New Birmingham to Manchester link proposed- post NPR

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Am I shocked? No. But it's nice to see. I feel like it's a decent rebuttal to 'the North never gets investment' from the government, but being real, it needed to happen. I know the forum likes to (somewhat unfairly in my opinion) bash civil servants frequently, but anyone could see that HS2 to Birmingham only would not have made sense.

HS2 from London to Birmingham connects the largest two cities in England, so I am told.

 

[nr758123]

At least they didn't do the usual and announce various upgrades already in progress related to the Transpennie Upgrade as new things.

I think there's a reference somewhere to electrification between Leeds and York.

 

[mike57]

I think there's a reference somewhere to electrification between Leeds and York.

There was on the news, just heard it, makes me laugh, with the time the electrification is taking they will probably still be wheeling that old chestnut out in 5 years time.

 

[The Planner]

My full expectation is that it will be exactly the same route and therefore need exactly the same land.

The only thing that will be scaled down will be the redevelopment of Crewe station.

I am not sure of the timelines precisely because I am not involved in rail engineering, but I strongly expect something tangible on a section in 2029.

I doubt it unless they are expecting the Birmingham Manchester section to open the same time as Handsacre.

 

[cinders&ashes]

I think there's a reference somewhere to electrification between Leeds and York.

yes I read that - wondering if was an alternate route but seems no obvious choice apart from TR.

 

[Topological]

I doubt it unless they are expecting the Birmingham Manchester section to open the same time as Handsacre.

Can you spin part of the section to Handsacre as being this?

The country surely would not fall for any of that though.

They can also get some grass scraped off some fields near Manchester Airport if they really want to look like they are serious about investment in the 2029-2034 parliament.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Bee Network have missed the opportunity to have mention made in this modern version of Grimm's Fairy Tales of an aspirational rail service from Manchester to Lybster (after 2040...but no mention of how long is "after")...

 

[Chester1]

Half of us'll be dead before it happens.

I didn't want to say that as a member of the forum that still has most of the colour in their hair, but that was my first thought. I will be drawing a pension by the time this gets built. £5bn on an underground station at Piccadilly would be criminal. That is more than the entire cost of Metrolink at current construction costs.

 

[InTheEastMids]

I don't think its sensible to just assume a north-south solution that was picked as optimal in 2009 when noone had even thought about an east west line is still optimal once it is built

I agree in principle, but once politicians have decided they want to do something, they'll want results yesterday and quite literally, the line of least resistance is the alignment already in the plans and legislation.

I imagine we should see rail investment as being an allowance of about £8-10 billion a year covering all potential projects.

This is the kind of pipeline clarity the industry begs for in rail and elsewhere. It drives better behaviour and more investment from the supply chain. However, the problem is whether a UK Government of any colour has the credibility to say this. One Tory Govt butchered the flagship project of a previous one, the incoming Labour Govt rapidly cancelled A303 and MMLE. There's obviously a future scenario that is so much worse, where it all gets decided by a GB News pundit who probably can't really be bothered to turn up and do the day job.

Which is why its more important to work out how we will build rather than what we will build

I agree - Government is very good at announcing this kind of stuff. We get a list of "things that would be good if they happened". The strategic challenge for UK is not currently what to build, but how to build it cost-effectively. This doesn't get the political or media attention it needs, because any serious analysis leads (at least in part) back to the problem of Government credibility to provide consistency over the lifecycle of these kinds of major investments.

 

[camflyer]

I didn't want to say that as a member of the forum that still has most of the colour in their hair, but that was my first thought. I will be drawing a pension by the time this gets built. £5bn on an underground station at Piccadilly would be criminal. That is more than the entire cost of Metrolink at current construction costs.

I well believe that a major underground station in a city centre is going have a cost in the billions when you look at similar projects elsewhere.

 

[HSTEd]

I agree in principle, but once politicians have decided they want to do something, they'll want results yesterday and quite literally, the line of least resistance is the alignment already in the plans and legislation.

They don't want results yesterday though, they apparently want results some time in the 2040s.

And much of the route via Crewe has no legislation and would have to start the process from the beginning in any case.

 

[NCT]

They don't want results yesterday though, they apparently want results some time in the 2040s.

And much of the route via Crewe has no legislation and would have to start the process from the beginning in any case.

Phase 2a act remains. Phase 2b bill has only been paused.

 

[aron2smith]

They don't want results yesterday though, they apparently want results some time in the 2040s.

And much of the route via Crewe has no legislation and would have to start the process from the beginning in any case.

It made me really angry when I saw it say work on today's announcements won't actually start till some unspecified year in the 2030s, we need to start building this stuff right now. This government will deliver nothing at this rate and then the cycle starts again when a future government appears, just as uncertain on delivering infrastructure as this one!

 

[HSTEd]

It made me really angry when I saw it say work on today's announcements won't actually start till some unspecified year in the 2030s, we need to start building this stuff right now. This government will deliver nothing at this rate and then the cycle starts again when a future government appears, just as uncertain on delivering infrastructure as this one!

Building this project now is politically impossible.
HS2 has become so unimaginably toxic that anything associated to it would be a massive problem for the government. And it will once again look like the promise to build NPR is merely a carrot dangled on a stick to get people to give the industry what it wants, HS2.

If any further north-south high speed rail is to be built, it must come after NPR has progressed so far to make descoping or soft cancellation impossible.

 

[Tezza1978]

There still seems some uncertainty about whether the compulsory purchase powers for 2a will lapse or be extended?

The "so called Independent" /utter rag now owned by Russians that runs pro-Reform stories regularly thinks the Birmingham - Manchester line will never be built. As a newspaper its been rabidly opposed to HS2 from day 1 and I'm tired of reading its relentless attacks on it.

 

[CdBrux]

More money down the drain maybe, but blame Sunak for that, not Labour. The government have to do the political process and a new study to re-establish the case for building the line is a part of that. If Labour had inherited HS2 with Phase 2a intact, I suspect they would be pressing on with it. The fact is, they didn't. Putting something new in its place is going to cost money.

Surely there is a more or less known design for previous 2a scheme so you'd only even think to deviate from this if you were very sure you can find some significant savings worth to go through a certain amount of re-design

 

[Grimsby town]

Building this project now is politically impossible.
HS2 has become so unimaginably toxic that anything associated to it would be a massive problem for the government. And it will once again look like the promise to build NPR is merely a carrot dangled on a stick to get people to give the industry what it wants, HS2.

If any further north-south high speed rail is to be built, it must come after NPR has progressed so far to make descoping or soft cancellation impossible.

I don't think that it's particularly political issue. Its a resource issue. We simply don't have the construction capability to deliver TRU, HS2 phase 1 and NPR/phase 2 at the same time. If politics come into its probably more that NPR has more support rather than HS2 being toxic.

 

[eldomtom2]

Building this project now is politically impossible.
HS2 has become so unimaginably toxic that anything associated to it would be a massive problem for the government. And it will once again look like the promise to build NPR is merely a carrot dangled on a stick to get people to give the industry what it wants, HS2.

I have to say that I really don't think it will look like this to the public. I don't see anyone on social media talking about "what the rail industry wants", or seeing the cancellation of HS2 Phase 2 as a good thing for the North.

 

[bigmanaiq]

I didn't want to say that as a member of the forum that still has most of the colour in their hair, but that was my first thought. I will be drawing a pension by the time this gets built. £5bn on an underground station at Piccadilly would be criminal. That is more than the entire cost of Metrolink at current construction costs.

Why does it have to be underground? Not too familiar with the density around Manchester but is the original alignment into Mayfield not unused?

 

[HSTEd]

Why does it have to be underground? Not too familiar with the density around Manchester but is the original alignment into Mayfield not unused?

Mayfield is too small for a credible high speed rail station, especially if you dont want an underground railway junction to access both routes that would be needed out of central manchester.

You'd have better luck on the north side of the station, but even then it's going to be rather imposing on the surface.

 

[Topological]

Why does it have to be underground? Not too familiar with the density around Manchester but is the original alignment into Mayfield not unused?

Mayfield was accessed from the current line. There is no alignment available.

The station at Mayfield would be too short for HS2 trains if it was still available. The footprint of the station is already planned for development as part of the Manchester Mayfield scheme. They have done the demolition, but I am not sure any peramanent buildings have started work on the actual trackbed.

Having the tunnel allows the line to be built without conflict to existing lines. I do not see why the station needs to be underground. The most developed plan is a surface station with trains to Leeds reversing. Underground is only needed if you do not want reversals.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jan 2026 ==

Mayfield is too small for a credible high speed rail station, especially if you dont want an underground railway junction to access both routes that would be needed out of central manchester.

You'd have better luck on the north side of the station, but even then it's going to be rather imposing on the surface.

Don't forget that the land is reserved for the HS station at Piccadilly.

 

[HSTEd]

Don't forget that the land is reserved for the HS station at Piccadilly.

Yes, but it seems likely that if we have a surface NPR station, it is also going to be the high speed station. If its going to be on the surface is really has to be on the north side of the Piccadilly trainshed.

Now I have some sympathy with an underground station at Piccadilly to do all new services, but I expect I would have a very different idea in mind than most!

 

[Topological]

Yes, but it seems likely that if we have a surface NPR station, it is also going to be the high speed station. If its going to be on the surface is really has to be on the north side of the Piccadilly trainshed.

Now I have some sympathy with an underground station at Piccadilly to do all new services, but I expect I would have a very different idea in mind than most!

I am assuming they will just build the HS2 planned station with junctions etc as planned.

Since reversal does not cost much time wise, I think Leeds to Liverpool passengers can cope with a reversal. Plus, the people of Leeds may be losing reversals at Bradford Interchange so do not want them feeling like they miss out the chance to complain

 

[IRF]

The station at Mayfield would be too short for HS2 trains if it was still available

But they haven't announced a new High Speed station at Manchester, just a new station.

 

[JamesT]

But they haven't announced a new High Speed station at Manchester, just a new station.

Even if the HS2 tracks don’t get any further North than Handsacre, you still need somewhere to send the trains. Especially if they’re still sticking with 400m trains that won’t fit in the existing stations.

 

[Chester1]

Why does it have to be underground? Not too familiar with the density around Manchester but is the original alignment into Mayfield not unused?

It doesn't need to be underground. Andy Burnham is pushing this option to avoid reversing at Piccadilly and to limit the land take but £5bn is far too much to pay for those benefits. Mayfield isn't an option due its position, size and pngoing redevelopment. The cheapest option would be to use the land reserved for the HS2 platforms and then reverse to head towards Guide Bridge.

 

[weeklycommuter]

There still seems some uncertainty about whether the compulsory purchase powers for 2a will lapse or be extended?

The following Government Press Release today, which has a reference to a full new north-south line from Birmingham to Manchester, includes the statement "land already purchased between the West Midlands and Crewe will be retained".

North West to benefit from multi-billion-pound rail investment

Major rail plans will unlock North West's economic potential, including a new rail route between Liverpool and Manchester and improved connections across the region.

www.gov.uk

To maximise NPR’s benefits and secure Britain’s future growth, the government is also setting out a long-term objective to see a full new north-south line from Birmingham to Manchester. This will ensure sufficient capacity and better connectivity on the West Coast Main Line, but it won’t be a revival of HS2 Phase 2. Instead, the government will launch a feasibility study, working with local partners on what will be delivered, when and to what specifications.
This will be an incremental programme, with improvements in the Northern growth corridor prioritised first and land already purchased between the West Midlands and Crewe will be retained in the meantime.

 

[Topological]

For reference, here is what is to the north of Piccadilly from Google Maps:



Link: https://maps.app.goo.gl/tXwMeRyaBsY3tSng9

The building in the distance is Square One a refurbished block - Network Rail use that at the moment and it is very much scheduled for demolition. The building to the left is Piccadilly Gate, but I believe is scheduled for demolition. Otherwise the comparative nothingness for central Manchester should be very clear.

 

[brad465]

The amount of times governments of various colours have announced things called ‘Northern Powerhouse Rail’ must be quite a high number by now.

Why don’t they just say they will invest 1.1bn in a clearly defined project rather than saying it’s part of a 45bn project that isn’t funded?

The problem is major rail investment projects last far longer than the political cycle.

Basically this, but in addition FPTP and poor accountability channels for politicians. If we had a system where coalitions are almost always required, destroying something is much harder than if one party had all the power. There is also increased confidence and certainty in a project if a system exists that makes its premature cancellation less likely, increasing the chance of a project being delivered. As for accountability, the media don't do enough to hold politicians to account for stuff they're required to deliver but won't see the end result for.

 

[IRF]

The following Government Press Release today, which has a reference to a full new north-south line from Birmingham to Manchester, includes the statement "land already purchased between the West Midlands and Crewe will be retained".

Land already purchased doesn't need to be CPO'd going forward though. The question remains: will the government extend the CPO powers so that they can complete the job of acquiring land along the entire route?