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Freedom Pass to become buses only?

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aron2smith

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That sounds like every big city in the country to be honest. Have you actually attempted to drive in Manchester or Birmingham?
I don't drive at all. I did mention Birmingham but not Manchester. Took the bus from Bolton to Bury and Bury to Rochdale on separate trips a while back and thought the roads there were quiet. South of Manchester, Hyde, Stockport and anywhere near the M60 seemed bad like London though. The uncoordinated roadworks seem to always be the culprit. The centre of Manchester seems a lot calmer these days but Piccadilly Gardens is not setup for the huge numbers of buses it gets!
 
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Deerfold

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Not anywhere to the same extent. Doesn't help that London's transport system is really fragmented around the edges in the commuter areas, leaving larger numbers of people than it looks, with no choice but to drive everywhere. Most parts of the country at least have some space between each town or city. South East England isn't like that. Bristol, Birmingham and Liverpool amongst others are busy but things actually move at a decent pace at least. Places like Devon, rush hour barely exists at all outside Exeter.
I've spent over an hour on a bus on the Headrow in Leeds. I could have been home in less than that time on the train
 
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AlterEgo

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Londoners aren't allowed to moan because "there's always someone worse off" - one of the more poisonous parts of Britbrain which explains so aptly why this country is in the state it is in.
 

Haywain

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Londoners aren't allowed to moan because "there's always someone worse off" - one of the more poisonous parts of Britbrain which explains so aptly why this country is in the state it is in.
The problem with much of the moaning from Londoners around transport is that it tends to be based on how hard done by they are compared to the rest of the country. Whereas the rest of the country sees a city which has better and more integrated public transport than most.
 

lewesroad

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Not anywhere to the same extent. Doesn't help that London's transport system is really fragmented around the edges in the commuter areas, leaving larger numbers of people than it looks, with no choice but to drive everywhere. Most parts of the country at least have some space between each town or city. South East England isn't like that. Bristol, Birmingham and Liverpool amongst others are busy but things actually move at a decent pace at least. Places like Devon, rush hour barely exists at all outside Exeter.
You clearly haven’t been to Bristol recently!
 

AlterEgo

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The problem with much of the moaning from Londoners around transport is that it tends to be based on how hard done by they are compared to the rest of the country.
It really doesn't. I don't see any in this thread for example.

Whereas the rest of the country sees a city which has better and more integrated public transport than most.
Because it is a global capital city. In this context, London's transport is not nearly as good as it ought to be, and many complaints are justified. That does not mean that public transport in the provinces isn't also poor.

No, all the squabbling is all the usual zero-sum mentality which is one of the major cultural drawbacks of this country when politicians pay attention to it.
 

Joe Paxton

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The problem with much of the moaning from Londoners around transport is that it tends to be based on how hard done by they are compared to the rest of the country. Whereas the rest of the country sees a city which has better and more integrated public transport than most.

That's not something I recognise whatsoever in commentary from Londoners about public transport.
 

Deerfold

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It really doesn't. I don't see any in this thread for example.

This would actually put over 66s in London in a worse position than those in other parts of the country.

If you live in Manchester or a rural area, a bus might be a reasonable option to reach your nearest town or city centre, indeed it may be the only option. But buses just aren't a serious form of transport from most London suburbs into the centre, to the point where they are, effectively, unusable.

From where I live it would be around two hours to the West End or City.
As I posted separately, West Yorkshire sees similar differences in times to get to Leeds rather than a local run-down town centre.
 

aron2smith

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Because it is a global capital city. In this context, London's transport is not nearly as good as it ought to be, and many complaints are justified. That does not mean that public transport in the provinces isn't also poor.

No, all the squabbling is all the usual zero-sum mentality which is one of the major cultural drawbacks of this country when politicians pay attention to it.
I look at the lack of Leeds Trams and the reluctance to build Crossrail 2 as well as the reluctance to build new infrastructure all across the country as apart of the same cause, it's all the same problem. London area may be at a higher level but it's still held back from its full potential, given its size. England is way too centralised in the hands of Westminster, especially DFT and HM Treasury.

We really need a federal country where each region can fund its own projects, borrow, raise taxes and levies like we see with Nottingham's workplace parking levy which funds their trams and buses. We are going through local government reorganisation at the moment, so all areas of the country will have unitaries, combined authorities and mayors, seemingly within the next 2 years. With that and devolution, I wonder what's the point if they can't all raise their own taxes for their own priorities? Priorities that mayors will ultimately get elected on, like Tracy Brabin promising trams for Leeds and Bradford or Kim McGuiness promising the reopening of the Leamside Line to Metro operations. Things they should be able to easily do without relying on a reluctant Westminster who can't see the value in such things. Same with the Bakerloo Line extension in London or the nearby Lower Thames Crossing.

I find it really inappropriate that any major project, something like a new bridge/ tunnel or tram or metro system, what are essentially city and regional projects are left to a final say in our national Parliament. It seems so far from what reality should be. Parliament should be able to focus on national and international issues while most internal issues are left to local and regional politicians, people who are a lot more accountable in their towns, cities and regions.

Even with London, it should never have had to resort to begging the government for money to keep things running! The sheer wealth in the city, especially from services, real estate and construction, it should be able to build anything it's mayor and residents deem we need for our future regional prosperity. Something like the Freedom Pass should never have been in question in the first place as it's really an admin expense.
 

urbophile

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I've spent over an hour on a bus on the Headrow in Leeds. I could have been home in les than time on the train
Depends where your home is and how near to a station (as well as how frequent a service it has). In many cities and conurbations outside London (especially Leeds I may add) this is rare.
 

Deerfold

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Depends where your home is and how near to a station (as well as how frequent a service it has). In many cities and conurbations outside London (especially Leeds I may add) this is rare.
I said I could have done it - I already know where I live - however, I'm right on the edge of West Yorkshire. There's many places in West Yorkshire you can get to by train (or train + local bus) in an hour (including the average waiting time between trains).
 

urbophile

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I look at the lack of Leeds Trams and the reluctance to build Crossrail 2 as well as the reluctance to build new infrastructure all across the country as apart of the same cause, it's all the same problem. London area may be at a higher level but it's still held back from its full potential, given its size. England is way too centralised in the hands of Westminster, especially DFT and HM Treasury.
Most high level civil servants, and most government ministers, are based in London. Few of them will be regular commuters by public transport, certainly not on routes serving unfashionable and poorer suburbs. Those ministers and MPs who represent constituencies elsewhere will have little reason to use local transport in their own areas. So the perspective from which they make their decisions will inevitably be skewed.

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I said I could have done it - I already know where I live - however, I'm right on the edge of West Yorkshire. There's many places in West Yorkshire you can get to by train (or train + local bus) in an hour (including the average waiting time between trains).
I know that. There are also large swathes of the region poorly served, or not at all. Leeds needs and deserves a proper metro-style service. As do many other cities of course: I only mention Leeds because you did, and because it is the largest city in Europe without a rail-based local transport network.
 

Deerfold

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I know that. There are also large swathes of the region poorly served, or not at all. Leeds needs and deserves a proper metro-style service. As do many other cities of course: I only mention Leeds because you did, and because it is the largest city in Europe without a rail-based local transport network.
I'm not sure what point you're making. I was replying to comments saying that Bus passes were fine for those in the rest of the country, but not for Londoners as their buses are so bad.
 

Haywain

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Few of them will be regular commuters by public transport,
For people working in central London, that is just nonsense.
Those ministers and MPs who represent constituencies elsewhere will have little reason to use local transport in their own areas.
That will vary enormously - some MPs are in constituencies for the convenience of getting elected but a good number do actually represent areas where they live.
 

Starmill

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Londoners aren't allowed to moan because "there's always someone worse off" - one of the more poisonous parts of Britbrain which explains so aptly why this country is in the state it is in.
Personally I think everyone should moan more about public transport in the whole country. Then more might end up actually being done about improving it. The only thing I objected to was the overt case of special pleading, not the actual complaint.
I'm not sure what point you're making. I was replying to comments saying that Bus passes were fine for those in the rest of the country, but not for Londoners as their buses are so bad.
Precisely. They are not fine! They are as good as the bus service, which is almost always terrible.
 

urbophile

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For people working in central London, that is just nonsense.

That will vary enormously - some MPs are in constituencies for the convenience of getting elected but a good number do actually represent areas where they live.
I suspect that the proportion of such who live in the outer suburbs with poor rail links, or long bus journey times to central London, is fairly small. And MPs, however locally based and indeed committed, will have little cause to use public transport regularly in their local areas. London based officials and MPs will of course use the Tube, and possibly the Elizabeth line, and buses in central London perhaps. I can't see many of them struggling in from Mitcham or East Ham on the bus.
 

AlterEgo

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Most high level civil servants, and most government ministers, are based in London. Few of them will be regular commuters by public transport
They nearly all will be. They all work in or around Westminster. How do you think those civil servants get to work?
 

aron2smith

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Most high level civil servants, and most government ministers, are based in London. Few of them will be regular commuters by public transport, certainly not on routes serving unfashionable and poorer suburbs. Those ministers and MPs who represent constituencies elsewhere will have little reason to use local transport in their own areas. So the perspective from which they make their decisions will inevitably be skewed.
This is why such decisions shouldn't be up to them but elected local and regional politicians and mayors instead. For a lack of a better phrase, they have 'skin in the game' while to Whitehall, these meaningful projects and improvements are abstract at best.
 
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