and road access. Spare platforms and room to build several more huge car parks (should the demand be evolve and since the existing large car park is well used already).

There might, just might, be a case for running boat trains to 12 Quays through the Birkenhead Haymarket tunnel, but that would require either a last mile diesel limp-along capability, or more likely (and cheaper) an 0-6-0 diesel shunter for the last mile (literally). A tram from Rock Ferry could work too (using the Haymarket tunnel and being compatible with the historic trams).

People travelling to Ireland either go by air (as long as it continues to be cheap) or they want to take their cars with them and the Merseyside car ferries are at least as good as the Holyhead car ferries for most people travelling between Ireland and England.

 

[merlodlliw]

Thats still pretty big when you consider the biggest settlement on the North Wales Coast is Colwyn Bay with its 30,269 people.

There are a lot of much bigger places in Wales with no service to London.



Same could be said of any part of the UK (apart from maybe Scotland) - Greater London has something like 65% of all UK train journeys to/from/through it.



Okay, maybe I missed a few days of school, but I'm pretty sure that when we did Geography Wrexham didn't count as being on the North Wales Coast?

Similarly, you are counting all of the other people as living on the North Wales coast? Quite a few of those in Gwynned presumably live on (or closer to) the Pwllheli line?

Or maybe global warming means the North Wales coast has shifted around a bit?

One can do anything with numbers, but to be fair TBTC the Wirral is a Metro Borough Council & Colwyn Bay small compared to Wrexham, is part of Conwy Borough Council, perhaps Birkenhead would be a better comparison.


Bob

 

[jones_bangor]

Similarly, you are counting all of the other people as living on the North Wales coast? Quite a few of those in Gwynned presumably live on (or closer to) the Pwllheli line?

Or maybe global warming means the North Wales coast has shifted around a bit?

Trust me, no one from Pwllheli will use the Cambrian to get to London unless they've got a serious amount of spare time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ah, European Money... the last resort of an unprofitable idea...

The railway had a lot of ferry passengers twenty years ago. Times have changed. Maybe one day the Ryanair passengers will move back to the railways, but in the short/middle term thats a little fanciful still...

We're all going to have to change our behaviour, or we really will all be under water!

Again, you just have a problem with North Wales having IC status - get over it, it ain't changing.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Towns and villages!! Typical English attitude.

That isn't a typical English attitude but the Wirral is part of a major conurbation the North Wales coast ISN'T - nothing to do with attitudes

Bangor is an University City. Rhos on Sea / Colwyn Bay is the 4th largest conurbation in Wales.[/QUOTE]

Virtually every town and city in Britain is a university city these days.
Sustainable public transport requires adequate population densities to make it viable.

http://www.statswales.wales.gov.uk/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=3647

Flintshire is the only one of the constituent North Wales counties that even remotely comes close to a viable density and could even be construed as more of a Chester catchment area (it is after all where most Flint town people go for a night out!).

In an ideal world ALL of our railway network would be electrified and every part of the country well served but unfortunately we live in a climate where economics rule. Economically, there is no justification for electrifying the North Wales coast line. There is a slight argument for electrifying through to a new Birkenhead station utilysing the Wirral Line to Green Lane then the old route through Birkenhead Town and the dock branch to the Wirral Waters development. The devleopers may even part fund it - it has more legs economically than electrifying to Holyhead.

If 'international' traffic through Holyhead does increase then it will virtually all be through the A5/A55 as opposed to rail.

 

[Greenback]

I don't really understand this argument. We should be campaigning for the best rail service possible for everyone, regardless of how many people live within an arbitrary administrative boundary. This may not include electrification for all, but electrification should not be used as a reason to down grade services either.

It's not all about London, but I see no problem with North Wales retaining an IC type service to the UK capital in line with the service it currently receives. There is a strong possibility that foot passenger ferry traffic may increase further; as fuel prices continue to rise there will be a shift from road to rail, which will further encourage foot passengers. This is the time to improve ferry connections, not the opposite!

 

[jones_bangor]

Virtually every town and city in Britain is a university city these days.Sustainable public transport requires adequate population densities to make it viable.

If 'international' traffic through Holyhead does increase then it will virtually all be through the A5/A55 as opposed to rail.

Your view that road transport continues to grow unchecked doesn't stack up against a need to be green and the rising cost of oil.

Population density....let's not forget Dublin and Ireland, which the North Wales Coast line serves!!

 

[pablo]

The Chester - Birkenhead line was four-tracked north of Hooton in the past. Reinstate it and run non-stop HOO - Rock Ferry - BKH (new).
I vote Birkenhead High Speed terminus of the north!

 

[northwichcat]

Virtually every town and city in Britain is a university city these days.

Let's not exaggerate here. Wigan and Macclesfield are not university towns, yet have a London service. Warrington, Crewe and Milton Keynes have effectively part of a University through a University Centre belonging to a full University.

Where people travel from to get to Universities depends on what the University offers and how easy it is to get there. I imagine Universities in the North attract more international students than those in the South West, because of all the regional rail links provided to Manchester Airport. I know for a fact that Huddersfield University has mainly Northern students there and if you look at Huddersfield's rail links is that a surprise.

If 'international' traffic through Holyhead does increase then it will virtually all be through the A5/A55 as opposed to rail.

The road traffic may increase but the North Wales coast road is not a Motorway, even though it's as much like a Motorway as possible without actually being one. If the traffic increases a lot then so will traffic jams and make the road a less attractive option.

National Express run Leeds-Bradford-Manchester-Manchester Airport-Liverpool-Chester-Dublin coach services, so not everyone does drive.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Your view that road transport continues to grow unchecked doesn't stack up against a need to be green and the rising cost of oil.

Population density....let's not forget Dublin and Ireland, which the North Wales Coast line serves!!

Rightly or wrongly the majority of people don't give a hoot about ' the need to be green' and any efforts to force them to give up their cars will be met with calls to change any government that tries to make them. Eventually oil may run out, things will worsen etc but that is not going to be in their lifetimes and few people look beyond that.

The present reaility - My missus regularly travels to Ireland she, tried the rail route via Holyhead for a change and came back saying 'NEVER AGAIN'. I am pretty certain that the Holyhead route will not be a major route for non-car travelling passengers to travel between Ireland and the UK in anyone's lifetime here. So, it does not serve Dublin and Ireland as a viable rail route (a rail tunnel just might but that is even less likely).
It's not like I am opposed to improvements to any rail line but there are far more pressing and critical needs for what is a limited budget than spending it on what was never a particularly major or well patronised rail route.
Even going to Rhyl on holiday when cars were far fewer and people actually went to places like Rhyl and Prestatyn for week in a caravan, a two car DMU tended to suffice.