Who does the best bus data?

[ChrisPJ]

I'm curious to know what the best quality bus data in the UK is, by that I mean which operator provides the most comprehensive timetable information online and which local authority has the most accurate bus stops info. Looking on bus times.org the Isle of Wight seems to be quite good, is this the same across all of Go Ahead Group? Are there any particularly good smaller operators?

 

[stadler]

I'm curious to know what the best quality bus data in the UK is, by that I mean which operator provides the most comprehensive timetable information online and which local authority has the most accurate bus stops info. Looking on bus times.org the Isle of Wight seems to be quite good, is this the same across all of Go Ahead Group? Are there any particularly good smaller operators?

Compass Bus and Cuckmere Buses are rather good. They have PDF timetables and maps on their website. Easy to find timetables and the websites are laid out well. They also both have paper timetable books which is rare nowadays.

 

[ChrisPJ]

Thanks, though maybe I didn't get my question quite right, I was meaning who does data feeds the best, where everything works really well on a bus tracker web site or app. Some operators services aren't represented very well on the likes of bustimes which probably means that the bus open dataset information isn't as good as it could be?

 

[nw1]

From a cursory look, Stagecoach South seems to do well for the slightly more esoteric aspects of the data, such as block number.

 

[markymark2000]

Thanks, though maybe I didn't get my question quite right, I was meaning who does data feeds the best, where everything works really well on a bus tracker web site or app. Some operators services aren't represented very well on the likes of bustimes which probably means that the bus open dataset information isn't as good as it could be?

It may be worth amending your original post to better explain what you are looking for, because there's a huge difference between what you have asked, the examples you've given given, and your revised question. And perhaps provide some specific service or operator examples with what you mean.

Even in your revised question, there is an awful lot of ways to answer because often the timetable data on a website can be different to what is on bustimes.
The person who runs Bustimes also spends a lot of time and does a lot of trial and error to get the right data source for an operator because you can often find that all sources say different things, as such in most cases, you can't easily see how bad some operators own data is because it's not used on bustimes, and operators websites are more often than not just PDFs). There's also lots of companies using agents to sort their open data for them (ie it's not coming direct from the operator), and so you'd essentially be judging an operator in many cases by the intermediary agent. There are also some companies for where bustimes get's it's timetable data from the operators websites open data link, and so what is shown on Bustimes becomes basically identical to that shown on the operators website.

AVL is generally much more simple with somewhere around 99% of data originating from the bus ticket machine. How that data gets to bustimes varies but largely the routes which don't track on bustimes, are those where the operator is not legally forced to have their tracking data public (whether that be an operator not operating in England, or an out of scope works/school service) and Bustimes hasn't found or been given a separate tracking API. If you've some examples, I know more specific information can be given.

 

[Cheers Drive]

NXWM
National Express West Midlands they run a tight ship very organised snd always way ahead in technology than the rest of the uk

 

[py_megapixel]

I'm quite impressed with Transport for Greater Manchester with the fact that all the stop names seem to match up between sources.

Not only that, but a pub I know has recently changed names and within a short time the bus stop name had been updated on the stop flag, bustimes.org (presumably via NAPTAN), the Bee Network app and the auto announcement systems on all the buses. There's still an old timetable in the case with the old name but since that will be replaced anyway at the next timetable change it's less of a concern.

On the other hand, and arguably out of scope of this thread, I find it a bit disappointing how slow Manchester has been to get on board with roadside displays with live arrival times. The only currently working one, to my knowledge, at any roadside stop outside Manchester city centre has only just been installed within the last few months! Although there are absolutely loads of abandoned ones all over the place that don't work and I can't remember them ever been switched on - I've often wondered what happened for them to apparently install so many and then barely use them.

AVL is generally much more simple with somewhere around 99% of data originating from the bus ticket machine. How that data gets to bustimes varies but largely the routes which don't track on bustimes, are those where the operator is not legally forced to have their tracking data public (whether that be an operator not operating in England, or an out of scope works/school service) and Bustimes hasn't found or been given a separate tracking API. If you've some examples, I know more specific information can be given.

A repeated bugbear of mine is the fact that the free city centre circulars in Sheffield (SC1 and SC2) don't track.
They're not legally required to because the operator, South Pennine Community Transport, is out of scope of the legislation. But they use brand new vehicles designated to the SC routes specifically. There's already GPS equipment fitted for the auto announcements, which work perfectly, by the way. And the nature of the service is that it would really benefit from live arrival times at the stops, many of which already have roadside displays fitted capable of showing this information, so the whole situation is just rather unsatisfactory.

You'd think Travel South Yorkshire could have managed better for what is arguably their flagship service (well, ignoring Supertram of course - although live arrival times on there are patchy at best, as well...)

 

[ChrisPJ]

It may be worth amending your original post to better explain what you are looking for, because there's a huge difference between what you have asked, the examples you've given given, and your revised question. And perhaps provide some specific service or operator examples with what you mean.

Even in your revised question, there is an awful lot of ways to answer because often the timetable data on a website can be different to what is on bustimes.
The person who runs Bustimes also spends a lot of time and does a lot of trial and error to get the right data source for an operator because you can often find that all sources say different things, as such in most cases, you can't easily see how bad some operators own data is because it's not used on bustimes, and operators websites are more often than not just PDFs). There's also lots of companies using agents to sort their open data for them (ie it's not coming direct from the operator), and so you'd essentially be judging an operator in many cases by the intermediary agent. There are also some companies for where bustimes get's it's timetable data from the operators websites open data link, and so what is shown on Bustimes becomes basically identical to that shown on the operators website.

AVL is generally much more simple with somewhere around 99% of data originating from the bus ticket machine. How that data gets to bustimes varies but largely the routes which don't track on bustimes, are those where the operator is not legally forced to have their tracking data public (whether that be an operator not operating in England, or an out of scope works/school service) and Bustimes hasn't found or been given a separate tracking API. If you've some examples, I know more specific information can be given.

Is there an idiots guide to all of this somewhere? I thought it was a case of, operators supply data to local authorities, data is then uploaded to Traveline.

Maybe a flowchart would be useful if one exists.

 

[py_megapixel]

Is there an idiots guide to all of this somewhere? I thought it was a case of, operators supply data to local authorities, data is then uploaded to Traveline.

Maybe a flowchart would be useful if one exists.

It would be difficult to provide a comprehensive flowchart since, as with a lot of public transport in this country, the systems are rather fragmented.

Broadly speaking there are a few different categories of data. No doubt some people will be along to add things I've forgotten, but off the top of my head:

• Operators have to register details of their services before any new service starts or existing service is amended. This information has to be provided to the Traffic Commissioner for the relevant area some number of days in advance, and to the local authority responsible for public transport (typically the Mayoral Combined Authority, the Passenger Transport Executive or the County Council) some number of days before that. (I have forgotten the exact numbers involved). This allows local authorities to produce timetables, update roadside information etc. and allows the Traffic Commissioner to perform its function as a regulator. I believe this information is what eventually gets passed on to Traveline.
  
  
• Separately, operators have to publish certain types of data to the online Bus Open Data Service (BODS) while services are in operation - fares, routes, timetables. This is mostly where bustimes.org gets its database of routes from (although see below).
  
  
• Operators also have to publish realtime bus locations to BODS, which usually happens automatically via the ticket machine on each bus. This realtime location data is mostly what underpins the bustimes.org map (although see below).
  
  
• Some operators or local authorities have their own data feeds that partially duplicate the above functionality. Most of those are purely internal and are only used to feed e.g. the operator's own apps (which is why you can get a situation where the operator's app disagrees with bustimes.org).
  Sometimes, in the cases where they are public, bustimes.org will use these more specific feeds in preference to BODS - see https://bustimes.org/data
  
  
• Local authorities are supposed to maintain the database NAPTAN (National Public Transport Access Nodes), which is meant to include all public transport stops in the country. Note that NAPTAN is not specific to buses.
  Operators are, as far as I can tell, encouraged but not required to use NAPTAN when referring to stops by name. So sometimes stop names at the roadside will match what the operators call them but sometimes they won't.

I imagine there will also still be some arrangements in different parts of the country where operators provide data to different, legacy systems - e.g. to feed live departure boards that were installed before BODS existed.

 

[ChrisPJ]

This is all really interesting, thanks for the detailed replies. It sounds somewhat inconsistent, do things tend to be best in the areas where bus services have historically considered to be operated well, such as Brighton/Reading/Nottingham/Oxford and Edinburgh?

 

[markymark2000]

This is all really interesting, thanks for the detailed replies. It sounds somewhat inconsistent, do things tend to be best in the areas where bus services have historically considered to be operated well, such as Brighton/Reading/Nottingham/Oxford and Edinburgh?

It varies a LOT and there is so much to take into consideration here. There is also the case that Edinburgh doesn't come under open data regulations so they do things differently. There is also the case that the operators websites will often be very different to the open data. So are we comparing the operators own websites and data provided on that, are we comparing the operators website open data (not including Edinburgh), or are we comparing their bus open data entries (again not including Edinburgh).

There's so much that people with an interest can write on this, but it would end up pages long, and still perhaps not come out with an explanation that works with what conclusions you are wanting to come to. If I were to give a very general response though, I'd say that no, there is no correlation between these areas, and having good data.