Southern only travelcard - starting short

[egg426]

Hi,

I was wondering if there's anything wrong with buying a Southern only travelcard from Epsom but only using it inside the zones?

I ask because I had some grief after arriving at Waterloo from Chessington - they said I was liable for a penalty fare. Before I go around telling them that I bought it online in the Southern sale, picked it up at Chessington and used it as a regular travelcard, is there any way it could be seen as fraud, as I had no intention of using it from Epsom?

Thanks

 

[Mike395]

Hi,

I was wondering if there's anything wrong with buying a Southern only travelcard from Epsom but only using it inside the zones?

I ask because I had some grief after arriving at Waterloo from Chessington - they said I was liable for a penalty fare. Before I go around telling them that I bought it online in the Southern sale, picked it up at Chessington and used it as a regular travelcard, is there any way it could be seen as fraud, as I had no intention of using it from Epsom?

Thanks

Absolutely no problem with this at all, so long as you start your journey within London after 9:30am

 

[island]

Please let us know if you need help drafting an appeal letter.

 

[egg426]

I 'got away' with it this time, but good to know I'd have support as the offer runs all month!

 

[AlterEgo]

Penalty fared for what reason exactly? You broke your journey quite legitimately on your ticket!

Glad to hear you weren't penalised, but it sounds like you were given seriously duff advice by the staff.

 

[Flying Snail]

Hi,

I was wondering if there's anything wrong with buying a Southern only travelcard from Epsom but only using it inside the zones?

I ask because I had some grief after arriving at Waterloo from Chessington - they said I was liable for a penalty fare. Before I go around telling them that I bought it online in the Southern sale, picked it up at Chessington and used it as a regular travelcard, is there any way it could be seen as fraud, as I had no intention of using it from Epsom?

Is there something unusual about the actual ticket, similar to ones previously highlighted on the forums that did not look like usual travelcards?

If there is not then I would say you dealt with one of the most dim staff members in London to claim a travelcard as invalid from a passenger arriving off a train which originated within the travelcard zones.

 

[causton]

Indeed, what's to suggest that they hadn't come from Epsom into the zones, then to Chessington, then to Waterloo???

 

[yorkie]

Hi,

I was wondering if there's anything wrong with buying a Southern only travelcard from Epsom but only using it inside the zones?

Nope.

H
I ask because I had some grief after arriving at Waterloo from Chessington - they said I was liable for a penalty fare.

That's not correct. Did they ask where you had travelled from?

H
Before I go around telling them that I bought it online in the Southern sale, picked it up at Chessington and used it as a regular travelcard, is there any way it could be seen as fraud, as I had no intention of using it from Epsom?

The ticket is only valid on Southern services from Epsom to the Zone 6 boundary. But within Zones 1-6 it is valid on any operators services.

I'd write to SWT, state the name of the person who said you are eligible for a Penalty Fare, and ask SWT what action they will take to ensure that such claims are not made in future. If you would like help drafting a letter, don't hesitate to ask.

 

[embers25]

Just so you know one of the SWT Gateline Revenue Protection Staff Managers at Waterloo is a piece of work who does not know the rules at all and so appealing for his presence won't help. There is also one particularly clueless female RPI too who also doesn't know the rules. They both operate using the view that they are always right and if you don't like it or challenge them they immediately call the police (who obviously don't know the rules) and basically say pay the penalty and appeal or be arrested! They are little hitlers and the power has gone to their head and lets face it as we have established numerous times on here SWT training on ticket validities and restrictions is awful.

 

[bb21]

I have regularly used Epsom tickets during Southern sales as they're cheaper than in-boundary travelcards. Never had a problem at Waterloo I must say. If the OP can PM us the name of such individual then I think we might be able to investigate the matter further. That is appalling advice if true. Personally I think if I received such advice at the gateline then I would be writing to Mr Souter himself, asking for an explanation.

 

[yorkie]

Just so you know one of the SWT Gateline Revenue Protection Staff Managers at Waterloo is a piece of work who does not know the rules at all and so appealing for his presence won't help. There is also one particularly clueless female RPI too who also doesn't know the rules. They both operate using the view that they are always right and if you don't like it or challenge them they immediately call the police (who obviously don't know the rules) and basically say pay the penalty and appeal or be arrested! They are little hitlers and the power has gone to their head and lets face it as we have established numerous times on here SWT training on ticket validities and restrictions is awful.

Please PM me with more info. I am going to London soon, perhaps I can get a Southern only Travelcard and do some 'mystery shopping'.

I've already been most unimpressed by rudeness by SWT staff at Waterloo when I made polite requests a couple of weeks ago. It was quite a change getting on the EC train back to York, like entering a different world compared to SWT.

 

[egg426]

I said I had come from Chessington, but she didn't take much notice. Unfortunately I didn't get her name - I should have learnt after forgetting to take the name of a ticket office clerk who refused to sell me a 1-9 travelcard and wouldn't accept rail vouchers! I haven't had much luck with trains recently...

 

[wibble]

It was quite a change getting on the EC train back to York, like entering a different world compared to SWT.

Whilst I'm not condoning any staff's poor attitude, they serve completely different markets....

 

[island]

Just so you know one of the SWT Gateline Revenue Protection Staff Managers at Waterloo is a piece of work who does not know the rules at all and so appealing for his presence won't help. There is also one particularly clueless female RPI too who also doesn't know the rules. They both operate using the view that they are always right and if you don't like it or challenge them they immediately call the police (who obviously don't know the rules) and basically say pay the penalty and appeal or be arrested! They are little hitlers and the power has gone to their head and lets face it as we have established numerous times on here SWT training on ticket validities and restrictions is awful.

That's rather tiresome. Especially when you have the unfettered right if issued a PF to pay only the single fare for the journey you have just made and proceed on your way, paying or appealing within the time limit.

 

[yorkie]

Whilst I'm not condoning any staff's poor attitude, they serve completely different markets....

And the relevance is...?

 

[Stigy]

This seems to be one of those things that's become a bone of contention if you like. The barriers at Waterloo will reject the ticket if it says "Southern Only" on it, which indicates that even SWT think it's invalid! I would say that a ticket marked "Southern Only" would only normally be valid at Victoria being a London Terminal, if it was a point to point ticket, but It's not feasible to restrict passengers to using just Southern Trains throughout the Zone system, surely? Or maybe given the fact that the ticket is a lot cheaper than standard Travelcards, maybe it's perfectly acceptable?

I don't profess to be an expert on ticketing routes, but if somebody showed up at Waterloo with ANY ticket displaying "Southern Only" on it, I'd wonder what they're doing on SWT services.

 

[island]

Well we do have a barrier programmer on the forums. As I understand it, it's possible to set the barriers to reject any route you like. But a Travelcard is valid on any service within the zones (as long as, if it's an off-peak Travelcard, it's after 0930).

 

[LexyBoy]

Well we do have a barrier programmer on the forums. As I understand it, it's possible to set the barriers to reject any route you like.

Yes, and I'd guess there's only a single "slot" for the route, so if it's "Southern Only" this will get rejected by barriers programmed not to accept SO tickets, even though the Travelcard is valid (in fact there is no concept of a "route" for a Travelcard, this wouldn't make sense).

I'd be pretty shocked if someone took issue with a "Southern Only" Travelcard at an inboundary station; surely Travelcards are one of the most basic and commonest tickets available!

Or maybe given the fact that the ticket is a lot cheaper than standard Travelcards, maybe it's perfectly acceptable?

The discount is provided by Southern, not by depriving other TOCs of revenue, so there is absolutely no reason to restrict travel within the Zones. Imagine if someone claimed the Travelcard would only be valid on Go-Ahead operated bus routes! And what about a "Virgin Only" Travelcard - that wouldn't be much use!

 

[bnm]

I don't profess to be an expert on ticketing routes, but if somebody showed up at Waterloo with ANY ticket displaying "Southern Only" on it, I'd wonder what they're doing on SWT services.

'Southern Only' refers only to the part of the journey from origin station to the first station that your service calls within the zonal area covered by the Travelcard. Once in the zonal area you are free to use any TOC for journeys within the zones.

Barriers at Waterloo rejecting a 'Southern Only' Travelcard should not become a bone of contention with staff. I assume that barriers are unable to differentiate between a TOC only point-to-point ticket and an outboundary Travelcard which has a TOC only element for the origin - zonal area part of the journey. Barrier staff would be totally out of order to say the ticket wasn't valid or to detain you.

 

[wibble]

This seems to be one of those things that's become a bone of contention if you like. The barriers at Waterloo will reject the ticket if it says "Southern Only" on it, which indicates that even SWT think it's invalid! I would say that a ticket marked "Southern Only" would only normally be valid at Victoria being a London Terminal, if it was a point to point ticket, but It's not feasible to restrict passengers to using just Southern Trains throughout the Zone system, surely? Or maybe given the fact that the ticket is a lot cheaper than standard Travelcards, maybe it's perfectly acceptable?

I don't profess to be an expert on ticketing routes, but if somebody showed up at Waterloo with ANY ticket displaying "Southern Only" on it, I'd wonder what they're doing on SWT services.

That's the problem with stations like Epsom which are served by both SWT and Southern. There's nothing at Epsom to stop people with 'Southern Only' Travelcards from boarding an SWT service and travelling to Waterloo. Southern will receive all the money for the rail journey from Epsom to the boundary of Zone 6 and SWT get to carry the passenger.

The chances of someone using a Southern service to Ewell East, walking to Ewell West (both stations are in Zone 6) and then travelling to Waterloo; or using the Southern service to Clapham Jn then changing on to SWT are tiny...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And the relevance is...?

If you spent your day listening to nasty little scrotes giving you excuses as to why you didn't have a ticket or giving you abuse, wouldn't you be a little miserable?

 

[egg426]

The discount is provided by Southern, not by depriving other TOCs of revenue

I thought that by buying a travelcard from a Southern area, most of the money from it goes to Southern as opposed to SWT if I had bought it from one of their stations. Not that it has any effect on validity or anything.

Another thought I had was that surely people wanting to go from Epsom to Vauxhall or Waterloo on the cheap might go to Clapham Junction on Southern, then change onto SWT?

 

[LexyBoy]

I thought that by buying a travelcard from a Southern area, most of the money from it goes to Southern as opposed to SWT if I had bought it from one of their stations. Not that it has any effect on validity or anything.

I don't know the details of how ORCATS works, but I'd think that Southern would receive all the money for the journey as far as Z6, then an amount - presumably roughly the same for any Travelcard - would be distributed among all the London TOCs in a standard ratio. Plus the commission for the seller (Southern in this case).

Another thought I had was that surely people wanting to go from Epsom to Vauxhall or Waterloo on the cheap might go to Clapham Junction on Southern, then change onto SWT?

Exactly, not too unusual I'd have thought. Of course, if it was a Southern Only ticket to London Terminals, then that would be different...

 

[bb21]

The chances of someone using a Southern service to Ewell East, walking to Ewell West (both stations are in Zone 6) and then travelling to Waterloo; or using the Southern service to Clapham Jn then changing on to SWT are tiny...

That is pure speculation may I say.

If you spent your day listening to nasty little scrotes giving you excuses as to why you didn't have a ticket or giving you abuse, wouldn't you be a little miserable?

That's fine. However that should not interfere with the validity of tickets.

 

[trc666]

As an SWT employee I can say that ALL 'Southern Only' routed tickets are rejected by the barriers whether they are point-to-point or include a Travelcard as this is the only way we can properly check them. When the ticket includes a Travelcard it only becomes Southern Only when outside the zones - we're told to remind passengers that only the Travelcard portion is valid but not the ticket itself if it is used at Vauxhall or London Waterloo. Southern Only point-to-point tickets are not valid at Vauxhall or London Waterloo, but still we tend to get a lot of people travelling from Portsmouth Harbour, Southampton Central, Epsom and Dorking on these tickets.

 

[embers25]

Being a travelcard the ticket is ALWAYS valid at Vauxhall and Waterloo provided it is within travelcard valid times and the fact the barriers reject them is frankly ridiculous. My guess knowing SWT is that they figure by adding the inconvenience of having to be let through the barriers each time people may decide to avoid the hassle and get the higher priced ticket that covers SWT as well. I say again typical SWT just like their barriers don't accept break of journey at many stations. I'm tempted to buy one and just spend an hour or so going backwards and forwards through the barriers tying up their staff. If enough people did it at once you could tie up every staff member and cause chaos at a busy period as I can't see how they could refuse to keep opening them as the ticket is perfectly valid and its not my fault SWT treat passengers like crap.

 

[island]

I'd say it's more likely that they can't program the barriers to distinguish between a point-to-point ticket routed Southern Only and a travelcard routed Southern Only.

 

[bb21]

Being a travelcard the ticket is ALWAYS valid at Vauxhall and Waterloo provided it is within travelcard valid times and the fact the barriers reject them is frankly ridiculous. My guess knowing SWT is that they figure by adding the inconvenience of having to be let through the barriers each time people may decide to avoid the hassle and get the higher priced ticket that covers SWT as well. I say again typical SWT just like their barriers don't accept break of journey at many stations. I'm tempted to buy one and just spend an hour or so going backwards and forwards through the barriers tying up their staff. If enough people did it at once you could tie up every staff member and cause chaos at a busy period as I can't see how they could refuse to keep opening them as the ticket is perfectly valid and its not my fault SWT treat passengers like crap.

That is frankly, a rather immature thing to do. I can understand why SWT does this at London Waterloo, as I imagine that, for whatever reason, there is a significant minority of travellers who end up with Southern Only point-to-point tickets at one of the stations that Southern do not serve, for a few rather profitable flows for SWT, such as Southampton Central / Portsmouth - London Terminals. I suspect that the gates cannot differentiate a travelcard from a point-to-point ticket not because SWT want to inconvenience travellers, but rather that the gates cannot have a more sophisticated algorithm programmed in. Even if SWT were trying to cause inconvenience amongst travellers, which I can't see the incentive for, how is making things difficult, for everyone, going to help?

 

[swt_passenger]

... we're told to remind passengers that only the Travelcard portion is valid but not the ticket itself if it is used at Vauxhall or London Waterloo.

But the ticket doesn't have a separate 'Travelcard portion' - it is a single part outboundary travelcard - it is fully valid at any station within zones 1-6 and Vauxhall and Waterloo are of no more significance than anywhere else.

If what you are quoting is indeed the 'official' SWT explanation (or staff guidance) then it is very badly worded.

I don't disagree that some people will likely try and use 'route Southern' tickets on longer distance services from all over the overlapping area such as down in South Hants, but surely they should be discovered by the regular on train checks?

 

[yorkie]

I don't profess to be an expert on ticketing routes, but if somebody showed up at Waterloo with ANY ticket displaying "Southern Only" on it, I'd wonder what they're doing on SWT services.

I was previously under the impression you did tickets. If you do, I am concerned (though not surprised) at what SWT are doing!

As an SWT employee ....

Long time no see (2005?!) good to see you're still around!

That's the problem with stations like Epsom which are served by both SWT and Southern. There's nothing at Epsom to stop people with 'Southern Only' Travelcards from boarding an SWT service and travelling to Waterloo. Southern will receive all the money for the rail journey from Epsom to the boundary of Zone 6 and SWT get to carry the passenger.

The chances of someone using a Southern service to Ewell East, walking to Ewell West (both stations are in Zone 6) and then travelling to Waterloo; or using the Southern service to Clapham Jn then changing on to SWT are tiny...

Thanks for the idea Might try that some time!

If you spent your day listening to nasty little scrotes giving you excuses as to why you didn't have a ticket or giving you abuse, wouldn't you be a little miserable?

I would hope that SWT wouldn't accept that as an excuse.

Many people have jobs that involve dealing with "scrotes giving you excuses" from time to time, that doesn't give an excuse to be rude to customers IMO.

 

[GarethW]

SWT staff are getting worse and worse I'm afraid - whilst the vast majority remain very pleasant if sometimes rather clueless, there do seem to be an increasing number of "tools" around.

For example in the last couple of months I've been challenged/given hassle for break of journey at Basingstoke and Winchester three or four times when returning from Reading/London on Day Returns. Its flipping basic that BoJ is allowed on outward and return journeys on these SWT tickets.