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Thoughts on the Trump presidency

ainsworth74

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They seem to do relatively OK with the big ones. Maybe that's why they've decided to build 24 Trump class "battleships" to do the work of a couple of hundred frigates and destroyers.
For a given value of OK :lol:

The Ford class carriers are coming together fairly well now (USS Ford having at least completed a deployment) but it's been a battle with Ford being a bit of a disaster area for a number of years now. The San Antonio amphibious assault ships similarly had a bit of dubious start to their careers but have settled down in the end. But yes they do generally manage to get the larger warships into service, eventually, but in terms of escorts the last class they got into service in numbers that are an undoubted success as the Burke class destroyers. They'll be building them until the crack of doom at the rate we're going...
 
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brad465

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For a given value of OK :lol:

The Ford class carriers are coming together fairly well now (USS Ford having at least completed a deployment) but it's been a battle with Ford being a bit of a disaster area for a number of years now. The San Antonio amphibious assault ships similarly had a bit of dubious start to their careers but have settled down in the end. But yes they do generally manage to get the larger warships into service, eventually, but in terms of escorts the last class they got into service in numbers that are an undoubted success as the Burke class destroyers. They'll be building them until the crack of doom at the rate we're going...
According to that infamous Kennedy vs Lincoln urban legend, maybe Trump will meet his maker on board that carrier.
 

najaB

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No, putting the vehicle blocking the traffic. Which is the obstructing federal agents which prompts them to approach the vehicle.
Your "blocking traffic" is my "taking time turning around". In any case, blocking traffic doesn't justify summary execution.
 

edwin_m

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According to that infamous Kennedy vs Lincoln urban legend, maybe Trump will meet his maker on board that carrier.
Had to look that one up. I think you're suggesting that as Lincoln died in the Ford theatre, and Kennedy was shot in a Ford car, that Trump shouldn't go anywhere near the Gerald R Ford.
it's been a battle with Ford being a bit of a disaster area for a number of years now
Are you suggesting it can't walk and chew gum at the same time?
 

JamesT

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Your "blocking traffic" is my "taking time turning around". In any case, blocking traffic doesn't justify summary execution.
3 minutes to turn around? Bashing the horn all the time you're doing it?
I think we're going round in circles here. You started off saying ICE have no powers of arrest or detainment. I've shown that they do, and that Renee Good's actions provided a justification for them to approach the vehicle.
He didn't shoot her for blocking traffic, he shot her because she drove at him.
 

DarloRich

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Renee Good's actions provided a justification for them to approach the vehicle.
He didn't shoot her for blocking traffic, he shot her because she drove at him.
Regardless - it was a disproportionate response. It is ok for you to admit that. You wont be infected by woke mind virus or anything.
 

Tetchytyke

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Trying to drive off into an ICE agent is what got her killed.
Nah. She was nowhere near the ICE agent, who actually ran into the path of the car in order to shoot her in the head.

However, even if she was driving her car at the ICE agent, shooting her in the head is the absolute worst way to make the situation safe. As we saw in the video, the effect of her being shot in the head was to cause the car to rapidly accelerate out of control and hit a number of parked vehicles.

Rather than making the situation safer for everyone, including the ICE agents in the road, Mr Ross made the situation less safe by causing two tonnes of prime Honda to go careering off down the road out of control and at full gas. That car could have gone anywhere, given its driver had been shot in the face. Luckily for everyone it hit the parked cars before it got up a proper turn of speed.

So best case is that Mr Ross has a staggeringly poor judgment, is trigger-happy, and simply doesn't understand how to defuse a dangerous situation. Which is probably how he managed to get run over in the summer.

Worst case is that summarily executed an innocent woman because she got in his way.

Seriously, the New York Post is probably not the best source of information as it appears to be the US equivalent of the Sun.
You're not suggesting that a tabloid newspaper owned by Rupert Murdoch has only a tenuous grasp on reality, are you? That would be absurd.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

A woman being killed by the feds in Minneapolis is not and should not be front page news in the UK. Plesse try to resist becoming addicted to the American news cycle!
I appreciate the underlying point, and I think we need to talk less about Trump and the US.

However, the specific example is a bit more than that. The way ICE are behaving is all rather Sturmabteilung.
 

jon0844

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I watch a lot of videos of sovereign citizens being pulled from vehicles because they don't have a licence or insurance. They don't get shot and officers never, ever, stand in front of a vehicle.

(Yes there have been shootings where an occupant of the vehicle went for a gun. That doesn't count).

I can't imagine the carnage if every traffic stop resulted in the driver being shot for being belligerent.

Ironically, sovereign citizens are classified as domestic terrorists by the FBI!
 

Krokodil

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@JamesT and others may be interested in this analysis by a former NYPD Lieutenant with experience of investigating police shootings.
 

jon0844

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I wonder what some people thought of the George Floyd killing, about one mile away apparently.

Now he may well have been guilty of trying to pass off counterfeit money so I guess that means skipping due process is okay because he was deemed guilty in the mind of the cop?

I say that sarcastically but plenty of people said that then and still do now when the comparison is made of how the police deal with incidents.
 

Krokodil

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Minneapolis does have history (not just George Floyd, the was a woman in 2017 too) regarding the excessive use of force by law enforcement. The city police have spent the last five years cleaning their act up. Then the Federal government decided (out of pure spite) to lob a grenade into the city.
 

jon0844

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You want civil unrest, and possibly a war/conflict if you're seeking to delay or cancel the midterms.

These grenades are being thrown all over but they don't seem to get the desired reaction, which must frustrate those having to talk of the domestic terrorists who are ringing bells, blowing whistles and dressing up as frogs.

They're wanting people to rise up with weapons so they can step up their attacks with more justification. Hence why they had to say this lady used her vehicle as a weapon and ran the officer over, who according to Trump is lucky to be alive while he recovers in his hospital bed...

...what's that? He wasn't run over and didn't go to hospital? Fake news! We said he did, so he did. End of.

Oh and it was a nice touch that the officer shouted 'fu**ing bi**h' also. In all the other videos I've seen of police shooting people they shout 'shots fired' and almost immediately begin a process of administering first aid. This guy just walked off and didn't even care what happened to the vehicle.
 

Bantamzen

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3 minutes to turn around? Bashing the horn all the time you're doing it?
I think we're going round in circles here. You started off saying ICE have no powers of arrest or detainment. I've shown that they do, and that Renee Good's actions provided a justification for them to approach the vehicle.
He didn't shoot her for blocking traffic, he shot her because she drove at him.
But some of the the video footage shows an ICE vehicle drive around Good's car prior to the agents approaching it, so she wasn't blocking the whole of the road. And when the she did eventually move forward, she first reversed then clearly turned the wheel to the right when the agent was to the left before attempting to move away. It is clear to most that there was zero justification for shooting at, let alone killing her. She wasn't shot because she drove at him, she was driving to avoid & get away from him and his fellow agents. She was shot because the agents escalated a pretty benign situation, and the agent responsible for her death opted to shoot first and think later.

What's even clearer from the footage from this, and an increasing number of confrontations is that ICE agents are aggressive, confrontational, ill-disciplined and in some situations either badly trained or simply ignoring training. Make no mistake this is going to happen again and again unless they, like the administration, are brought to task and made responsible for their actions.
 

Krokodil

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Oh and it was a nice touch that the officer shouted 'fu**ing bi**h' also. In all the other videos I've seen of police shooting people they shout 'shots fired' and almost immediately begin a process of administering first aid. This guy just walked off and didn't even care what happened to the vehicle.
Note that his immediate response was one of anger, rather than the sort of "phew" reaction you'd expect from someone who had just seen his life flash before his eyes.
 

EYFanatic

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As I noted earlier. The US Navy is almost institutionally incapable of bringing new surface warships into service successfully or at all in many cases.
Or keeping those that are in service away from scandals, ramming into other ships, shooting their own aircraft down or, in the case of the Harry S Truman, not hitting civilian ships, trying to cover it up and then hitting stationary land whilst on the way home

In my own and humble opinion, the US navy is more dangerous to itself then anybody else
 

Purple Train

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But some of the the video footage shows an ICE vehicle drive around Good's car prior to the agents approaching it, so she wasn't blocking the whole of the road. And when the she did eventually move forward, she first reversed then clearly turned the wheel to the right when the agent was to the left before attempting to move away. It is clear to most that there was zero justification for shooting at, let alone killing her. She wasn't shot because she drove at him, she was driving to avoid & get away from him and his fellow agents. She was shot because the agents escalated a pretty benign situation, and the agent responsible for her death opted to shoot first and think later.

What's even clearer from the footage from this, and an increasing number of confrontations is that ICE agents are aggressive, confrontational, ill-disciplined and in some situations either badly trained or simply ignoring training. Make no mistake this is going to happen again and again unless they, like the administration, are brought to task and made responsible for their actions.
Well said, thank you.
 

najaB

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While I have no reason to doubt the veracity of this post, I also cannot confirm that it is true. That said, if it is true it demonstrates clearly that ICE are operating way outside their legal limits. I have linked the entire post below, but want to highlight two sections:
My name is Brandon Siguenza, and I am a US citizen from Minneapolis. Yesterday, while doing legal observation, ICE stopped their cars to harass my friend and me. They sprayed pepper spray into the vent of our vehicle. We held our hands in the air and told them we were not obstructing, that the car was in park and they were free to drive forward and away. There was no active immigration raid. They returned to their cars, and drove forward a bit, then decided to stop again. They surrounded us, smashed the windows of our car, opened the doors (they were unlocked), ripped my friend and I out of the car and arrested us on charges of obstruction.
This is consistent with what we saw in the case of Renee Good, where someone who was not obstructing was treated as if they were. The ICE officers stopped what they were doing to interact with the poster and then subsequently accused them of obstruction.
My friend and I were put in an area for "USCs," which we eventually learned meant US citizens, separated by gender. We were imprisoned for 8 hours, during which my friend was never allowed a phone call. I was allowed to call my wife and tell her where I was. During my interview with Special Agent William and Special Agent Garcia, they asked me to empty my pockets. When I pulled out gloves, Agent William said those were meant to be taken when I was processed, and complained about having to fill out the form again. He frisked me once more, where he found glass in my pocket from when our car window was shattered. He filled out the form listing my personal items again, but put the wrong date. I was read my rights, I pleaded the fifth and was led back to my cell.
ICE categorically do not have the right to arrest and hold US citizens in detention. Even if the poster had been obstructing, the correct procedure would be for ICE to immediately transfer them to the custody of law enforcement officers.

 

Spamcan81

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While I have no reason to doubt the veracity of this post, I also cannot confirm that it is true. That said, if it is true it demonstrates clearly that ICE are operating way outside their legal limits. I have linked the entire post below, but want to highlight two sections:

This is consistent with what we saw in the case of Renee Good, where someone who was not obstructing was treated as if they were. The ICE officers stopped what they were doing to interact with the poster and then subsequently accused them of obstruction.

ICE categorically do not have the right to arrest and hold US citizens in detention. Even if the poster had been obstructing, the correct procedure would be for ICE to immediately transfer them to the custody of law enforcement officers.

Sounds like ICE are acting as Trump’s Einsatzgruppen.
 

Krokodil

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Or keeping those that are in service away from scandals, ramming into other ships, shooting their own aircraft down or, in the case of the Harry S Truman, not hitting civilian ships, trying to cover it up and then hitting stationary land whilst on the way home

In my own and humble opinion, the US navy is more dangerous to itself then anybody else
There's an old urban legend about a (probably fictional) interaction between a US aircraft carrier and a lighthouse. While it probably never happened, it's not hard to see how it could have happened.
 

WelshBluebird

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No, putting the vehicle blocking the traffic. Which is the obstructing federal agents which prompts them to approach the vehicle.
What she did or didnt do is pretty much immaterial surely? Obstructing them isnt a crime that has immediate execution without trial as a punishment. How about the officer just do whatever non armed officers would have done? And that'd make ignoring the fact that shooting the driver of a moving vehicle with one hand whilst holding your mobile phone in your other hand is dangerous and careless at best!
 

Cowley

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Sounds like ICE are acting as Trump’s Einsatzgruppen.

I reckon the play book over the next few months will be to continue to stir ICE into the pot in the hopes of creating some proper flare ups in Democratic areas in the hopes that Trump can then say that it’s too dangerous to hold elections there, and anywhere that doesn’t end up like that will probably find squadrons of ICE agents milling around outside polling stations to keep certain sections of the electorate away.

Hopefully that won’t work, but I do think that’s what he intends to try.
 

GusB

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Some people are certainly fighting back.

I don't know how reputable DRM News is, but this video cropped up on my feed earlier. A man is approached at a petrol station by ICE officers who then find them surrounded by people blowing whistles and telling them where to go. The caption is:
Tensions flared in Minneapolis after ICE agents stopped a man at a gas station and demanded proof of U.S. citizenship, prompting bystanders to blow whistles and shout at the agents. Crowd anger forced the agents back to their vehicle as public outrage over federal immigration enforcement continues to grow in the wake of the deadly ICE shooting of Renee Nicole Good. Tense Minneapolis Moment: Crowd Confronts ICE Agents After Citizenship Stop at Gas Station ICE Agents Back Down as Minneapolis Bystanders Surround and Shout During Citizenship Check “La Migra!” Minneapolis Crowd Erupts at ICE Agents Questioning Man at Gas Station


(contains some sweary words)
 

Strathclyder

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Some people are certainly fighting back.

I don't know how reputable DRM News is, but this video cropped up on my feed earlier. A man is approached at a petrol station by ICE officers who then find them surrounded by people blowing whistles and telling them where to go. The caption is:



(contains some sweary words)
Good. Expect to see more of this. Pathetic little runts who live with their chest permanently puffed out always dissolve like wet toilet paper when surrounded and put on the defense. Can dish it out, but certainly can't take it. Why else would they gear up like they're going into Chernobyl Reactor No.4? Cowardice, plain and simple.

It goes without saying that the regime is actively pouring gasoline on a smoldering tinderbox filled with gunpowder and is holding a box full of lit matches above it, just daring the public to finally snap, organize and respond in a non-peaceful fashion as then they would have - in their sick twisted little heads and not in any actual legal sense - justification to drop any and all pretense, impose martial law nationwide, cancel all elections and crack down even harder. Bloodthirsty, power-hungry sociopaths, every last one of them.

When does the public turning round and giving the federal government the metaphorical beating of a lifetime become not just an inevitability, but a necessity in order to put a stop to this insanity? Dare I say that rubicon has already been crossed with Ms. Good being murdered in cold blood or is very, very close to being passed irrecoverably.

Whatever the end result of all this is, a revolution, an insurgency or straight-up Civil War Mk2, it's bubbling away right under the surface and it ain't gonna be pretty when, not if, it finally erupts. I genuinely wish I could say I'm not advocating for this to happen, but in my heart of hearts, I wouldn't object to it if it did, on these grounds: the federal government is openly and actively hostile towards it's own populace and is backing them into a corner. It's only a matter of time before the populace strikes back and would be well within their constitutional rights to do so.

I'm also well aware of the fact that I, as a British citizen, probably shouldn't be so invested in what happens in the US, but there-in lies the quandary. Given their presence on the world stage and how their (in)actions and polices can affect virtually every corner of the globe in one way or another - never has that been more true than now - I kind of feel obligated to pay attention to what's happening over there. I wish I didn't have to, but we are where we are sadly and any violent internal schisms that result from this will more than likely be felt here.
 
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Bantamzen

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Which will Trump order invaded first?
New York...

No seriously, with Mamdani now sworn in as Mayor, NYC will be firmly in Trump's sights. Minneapolis is simply the training exercise for the Trump Private Army, sorry ICE. New York is the real goal here.
 

ainsworth74

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Are you suggesting it can't walk and chew gum at the same time?
I certainly think that it took a bit of time for it to master that particular skill but I reckon they've managed it in the end :lol: ;)
Or keeping those that are in service away from scandals, ramming into other ships, shooting their own aircraft down or, in the case of the Harry S Truman, not hitting civilian ships, trying to cover it up and then hitting stationary land whilst on the way home

In my own and humble opinion, the US navy is more dangerous to itself then anybody else
I think USN has a lot of indicator lights that are flashing bright red and without some serious changes in leadership and culture will continue to suffer a degradation in it's capabilities. One of the reasons the Fitzgerald and McCain had their collisions in 2017 was that the material condition of the ships was fairly poor with system isolated and unavailable, their crews were not fully trained and many of them were utterly knackered and regularly running on only a few hours of sleep.

Why were the ships and crews in that condition? Well the USN doesn't have enough warships and sailors for all the tasks that are required of it so has to run their remaining ships and crews harder and harder. Why don't they have enough ships and sailors? A mixture of budget constraints (yes even the US military struggles with budget constraints), a failure to build appropriate numbers of new warships (whilst still retiring others), and a struggle to retain sailors (because they're being run ragged and doing longer and longer deployments more and more often).

That is not a healthy force and is not one that will lead to success in wartime. If you're already running your fleet and people beyond their effective capacity good luck when the pressure of a real shooting war show up.

Not sure that I'd say though that the USN is more dangerous to itself than others though...
Iran
Greenland
Minneapolis

Which will Trump order invaded first?
Arguably he's already invaded Minneapolis...
 

najaB

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Arguably he's already invaded Minneapolis.
The parallels with Russia / Ukraine are starting to show.

He has moved ICE into the city in order to stoke unrest. When the populace eventually break and fight back he will move the National Guard (or active duty troops) in to "quell the insurrection". The Mayor and Governor will, naturally, object and insist that he has to remove the guard and ICE, but he will counter that he can't remove the guard because they're there to protect the otherwise peaceful population from violent insurrectionists.

In both Russia/Ukraine and the upcoming USA/Minnesota conflict the simple solution - withdrawing the invading force - will not be taken.
 

ainsworth74

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The parallels with Russia / Ukraine are starting to show.

He has moved ICE into the city in order to stoke unrest. When the populace eventually break and fight back he will move the National Guard (or active duty troops) in to "quell the insurrection". The Mayor and Governor will, naturally, object and insist that he has to remove the guard and ICE, but he will counter that he can't remove the guard because they're there to protect the otherwise peaceful population from violent insurrectionists.

In both Russia/Ukraine and the upcoming USA/Minnesota conflict the simple solution - withdrawing the invading force - will not be taken.
Absolutely. It seems fairly clear to me now that the goal of ICE violence is to eventually lead to a violent response from the occupied population allowing them to escalate the violence and, ideally, use the Insurrection Act to move in active duty troops. The obvious hope is to inflame the situation in Blue states and cities that they can try and interfere directly with their elections ("It's not possible to accept those elected by Minnesota, because the state is in insurrection against the lawful government of the United States. Until peace and order is restored it wouldn't be appropriate to allow those members to sit in Congress" etc etc).

All completely illegal and unconstitutional of course but when Congress is supine and the Supreme Court in your back pocket who is going to stop you?
 

najaB

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Absolutely. It seems fairly clear to me now that the goal of ICE violence is to eventually lead to a violent response from the occupied population allowing them to escalate the violence and, ideally, use the Insurrection Act to move in active duty troops. The obvious hope is to inflame the situation in Blue states and cities that they can try and interfere directly with their elections ("It's not possible to accept those elected by Minnesota, because the state is in insurrection against the lawful government of the United States. Until peace and order is restored it wouldn't be appropriate to allow those members to sit in Congress" etc etc).
First sign of a GOP official claiming (the deputy Attorney General) that there's an "insurrection" in Minnesota:
(YouTube video to a sub-titled MSNOW news story about the protests)

Edit: Scary point raised in the video - there will soon be five times as many ICE/CPB agents in Minneapolis as there are local law enforcement officers.
 

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