Northern Conductor deal

[Mainsideman]

Does anyone have any insight as to what the current deal is looking like for Northern conductors?

Is the sunday issue finally to be sorted?

Is there any DCO/DOO involved?

 

[MoraleSponge]

Does anyone have any insight as to what the current deal is looking like for Northern conductors?

Is the sunday issue finally to be sorted?

Is there any DCO/DOO involved?

Why would DOO be involved? Surely that would be in driver t&c's?

Genuine question as I don't know much about all this stuff.

 

[185]

Why would DOO be involved? Surely that would be in driver t&c's?

Genuine question as I don't know much about all this stuff.

It was. DCO (driver releases) and Sundays inside the week for £41,000. Never made it to a vote, unsurprisingly. Both east, west and ex TPE all on a single set of conditions inc 6% comission.

 

[dodecahedron67]

I believe the DO/GC aspect was only for 195/331 and future stock. "Legacy" units would still be full guard control

 

[Mainsideman]

It was. DCO (driver releases) and Sundays inside the week for £41,000. Never made it to a vote, unsurprisingly. Both east, west and ex TPE all on a single set of conditions inc 6% comission.

So the deal was straight rejected before being put to vote?

Was the proposed method driver open conductor close?

 

[NCC-1701]

So the deal was straight rejected before being put to vote?

Was the proposed method driver open conductor close?

Yes, automatic rejection from RMT/NEC due to Northern trying to inject some form of DOO.

The proposed dispatch method was driver releases the doors and the guard performs dispatch and door close procedure to retain safety critical status.

It’s ridiculous really any form of DOO won’t work with Northerns network unless the government want to spend hundreds of millions of pounds extending the lengths of all their platforms and outfitting Northern with an ASDO system that works.

Even without the DOO inserted into the offer it was far too low and removed/changed too many T&Cs the guards would have rightfully voted it down.

 

[Geeves]

DCO seemed to suddenly appear in the small print over the weekend before the deal was meant to be accepted. My impression is that for some reason the powers that be thought no one would notice and just sign away without reading...

So yes unsurprisingly it was rejected which is a shame because seemingly it was already to be accepted (at least by the RMT as an entity) after a vote which who knows on that front.

East side would've probably voted yes despite all the alternations

 

[Mainsideman]

DCO seemed to suddenly appear in the small print over the weekend before the deal was meant to be accepted. My impression is that for some reason the powers that be thought no one would notice and just sign away without reading...

So yes unsurprisingly it was rejected which is a shame because seemingly it was already to be accepted (at least by the RMT as an entity) after a vote which who knows on that front.

East side would've probably voted yes despite all the alternations

It suprises me it was automatically rejected as I didnt think the RMT were opposed to driver open conductor close

 

[Starmill]

It suprises me it was automatically rejected as I didnt think the RMT were opposed to driver open conductor close

It has been the standard at many operators for decades. I don't think there's any doubt about it being acceptable - I think they think it isn't what the language means.

DCO seemed to suddenly appear in the small print over the weekend before the deal was meant to be accepted. My impression is that for some reason the powers that be thought no one would notice and just sign away without reading...

So yes unsurprisingly it was rejected which is a shame because seemingly it was already to be accepted (at least by the RMT as an entity) after a vote which who knows on that front.

East side would've probably voted yes despite all the alternations

It would have been interesting to see the vote split, because the pay rise for First North Western conductors to take Sundays would have almost certainly been a sore point.

As it is, given the outcome, I would expect virtually no service to continue on Sundays on most routes (worked by the ex FNW depots, that is) for the rest of 2026.

 

[LowLevel]

I happened to be in Lime Street mess room the other week and the prevailing opinion seemed to be very loudly that they would take the deal when hell froze over, or words to that effect. Particular resentment towards driver door release and Sundays.

 

[stadler]

Was it actually DCO that was proposed at Northern or just Driver Open Guard Close method. Their seems to be a some comfusion on which one was part of the deal. DCO means that the guard has no involvement in despatch or opening or closing doors. DCO is what GA use on their 720/745/755 trains. Driver Open Guard Close or even Ten Bell Despatch are not DCO and are still considered full guard operation.

 

[Chucky]

Was it actually DCO that was proposed at Northern or just Driver Open Guard Close method. Their seems to be a some comfusion on which one was part of the deal. DCO means that the guard has no involvement in despatch or opening or closing doors. DCO is what GA use on their 720/745/755 trains. Driver Open Guard Close or even Ten Bell Despatch are not DCO and are still considered full guard operation.

Driver Open Guard Close and 10 bells are still considered full guard operation... by whom?

If the driver has any involvement whatsoever in opening or closing the doors then it's clearly not "full guard operation".

 

[Mainsideman]

Was it actually DCO that was proposed at Northern or just Driver Open Guard Close method. Their seems to be a some comfusion on which one was part of the deal. DCO means that the guard has no involvement in despatch or opening or closing doors. DCO is what GA use on their 720/745/755 trains. Driver Open Guard Close or even Ten Bell Despatch are not DCO and are still considered full guard operation.

Id assume its driver open guard close? The RMT would have made a much bigger deal if it was full DCO surely

 

[jaggy]

It was DOCC. Driver open conductor close. Northern have committed to keeping the gaurd as the second safety critical member of staff on the train. With Northerns network of stations and platforms, it will be a long long time before they could possibly consider it being driver only.

 

[Horizon22]

I happened to be in Lime Street mess room the other week and the prevailing opinion seemed to be very loudly that they would take the deal when hell froze over, or words to that effect. Particular resentment towards driver door release and Sundays.

I can understand the DOO, but Sundays? At some point people need to come on board with a proper 7 day working week, properly remunerated of course for those that currently have it outside the working week.

 

[LowLevel]

I can understand the DOO, but Sundays? At some point people need to come on board with a proper 7 day working week, properly remunerated of course for those that currently have it outside the working week.

Their problem was that they would more or less earn more than the offer if they worked their booked Sundays anyway. So they're giving up elements of their job and other T&Cs, plus committing themselves to work Sundays, for give or take the same salary.

In pound signs terms don't forget they are nearby to several TfW depots who will be on significantly more and once these things are sold they are sold for good.

If they hadn't poisoned the water by trying to include something with doors in it they might have had more of a chance.

 

[Springer101]

Indeed. Personally my current earnings this financial year are on track to breach 50k come end March. I generally work all booked Sundays and a similar portion of overtime, which I don't consider excessive by any stretch (others may do much more). The recent offer certainly falls short by 4k-5k. There's simply no appetite to hand over on a silver plate what we currently have.....for less reward.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It suprises me it was automatically rejected as I didnt think the RMT were opposed to driver open conductor close

This has been an issue on Northern before, the 175s were originally driver release guard close and had to be modified.

 

[muz379]

I can understand the DOO, but Sundays? At some point people need to come on board with a proper 7 day working week, properly remunerated of course for those that currently have it outside the working week.

I think the fact that this deal which did include sundays inside the working week even got to the point of being rejected by the unions executive shows that there is a deal to be done to bring sundays inside the working week somewhere in there.

 

[Mainsideman]

Indeed. Personally my current earnings this financial year are on track to breach 50k come end March. I generally work all booked Sundays and a similar portion of overtime, which I don't consider excessive by any stretch (others may do much more). The recent offer certainly falls short by 4k-5k. There's simply no appetite to hand over on a silver plate what we currently have.....for less reward.

Which is absolutley fair, thanks for the insight

 

[Starmill]

If the driver has any involvement whatsoever in opening or closing the doors then it's clearly not "full guard operation".

There are very few places left outside of Northern where the driver's role doesn't include opening or closing doors whatsoever. Nearly all operators use some form of driver door control nowadays. Seems to have worked fine for Virgin Trains and now Avanti for over two decades to be honest.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jan 2026 ==

Indeed. Personally my current earnings this financial year are on track to breach 50k come end March. I generally work all booked Sundays and a similar portion of overtime, which I don't consider excessive by any stretch (others may do much more). The recent offer certainly falls short by 4k-5k. There's simply no appetite to hand over on a silver plate what we currently have.....for less reward.

I suspect that's exactly the point of the proposed changes though, to save money. There's no way they'll offer the equivalent to the current 125% Sundays and a further top up to cover for the fact that you're obligated to work them in the future. It's more likely they'll just keep bumping along with nothing running in Sundays.

 

[muz379]

I suspect that's exactly the point of the proposed changes though, to save money. There's no way they'll offer the equivalent to the current 125% Sundays and a further top up to cover for the fact that you're obligated to work them in the future. It's more likely they'll just keep bumping along with nothing running in Sundays.

Just soley on the matter of the Money you will always have your edge cases of people that have worked every sunday and earned significant sums of money or people on the west at Northern that haven't worked a sunday for decades and wish to continue not working them so wouldn't vote for a deal that included them in the working week at whatever price.

But ultimately if this is going to be resolved sensibly it will come down to a vote among the members and for the majority there will be a deal to be done somewhere in there that increases pensionable pay in exchange for bringing sundays inside the working week.

 

[Lg_]

If the deal had bought Sundays inside the week I assume that there would have been an additional rest day in that week to compensate?

 

[jaggy]

Yes there was additional rest days as it remained a 35 hr week.

 

[Hugo3000]

Looks like the RMT NEC have overruled Company Council as the deal has gone to a referendum without a recommendation, whilst it's noted on the email that CEC wants to reject the deal.

 

[GPR]

Not surprised.

 

[Starmill]

Looks like the RMT NEC have overruled Company Council as the deal has gone to a referendum without a recommendation, whilst it's noted on the email that CEC wants to reject the deal.

That's going to be a fun result...

 

[Horizon22]

Looks like the RMT NEC have overruled Company Council as the deal has gone to a referendum without a recommendation, whilst it's noted on the email that CEC wants to reject the deal.

I've heard the NEC have been doing this quite a bit recently around the country...

 

[ainsworth74]

I've heard that the result is due on Thursday so hopefully we'll know more soon...

 

[Horizon22]

Regarding the NEC/CEC it could be old fashioned politicking.

Whilst local council might want to reject it, perhaps the NEC wanted to put it to referendum to get a really strong “No” vote - so achieving the same outcome - which might give weight to it over and above the company council just rejecting the offer as it has the strength of the membership.

Proof will be in the outcome.