New Birmingham to Manchester link proposed- post NPR

[Trackman]

Not holding my breath on any of this. I think Manchester - Liverpool is phase 2 after the NPR upgrade long after 2030.
Not sure, there is going to be some sort of statement next Wednesday with more detailed info.

 

[vuzzeho]

Am I shocked? No. But it's nice to see.

I feel like it's a decent rebuttal to 'the North never gets investment' from the government, but being real, it needed to happen.

I know the forum likes to (somewhat unfairly in my opinion) bash civil servants frequently, but anyone could see that HS2 to Birmingham only would not have made sense.

Of course, I hope they learn from the errors of HS2, and can actually get this done properly. I'm going to avoid my habit of drifting into speculation, and just say that I eagerly await more information.

Good press for GBR though - Sky's reporting with the GBR IET as the cover image!

A new rail line will be built between Birmingham and Manchester, the government has announced.

However, no timescale for when it would be built has been provided - or any other details, such as how it will be funded.

The Treasury says it wants a new Birmingham-Manchester rail line, but it will not be "a reinstatement of HS2".

 

[Floul1]

Am I shocked? No. But it's nice to see. I feel like it's a decent rebuttal to 'the North never gets investment' from the government, but being real, it needed to happen. I know the forum likes to (somewhat unfairly in my opinion) bash civil servants frequently, but anyone could see that HS2 to Birmingham only would not have made sense. Of course, I hope they learn from the errors of HS2, and can actually get this done properly. I'm going to avoid my habit of drifting into speculation, and just say that I eagerly await more information. Good press for GBR though - Sky's reporting with the GBR IET as the cover image!

Ehhh, this is the 3rd(?) announcement of this project and we're still yet to see any funding for it

 

[Megafuss]

After reading the news story and quotes from the Transport Secretary, I see government has again fallen in to the trap of assuming the north stops at Manchester!

 

[camflyer]

What’s the point of announcing stuff that won’t happen for decades. How many changes of government and spending reviews will there be before then.

Announcing things doesn't cost much money and gets good headlines. Delivery and paying for it is a problem for someone else.

 

[mike57]

• Its not funded
• No timescales
• After 'NPR', which is also unfunded with no timescales

Political speak for "We need to try and do some positive spin as we have broken election promises, and introduced other measures which were not in our manifesto and are proving unpopular" (Thinking abandoning jury trials and digital id)

Do people actually believe this rubbish...

Why don’t they just say they will invest 1.1bn in a clearly defined project rather than saying it’s part of a 45bn project that isn’t funded?

Because that would mean actually committing to something and delivering it. I agree, a series of properly funded smaller scale schemes following on from each other would be more deliverable and deliver results quicker as well as giving some supply chain security.

The problem is major rail investment projects last far longer than the political cycle.

Off topic: This lot have 3 and a bit more years at worst, I did hope that a change of government might draw a line under previous disasters, but if anything things seem even bleaker now than under the previous government. From a rail point of view they still need to finish the bit of HS2 that is promised, i.e. reach Euston and get trains running, as well as get GBR up and running, and progress on both seems glacial at best.

So the chances of anything beyond lip service before the next election IMO are a big fat zero

 

[Harpo]

Even without the anti-Labour media barrage from day one, Labours ineptitude makes them a a one term government so this is either,
a) Something for Reform to cancel or,
b) Something for a anything-but-Reform coalition to horse trade and squabble over.

 

[fishwomp]

The amount of times governments of various colours have announced things called ‘Northern Powerhouse Rail’ must be quite a high number by now.

The cost of the announcements and subsequent planning must be getting pretty high and delivers nothing too.

Why don’t they just say they will invest 1.1bn in a clearly defined project rather than saying it’s part of a 45bn project that isn’t funded?

That would be too easy.. and too useful, and would be finished before the next election. It'd never catch on....

Do people actually believe this rubbish

No.

... and deliver results quicker as well as giving some supply chain security.

Crayonistas, design services, and legal drafters, press assistants, mayors and MPs are a vital part of the supply chain -- some of whom face a more impending unemployment than those in the engineering and construction parts of the chain .. it is believed this £1.1bn can secure their jobs

 

[SeanM1997]

Has any town been let down more than Crewe over the last 5 years?

From an accelerated hub on the HS2 network to no funding for a Manchester - Birmingham link with no funding or guarantee it will serve Crewe; no funding for the much needed station remodelling or Weaver Junction increased electrification - both needed to add capacity; no funding for reopening of Middlewich branch line despite the 5:1 benefit/cost ratio and would allow the Mid Cheshire Line connectivity to the rest of England.

The town has been left behind by broken promises and under investment - yet no politician or local leader appears to be highlighting the issue.

As the town isn't in a city region, theres no major voice calling out the travesty successive governments have left the town.

 

[camflyer]

Crayonistas, design services, and legal drafters, press assistants, mayors and MPs are a vital part of the supply chain -- some of whom face a more impending unemployment than those in the engineering and construction parts of the chain .. it is believed this £1.1bn can secure their jobs

And every time a scheme is delayed, "rescoped" or reannounced then it's just more work for the planners, press officers and lawyers who all get paid regardless of whether anything is built or not.

 

[williamn]

Just a few months ago it was announced with much fanfare that Leeds is to get a tram/ metro at last and just a few months later I read that they’re now walking back on that and talking about bus improvements instead… it’s hard to not feel that set of unfinished promises will go the same eat.

 

[daodao]

Has any town been let down more than Crewe over the last 5 years? From an accelerated hub on the HS2 network to no funding for a Manchester-Birmingham link with no funding or guarantee it will serve Crewe; no funding for the much needed station remodelling or Weaver Junction increased electrification - both needed to add capacity; no funding for reopening of Middlewich branch line despite the 5:1 benefit/cost ratio and would allow the Mid Cheshire Line connectivity to the rest of England. The town has been left behind by broken promises and under investment - yet no politician or local leader appears to be highlighting the issue. As the town isnt in a city region, theres no major voice calling out the travesty successive governments have left the town.

Crewe will be getting a new hospital in the next few years (long after I've retired).

Back on topic, the re-announcement of NPR (and only once built, a new fast line northwards from Birmingham) doesn't indicate anything more than that the government isn't willing to annoy Northern English politicians further by publicly shelving these schemes at this time.

 

[fishwomp]

And every time a scheme is delayed, "rescoped" or reannounced then it's just more work for the planners, press officers and lawyers who all get paid regardless of whether anything is built or not.

They only get paid if there is another scheme to draw up, to announce, or to draft legislation for. They would not be doing that job if it weren't for the bi-annual re-announcements - and when there is less work there are fewer positions.

Also, if a scheme were to progress to 'happening' then there would a lack of work for about 3 or 4 years whilst 'construction' happens for some of them.

There would be work for only the press officers and the MPs when the construction nears completion, but that may then have to be a new press officer and new MP due to the hiatus of re-announcements causing their unemployment - and you can imagine the skills gap that a new MP may have, having spent their previous in a completely unrelated profession and even unrelated geographical area.

 

[stephen rp]

I really don’t see the point of it. Extra god knows how much of a billion to cancel it then probably stick to the alignment they we’re going to use in the first place. Farcical

"They" cancelled it. A differenty "they" is trying to resurrect it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jan 2026 ==

DfT has posted about Northern Powerhouse Rail on X

https://x.com/transportgovuk

Probably off topic, as it seems likely that they will do Liverpool-Manchester first. And quite right too.

That's a bit thin. Where's the stuff the media have got?

I'm surprised that the L&M should be done first (without "son of HS2:2a/b"). Even if HS2 provided the station at Piccadilly and the tunnel to the airport, and crossingt the M56 twice, the business case for the line to Liverpool was marginal (according to the last published report).

And (from the Manchester Evening News) if it will reduce journey time from Liverpool to Manchester to 35 minutes, this is a new use of the word "reduce".

 

[camflyer]

"They" cancelled it. A differenty "they" is trying to resurrect it.

Not really being resurrected. Only a vague intention to do something after all 3 phases of NPR are finished (so late 2030s at the earliest) and no commitment that it will even be a HS line.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

But what about the black hole? We are broke remember.

Most people do remember, but this Labour government neither remembers nor understands.

 

[stephen rp]

Not really being resurrected. Only a vague intention to do something after all 3 phases of NPR are finished (so late 2030s at the earliest) and no commitment that it will even be a HS line.

So a bit better than selling off the protected (and bought) land as the previous "they" wanted to.

 

[IRF]

So a bit better than selling off the protected (and bought) land as the previous "they" wanted to.

Yes but they really should extend the powers to purchase further land (that hasn't already been bought) along the Phase 2A route, just in case it's needed depending on the new decision on a route (assuming that's determined within the next five years). They appear only to have announced no selling off of land already acquired.

 

[Topological]

Yes but they really should extend the powers to purchase further land (that hasn't already been bought) along the Phase 2A route, just in case it's needed depending on the new decision on a route (assuming that's determined within the next five years). They appear only to have announced no selling off of land already acquired.

My full expectation is that it will be exactly the same route and therefore need exactly the same land.

The only thing that will be scaled down will be the redevelopment of Crewe station.

I am not sure of the timelines precisely because I am not involved in rail engineering, but I strongly expect something tangible on a section in 2029.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jan 2026 ==

"They" cancelled it. A differenty "they" is trying to resurrect it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jan 2026 ==


That's a bit thin. Where's the stuff the media have got?

I'm surprised that the L&M should be done first (without "son of HS2:2a/b"). Even if HS2 provided the station at Piccadilly and the tunnel to the airport, and crossingt the M56 twice, the business case for the line to Liverpool was marginal (according to the last published report).

And (from the Manchester Evening News) if it will reduce journey time from Liverpool to Manchester to 35 minutes, this is a new use of the word "reduce".

The core there is of course Liverpool, which has always been ignored by the Conservative proposals.

The should really quote Manchester Airport to Liverpool when talking about journey time reductions. Though I hope lessons have been learned on the capacity argument and that actually much more will be made of the vastly improved service for places like Widnes, Birchwood, St Helens, Newton-le-Willows and Irlam when the fast trains are re-routed.

 

[Grimsby town]

But what about the black hole? We are broke remember.

What's a current spending black hole in 2024 got to do with capital spending between 2030 and 2035. Just because there's budget pressures doesn't mean that as a country we can't afford to build any infrastructure.

The country is spending over £10 billion on rail infrastructure per year currently. A lot of that is being spent on TRU and HS2. By 2030 most of the major spending (e.g. large civils work) will be complete on those 2 projects, freeing up funding to be spent on other projects.

 

[chris2]

Personally, I think it's progress.

Up to now, the government position has been solely 'we're not bringing HS2 back'. Now they're saying...

the government is also setting out a long-term objective to see a full new north-south line from Birmingham to Manchester

Regardless of the timescales, what they call it, who builds it etc, they are now saying they want to see a new line built. That's progress from where we were.

land already purchased between the West Midlands and Crewe will be retained in the meantime

The confirmation that the government will retain the land brings an end to the looming threat of already purchased land along Phase 2a route being sold off. This was an existential threat to the prospect of the line being built, so again, this is progress. This also confirms the 2a alignment is the obvious starting point for any new line.

the government will launch a feasibility study, working with local partners on what will be delivered, when and to what specifications.

More money down the drain maybe, but blame Sunak for that, not Labour. The government have to do the political process and a new study to re-establish the case for building the line is a part of that. If Labour had inherited HS2 with Phase 2a intact, I suspect they would be pressing on with it. The fact is, they didn't. Putting something new in its place is going to cost money.

it won’t be a revival of HS2 Phase 2

Quite how they maintain this argument I'm not sure. But this is politics. There's always interesting interplay between what's said, what's implied, what's not said, what's done and what's not done. In my view, the important thing is the general trajectory and this announcement demonstrates a government going in the opposite direction to Sunak's, towards new railway infrastructure that will improve and expand rail travel in the UK. Yes, it could be have been better, bolder, etc. But people wouldn't believe those promises either.

 

[edwin_m]

The support for an underground station at Piccadilly will push the Liverpool-Manchester and eventual Transpennine route back, by at least a couple of years if they investigate and stick with something like the HS2 surface station but probably by a decade if they decide to go underground instead.

 

[Watershed]

Regardless of the timescales, what they call it, who builds it etc, they are now saying they want to see a new line built. That's progress from where we were.

It's better than nothing, but given that we previously had an Act of Parliament effectively giving planning permission for the line, with detailed design drawings done and shovels very nearly in the ground, and yet that still got cancelled, I'm not exactly holding my breath.

The timescales are also incredibly loose. "After NPR gets built" could mean almost anything and in reality it just kicks the can down the road for the next government to likely cancel this.

Any sensible government would have stuck with Phase 2a to begin with, since it solves the most urgent bottlenecks on the WCML (Colwich Jn and the two track line through Shugborough). Without that, very few improvements in terms of journey time, frequency or capacity can be realised on the WCML and the BCR of Phase 1 is hugely reduced.

 

[Kite159]

At least they didn't do the usual and announce various upgrades already in progress related to the Transpennie Upgrade as new things.

Overhead electrical cables, wasn't the future with battery powered meaning overhead wires don't need to get put up?

 

[HSTEd]

A post NPR timeframe probably means we could start from scratch with a new scheme and still not delay construction.

As I noted in the "Restarting Phase 2A" thread, the existence of NPR does have a rather major effect on railway operations in the North West of England, I don't think its sensible to just assume a north-south solution that was picked as optimal in 2009 when noone had even thought about an east west line is still optimal once it is built.

 

[JonathanH]

The timescales are also incredibly loose. "After NPR gets built" could mean almost anything and in reality it just kicks the can down the road for the next government to likely cancel this.

I imagine we should see rail investment as being an allowance of about £8-10 billion a year covering all potential projects. The next project begins when the previous project has finished. The risk of cancellation comes if that funding stream is needed elsewhere or there is significant overspend on the preceding project.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The amount of times governments of various colours have announced things called ‘Northern Powerhouse Rail’ must be quite a high number by now.

Why don’t they just say they will invest 1.1bn in a clearly defined project rather than saying it’s part of a 45bn project that isn’t funded?

Politicians do that. All talk and no action.

Announcing things doesn't cost much money and gets good headlines. Delivery and paying for it is a problem for someone else.

Exactly

 

[Ian Hardy]

BBC Manchester's Facebook post about the announcement has used an very appropriate picture to illustrate the item, it is of 377141

BBC Manchester

HS2 is currently tens of billions of pounds over budget and around a decade behind schedule. Read more here: https://bbc.in/3Z9wjjV

www.facebook.com

Image from Facebook shows a Class 377 EMU in Southern livery alongside the headline "New Birmingham - Manchester rail link to be proposed"

 

[wanderingriver]

BBC Manchester's Facebook post about the announcement has used an very appropriate picture to illustrate the item, it is of 377141
https://www.facebook.com/100064580683726/posts/1306601094835901/

You’re telling me 377s aren’t fast enough for High Speed Rail?

 

[Technologist]

I appreciate the frustration with how long we take to build things, but isn't it actually a good sign if we're willing to start building things that our children will benefit from, even if we ourselves do not?

The problem is that the scope of the long term visions are more in line with what should be done in a short term vision. Old men planting trees in who's shade they will never sit in only do it because they've seen tree grow over their lifetime and they watched their fathers plant trees for them.

What we need to study is Jevons paradox, this is the fact that getting more efficient at using a resource means that you end up using more of it not less, as you get more efficient more opportunities to use the resource open up because it is cheaper.

Jevons paradox - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If we are prepared to invest in getting more proficient at building railways and doing it cheaper then we will actually see more get spent on rail and things will go faster. Which is why its more important to work out how we will build rather than what we will build.

GBR does not appear to be addressing the issue of the how and it has no Research and Development function.