Southern Region Designation- 4CIG

[Ted633]

Just a random musing I‘ve had for a number of years, and thought it was about time to ask!

The vast majority of Southern Region electric stock had its designation based on the characteristics of the unit itself (EPB, VEP, HAP etc)
One exception to this (excluding the pre-SR units) is the CIG, which is commonly referred to as Corridor Brighton (IG being the telegraph code for Brighton).
This just doesn‘t sit right with me as it doesn’t make a lot of sense! I’m sure I’ve read that the IG stands for Intermediate Guard, which makes far more sense as these were the first Corridor units with the guards area in the centre of the unit.

Is it possible that these units originally designated CIG due to the guards area, but ‘mis-information’ had changed that to the telegraph code for Brighton? (a bit like the 850v DC for the Bournemouth scheme).

Anyone able to confirm either way? Aware that Blood & Custard are on the side of the telegraph code, so I’m probably talking complete rubbish!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

According to http://extra.southernelectric.org.uk/features/data/unitdes.html#dcemu both are right; the IG does derive from the Brighton code but was used for Intermediate Guard. See quotes below.

I suspect, therefore, that there is an element of making the acronym fit when it came to designating some of the descriptions. This is a practice which is especially common in the naming of space related technology these days - space scientists have a very good sense of corny humour when it comes to naming probes, instruments and telescopes...

Big.

B uffet IG and B uffet I ntermediate G uard

e.g. 4 Big. IG was the LBSCR telegraphic code for Brighton, on which line these units were first used.

Cig.

C orridor IG and C orridor I ntermediate G uard

e.g. 4 Cig. IG was the LBSCR telegraphic code for Brighton, on which line these units were first used.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Something that has puzzled me other the years also. I generally assumed 'Intermediate Guard', but that's more to do with my era on the job perhaps? If there was any 'standard' pattern to such designations, why wasn't same applied to what we all know well as the VEP's - why not VIG? I think everyone on the job and many lay enthusiasts will have their own thoughts, and without written evidence from the time the first batch of CIG's were ordered, we can only guess.

 

[yorksrob]

Something that has puzzled me other the years also. I generally assumed 'Intermediate Guard', but that's more to do with my era on the job perhaps? If there was any 'standard' pattern to such designations, why wasn't same applied to what we all know well as the VEP's - why not VIG? I think everyone on the job and many lay enthusiasts will have their own thoughts, and without written evidence from the time the first batch of CIG's were ordered, we can only guess.

I guess they just plumped to continue the EP classification sequence. They were first introduced on the kBournemouth line, so would have been consistent with REP.

 

[D7666]

I don't disagree that use of IG telegraph code for a stock type sounds contrived but never the less that is the original reason.

Both translations are correct, but not used at the same time.

The verbose Corridor-br-IG-hton (or Buffet) was the official term when on the 1963 batch a.k.a. Phase I were now; they were Brighton line / CD units and in over simplfied terms the replacements for Pan/Pul units.

The 1970 or Phase II batch (oversimplified terms Cor/Buf/Res replacements) spread the type around more. The old IG term was then officially replaced by C-orridor I-ntermediate G-uard (or Buffet).

In that 2nd meaning of CIG it was a backronym, but nonetheless official.

I guess they just plumped to continue the EP classification sequence. They were first introduced on the kBournemouth line, so would have been consistent with REP.

Ehhhh ? Double wrong. EP 'sequence' started 15 years before Bomo line - the 1951 Cep/Bep express units and EPB suburban units - Cep and Bep were actually officially Cepb and Bepb but that did not last long. 'they' were first introduced on the Brighton line - applying both if you meant the term Cig or use of xEP, as the 1951 Cep started life on the CD (there was no Kent Coast DC then).

 

[nw1]

Ehhhh ? Double wrong. EP 'sequence' started 15 years before Bomo line - the 1951 Cep/Bep express units and EPB suburban units - Cep and Bep were actually officially Cepb and Bepb but that did not last long. 'they' were first introduced on the Brighton line - applying both if you meant the term Cig or use of xEP, as the 1951 Cep started life on the CD (there was no Kent Coast DC then).

Are CEPs as old as 1951?
EDIT: Ah, I see they are described as "1951-type" stock (on Blood and Custard) and the first 4 were introduced in 1956. Earlier than I thought!

The majority, however, were 1958-59 which is the date I had in my head.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't disagree that use of IG telegraph code for a stock type sounds contrived but never the less tat is the original reason.

Both translations are correct, but not used at thesame time.

The verbose Corridor-br-IG-hton (or Buffet) was the official term when on the 1963 batch a.k.a. Phase I were now; the were Brighton line / CD units and in over simplfied terms the replacements for Pan/Pul units.

The 1970 or Phase II batch (oversimplfied terms Cor/Buf/Res replacements) spread the type around more. The old IG term was then officially repaxled by C-orridor I-ntermediate G-uard (or Buffet).

In that 2nd meaning of CIG it was a backronym, but nonetheless official.





Ehhhh ? Double wrong. EP 'sequence' started 15 years before Bomo line - the 1951 Cep/Bep express units and EPB suburban units - Cep and Bep were actually officially Cepb and Bepb but that did not last long. 'they' were first introduced on the Brighton line - applying both if you meant the term Cig or use of xEP, as the 1951 Cep started life on the CD (there was no Kent Coast DC then).

VEP's were first introduced on the Bournemouth line. (see the post I was referring to).

I know when EPB's were introduced.

BTW, i find it sad that this thread is in the nostalgia, rather than the traction forum

 

[Ted633]

VEP's were first introduced on the Bournemouth line. (see the post I was referring to).

I know when EPB's were introduced.

BTW, i find it sad that this thread is in the nostalgia, rather than the traction forum

I wasn’t sure where to put it, but thought the Railway History & Nostalgia section was the best place.

Thanks for your answers everyone, seems they are both correct!

 

[D7666]

Are CEPs as old as 1951?
EDIT: Ah, I see they are described as "1951-type" stock (on Blood and Custard) and the first 4 were introduced in 1956. Earlier than I thought!

The majority, however, were 1958-59 which is the date I had in my head.

errr yes I meant 1951 type, they were 1956 built.

I'm not sure though 1958-1959 is 'majority' build is right wording the Phase II Cep/Bep were not ordered until 1960 and entered service from 1961 - and there were more Phase II units than prototype + pre-series + Phase I units combined.

 

[30907]

I guess they just plumped to continue the EP classification sequence. They were first introduced on the kBournemouth line, so would have been consistent with REP.

The CIGs had to be distinguished from the CEPs, but the VEPs were a new type, definitely not 4HAPs (because gangwayed throughout) and not really 4LAV derivatives (would those have been 4LAPs?), so 4VEP was as good as anything.

 

[yorksrob]

The CIGs had to be distinguished from the CEPs, but the VEPs were a new type, definitely not 4HAPs (because gangwayed throughout) and not really 4LAV derivatives (would those have been 4LAPs?), so 4VEP was as good as anything.

Indeed - and I would still say as likely, they were introduced with the REP's, so the EP link was quite understandable.

"IG" was the outlier.

 

[Helvellyn]

• BEPs/CEPs 7001-7002/7101-7104 were prototype units
• BEPs/CEPs 7003-7012/7105-7153 were Phase 1 units built for Kent electrification Phase 1
• BEPs/CEPs 7013-7022/7154-7211 were Phase 2 units built primarily for Kent electrification Phase 2
• BIGs/CIGs 7031-7048/7301-7336 were Phase 1 units built for Brighton services
• REPs/VEPs 3001-3011/7701-7720 were built for the Bournemouth Line electrification
• BIGs/CIGs 7049-7058/7337-7438 were Phase 2 units built primarily for Portsmouth services

The outlier would potentially be the TC (Trailer Control) units converted to work with the REPs, which could have been TEP (Trailer Electro-Pneumatic) if they wanted to follow the REP/VEP logic (TEP was used for 4 refurbished CEPs fitted with an unrefurbished BEP buffet car for temporary use on Portsmouth services - Temporary BEP).

 

[yorksrob]

I wasn’t sure where to put it, but thought the Railway History & Nostalgia section was the best place.

Thanks for your answers everyone, seems they are both correct!

You are quite right, but it's still sad.