Northern’s New Trains, Possible Interior Spec Speculation

[Class 323 Fan]

Would Stadler even be in the mix politically especially with a Labour govermenent who need to do something in/for the North to have any hope of getting reelected. I would imagine not so one of the others with factories here need to find a level.boarding solution for the uk guage.

But hasn't Stadler produced some of the best Modern trains, why remove them as an option, think we deserve good trains lol

 

[Snow1964]

Bombardier is the logical choice, all the other British factories are relatively busy (especially Siemens) and CAF is only an assembly factory.

These days they are all just assembly factory.

None of them fabricates the bogies, or winds motors, makes the doors, or has an upholstery shop making seats etc. All the stuff that was done in house 100 years ago. Some of these sub assemblies will come from group owned factories, but very few are in UK.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But hasn't Stadler produced some of the best Modern trains

I present you the Class 777

 

[Class 323 Fan]

I present you the Class 777

Yes lol, I've not actually gone in them yet, but they look wonderful, I hope Northern gets some Class 756 type trains. We need more FLIRTS

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Bombardier is the logical choice, all the other British factories are relatively busy (especially Siemens) and CAF is only an assembly factory.

Bombardier is now part of Alstom

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I’d be surprised if it goes to a single manufacturer for the whole lot.

Would be easier to do this. But the 331s are quite nice to ride on, apart from seats, so I'd hope the EMU lot goes to CAF, then the rest to Stadler.

 

[Snow1964]

I’d be surprised if it goes to a single manufacturer for the whole lot.

Would be easier to do this. But the 331s are quite nice to ride on, apart from seats, so I'd hope the EMU lot goes to CAF, then the rest to Stadler.

The 333s are 25-26 years old, so will be over 30 years old when new fleet enters service. So likely to be withdrawn late 2030s as final parts of Northern new 2030s fleet get delivered.

Seating tends to come from specialist manufacturers and obviously there are hundreds of them in a unit (and tens of thousands in whole fleet), so tends to be lot of cost pressure to choose a cheaper budget less comfortable version than premium high quality comfortable for 3+ hours seats.

Think about it if can save £200 each on 30,000 seats, it's few million pounds of incentive to fit cheapest regardless of comfort.

 

[D365]

Bombardier is the logical choice, all the other British factories are relatively busy (especially Siemens) and CAF is only an assembly factory.

Alstom Litchurch Lane, I assume you mean.

Is Hitachi in Newton Aycliffe especially busy at the moment?

 

[InkyScrolls]

The 331s are 26-27 years old, so will be over 30 years old when new fleet enters service. So likely to be withdrawn late 2030s as final parts of Northern new 2030s fleet get delivered.

It's the 333s you're thinking of; the 331s are still nearly new.

 

[stevieinselby]

The 331s are 26-27 years old, so will be over 30 years old when new fleet enters service. So likely to be withdrawn late 2030s as final parts of Northern new 2030s fleet get delivered.

Do you mean 333s?

 

[Class 323 Fan]

The 333s are 25-26 years old, so will be over 30 years old when new fleet enters service. So likely to be withdrawn late 2030s as final parts of Northern new 2030s fleet get delivered.

Seating tends to come from specialist manufacturers and obviously there are hundreds of them in a unit (and tens of thousands in whole fleet), so tends to be lot of cost pressure to choose a cheaper budget less comfortable version than premium high quality comfortable for 3+ hours seats.

Think about it if can save £200 each on 30,000 seats, it's few million pounds of incentive to fit cheapest regardless of comfort.

I'm not talking about the 333s, in talking about the 331s

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes lol, I've not actually gone in them yet, but they look wonderful, I hope Northern gets some Class 756 type trains. We need more FLIRTS

I think the phrase is "unreliable junk", and that's before you even get to the woefully designed interior. They really are rubbish in my view.

Other FLIRTs like the Welsh ones are better, but I don't think Stadler has squashed them into UK gauge particularly well to be honest.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

I think the phrase is "unreliable junk", and that's before you even get to the woefully designed interior. They really are rubbish in my view.

Other FLIRTs like the Welsh ones are better, but I don't think Stadler has squashed them into UK gauge particularly well to be honest.

What's actually wrong with the interior?

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Hopefully the approach won't be the "one size fits all" that we got with the 195s and 331s. The layout of those fleets is clearly tailored for regional medium-distance services (remember "Northern Connect"?) rather than all-stops commuter runs. Great* on the 195s which are working Blackpool to York or Leeds to Nottingham but less than ideal on the 331s working Airedale and Wharfedale.

*= "Great" in terms of having tables and 2+2, that is. I'm not going to get into the quality/comfort (or otherwise) of the seats themselves.

Could you elaborate on what the “one size fits all” means
Thanks

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's actually wrong with the interior?

What's not wrong with it?

Clumsy layout, hard seats with an uncomfortable shape, odd side panelling perfect for stuffing litter into, bad CIS, poor quality lighting LEDs meaning lots of failures.....

I know low floor is a "killer app" but I find the Class 730/0 a far better way to do a similar thing. While the seats are also narrow and hard it is just a much nicer and more practically laid out interior. Personally I'd be more than happy with 730/0 like units on Manchester suburbans.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

What's not wrong with it?

Clumsy layout, hard seats with an uncomfortable shape, odd side panelling perfect for stuffing litter into, bad CIS, poor quality lighting LEDs meaning lots of failures.....

I know low floor is a "killer app" but I find the Class 730/0 a far better way to do a similar thing. While the seats are also narrow and hard it is just a much nicer and more practically laid out interior. Personally I'd be more than happy with 730/0 like units on Manchester suburbans.

I actually haven't been on the flirts yet, would you prefer a 150? And rock hard seats are elected on a new train now unfortunately

 

[Bletchleyite]

I actually haven't been on the flirts yet, would you prefer a 150?

I'd take more or less anything over those Merseyrail units. Maybe not a 150/2 or Merseyrail spec Pacer though

And rock hard seats are elected on a new train now unfortunately

A lot aren't as bad as those ones. They're a bad shape too, they force my shoulders forwards. The opposite of good posture!

In short I'd rather the 730/0 was used as an example for Manchester suburban unit interiors rather than 777s

 

[D365]

I actually haven't been on the flirts yet, would you prefer a 150?

This surprises me, as you appear to be steadfast in your opinion that Northern needs FLIRTs?

 

[Class 323 Fan]

This surprises me, as you appear to be steadfast in your opinion that Northern needs FLIRTs?

I have heard great reviews from Stadler's train, which justifies my opinion

 

[rmHawk765]

I'd personally think it's better to go for someone with bi-mode experience, i.e not Alstom. I don't really understand what bars Stadler from being a contender, it's not like any of these manufacturers are 'our own' anyway so it presents no political benefit. This is slightly off-topic though.

The FLIRT interior is a novel idea for sure and I don't think there's anything wrong with it. That said I think a more commuter-style interior is a strength of Bombardier/Alstom, as shown with the Aventras, with the regional side of things being best to leave to Stadler.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Could you elaborate on what the “one size fits all” means
Thanks

When the 195s and 331s were ordered, the plan was for most of them (particularly the 195s) to operate "Northern Connect" services which were going to be more of a regional express type service. However all units including the 331s for West Yorkshire were delivered with an interior layout suited to that use, with tables and fairly low-density 2+2 seating... great for York to Blackpool but not so great for a rush-hour service on the Airedale line. With hindsight a higher-density interior for the 331s (possibly all of them, possibly just the 3-car variant) would have been a better choice IMO.

I know people like to moan about 3+2, but on routes that carry a lot of schools traffic the 3-side usually does have all 3 seats used. Not sure I'd have gone with 3+2 for the Yorkshire 331s but I'd definitely do away with the tables and facing bays. Until we started getting the 6-car formations, a 4-car 331 was a decrease in capacity compared to the 321/322 units they replaced.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

I'd personally think it's better to go for someone with bi-mode experience, i.e not Alstom. I don't really understand what bars Stadler from being a contender, it's not like any of these manufacturers are 'our own' anyway so it presents no political benefit. This is slightly off-topic though.

The FLIRT interior is a novel idea for sure and I don't think there's anything wrong with it. That said I think a more commuter-style interior is a strength of Bombardier/Alstom, as shown with the Aventras, with the regional side of things being best to leave to Stadler.

i much prefer a 730 interior though, it looks nice, I just don't like the screen on the ceilings, I much prefer the style the northern 331s and 195s has.

 

[RailWonderer]

Bombardier is the logical choice, all the other British factories are relatively busy (especially Siemens) and CAF is only an assembly factory.

I don't think Siemens will be so busy. They'll most likley get the Bakerloo line then maybe the Central line order in a few years time. They can also build some in Germany or Austria, so Siemens is definitely an option. I think Alstom Derby will almost certainly get some of the order though.

Given the variety of Northern routes and how much random unit generator business goes on I think a one size fits all interior 195 style is the way to go, which is basically a 170 but a bit more packed in. Maybe a couple less table seats and a few more airline seats is the best solution. It will get a bit overcrowded on busy event days and during disruption but it's the best comprimise.

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Clumsy layout, hard seats with an uncomfortable shape, odd side panelling perfect for stuffing litter into, bad CIS, poor quality lighting LEDs meaning lots of failures.....

The 745s are my regular train even I trip up on the ramp and bonk my head on the overhead luggage racks occasionally still. There is an announcement that plays 'please mind your step in the raised seating area'. They're still one of the finest trains in the country even with their faults.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

I don't think Siemens will be so busy. They'll most likley get the Bakerloo line then maybe the Central line order in a few years time. They can also build some in Germany or Austria, so Siemens is definitely an option. I think Alstom Derby will almost certainly get some of the order though.

Given the variety of Northern routes and how much random unit generator business goes on I think a one size fits all interior 195 style is the way to go, which is basically a 170 but a bit more packed in. Maybe a couple less table seats and a few more airline seats is the best solution. It will get a bit overcrowded on busy event days and during disruption but it's the best comprimise.

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The 475s are my regular train and even I trip up on the ramp and bonk my head on the overhead luggage racks occasionally still. There is an announcement that plays 'please mind your step in the raised seating area'.

A 730 interior is perfect for the route I think, but with more tables.

 

[AlastairFraser]

But hasn't Stadler produced some of the best Modern trains, why remove them as an option, think we deserve good trains lol

expensive as well as external investment

These days they are all just assembly factory.

None of them fabricates the bogies, or winds motors, makes the doors, or has an upholstery shop making seats etc. All the stuff that was done in house 100 years ago. Some of these sub assemblies will come from group owned factories, but very few are in UK.

True, although I do think there's a difference between a factory that imports nearly all or all of the components from a factory abroad (e.g. early Hitachi at Newton Aycliffe or CAF near Newport), compared to a manufacturer that mostly builds and develops most designs/components in Britain.

 

[py_megapixel]

i much prefer a 730 interior though, it looks nice, I just don't like the screen on the ceilings, I much prefer the style the northern 331s and 195s has.

Putting it on the ceiling gives it a line of sight from much more of the carriage. You can see it while stood in the vestibules etc. So given the purpose of the information screen is to be visible to passengers, it's fairly easy to see why they've done it like that.

I don't really mind that much as long as they don't put them as low as the East Midlands 158s. I can bash my head on those!

 

[AlastairFraser]

Bombardier is now part of Alstom

True, just a slight snafu, apologies.

Alstom Litchurch Lane, I assume you mean.

Is Hitachi in Newton Aycliffe especially busy at the moment?

Yes, I mean Alstom Litchurch Lane.
Well, they have the Grand Central order and the HS2 order (plus further potential for a few more open access operations + add on HS2 units).

I'd personally think it's better to go for someone with bi-mode experience, i.e not Alstom. I don't really understand what bars Stadler from being a contender, it's not like any of these manufacturers are 'our own' anyway so it presents no political benefit. This is slightly off-topic though.

Alstom do have bi-mode experience, they are currently building bi-modes for the DART network in Dublin, and for the Wellington suburban network in New Zealand.
Don't forget the Coradia LINT series too.

I don't think Siemens will be so busy. They'll most likley get the Bakerloo line then maybe the Central line order in a few years time. They can also build some in Germany or Austria, so Siemens is definitely an option. I think Alstom Derby will almost certainly get some of the order though.

Given the variety of Northern routes and how much random unit generator business goes on I think a one size fits all interior 195 style is the way to go, which is basically a 170 but a bit more packed in. Maybe a couple less table seats and a few more airline seats is the best solution. It will get a bit overcrowded on busy event days and during disruption but it's the best comprimise.

The Bakerloo, Central and Waterloo & City line orders will be 126 units. That is a considerable amount, and the Northern stock will need replacing at some point (especially if a split between the branches eventually happens).
Siemens may well also get an order for additional Desiros from Southeastern when they replace the Networkers (fleet simplification and the fact it's a proven product on their network is a major advantage).

Agree about the interior. The 195 interior works relatively well; although for pure EMUs, 730s would work well.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

Putting it on the ceiling gives it a line of sight from much more of the carriage. You can see it while stood in the vestibules etc. So given the purpose of the information screen is to be visible to passengers, it's fairly easy to see why they've done it like that.

I don't really mind that much as long as they don't put them as low as the East Midlands 158s. I can bash my head on those!

I see, it does make sense, why did Northern remove coach numbers? I preferred the screen format from when they were introduced, along with Trisha Jarman voicing the announcements

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agree about the interior. The 195 interior works relatively well; although for pure EMUs, 730s would work well.

The 195 is a decent compromise for units that work anything from a 2 hour fast to Windermere to a 25 minute Rose Hill stopper. A bit like the 196 though different in implementation.

For EMUs that will only work urban and local services the higher density, more standee layout of the 730/0 is probably better.

3+2 has largely gone in the bin and rightly so. Narrow 2+2 with a very wide aisle is better for commuter trains as it enables a very high standee load.

 

[Snow1964]

3+2 has largely gone in the bin and rightly so. Narrow 2+2 with a very wide aisle is better for commuter trains as it enables a very high standee load.

Don't agree about narrow 2+2 seats

Being knocked by neighbours elbows (or being squashed if they are not skinny) on a medium to busy train is not fun. And it doesn't really work on a crush loaded train either as people overhang the side of the seats, so don't get 2 neat rows of standees.

Better to have full width seats, and accept can't get 2 full rows of standees in. Otherwise ruin the off peak ambiance and don't really gain when busy either. Narrow 2+2 is all downsides for potential customers, and no gain in reality.

 

[William3000]

But hasn't Stadler produced some of the best Modern trains, why remove them as an option, think we deserve good trains lol

In a word yes. The 745 is excellent for mid range intercity services, and the 755s are equally outstanding. Rural routes in East Anglia benefit from the best regional train in the country by some margin.

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I'd personally think it's better to go for someone with bi-mode experience, i.e not Alstom. I don't really understand what bars Stadler from being a contender, it's not like any of these manufacturers are 'our own' anyway so it presents no political benefit. This is slightly off-topic though.

The FLIRT interior is a novel idea for sure and I don't think there's anything wrong with it. That said I think a more commuter-style interior is a strength of Bombardier/Alstom, as shown with the Aventras, with the regional side of things being best to leave to Stadler.

The interior of a 745 is excellent. When travelling on the WAML I regularly go via Stansted Airport to benefit from the comfortable experience compared to the woeful design of the 720.

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The 195 is a decent compromise for units that work anything from a 2 hour fast to Windermere to a 25 minute Rose Hill stopper. A bit like the 196 though different in implementation.

For EMUs that will only work urban and local services the higher density, more standee layout of the 730/0 is probably better.

3+2 has largely gone in the bin and rightly so. Narrow 2+2 with a very wide aisle is better for commuter trains as it enables a very high standee load.

Sadly the awful 3+2 configuration is alive and well on the appalling class 720s

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sadly the awful 3+2 configuration is alive and well on the appalling class 720s

The Class 720 is without doubt the worst UK rail interior since the Merseytravel Pacer, and for a long time before that too! 3+2 in a narrow 24m vehicle should never even have been attempted. (Yes, I know, 323s and Networkers, but those are both quite wide despite being 23m). Northern should absolutely not follow that example.

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In a word yes. The 745 is excellent for mid range intercity services, and the 755s are equally outstanding. Rural routes in East Anglia benefit from the best regional train in the country by some margin.

The interior of a 745 is excellent. When travelling on the WAML I regularly go via Stansted Airport to benefit from the comfortable experience compared to the woeful design of the 720.

A wooden plank in an open topped flat wagon would probably be better than a 720. I don't overly agree about the 755 - certainly it's much better than a 150 or 156, but it's not the best, it's cramped and a bit clumsy in layout. I wouldn't call them excellent, and I'd say most UK intercity stock is more comfortable than 745s, or at least would be if Sophias didn't have the metal bar.

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Don't agree about narrow 2+2 seats

Being knocked by neighbours elbows (or being squashed if they are not skinny) on a medium to busy train is not fun. And it doesn't really work on a crush loaded train either as people overhang the side of the seats, so don't get 2 neat rows of standees.

Better to have full width seats, and accept can't get 2 full rows of standees in. Otherwise ruin the off peak ambiance and don't really gain when busy either. Narrow 2+2 is all downsides for potential customers, and no gain in reality.

I think there's room for compromise here. A 45cm (rather than 43.5cm as per the 730/0) seat width with a one inch gap by the sidewall and a 1-2 inch gap between the seats works fairly well to avoid people sticking out, but you do gain a bit of space by not having an armrest on the aisle side (as well as not having to deal with damaged armrests). This is roughly how the 700 is (as are classes 172 and 196), and it's noticeable on the Merseyrail 777s that it's more comfortable when you get a unit with the seats spaced about an inch from the wall rather than one with them right up against it. (Yes, they're not consistent, some units have all seats spaced, some have none, and some have some spaced and some not - it's one of the many signs of these units being a really shoddy job!)

Yes, people like armrests, but if they're on a local stopping service they don't *need* them.

If only one interior is possible, though, for interoperability reasons, then I'd look at something like the 195, though probably with more airline seating. The stand backs are what really makes a difference in terms of ability to move around and standee capacity.

 

[RailWonderer]

The Class 720 is without doubt the worst UK rail interior since the Merseytravel Pacer, and for a long time before that too! 3+2 in a narrow 24m vehicle should never even have been attempted. (Yes, I know, 323s and Networkers, but those are both quite wide despite being 23m). Northern should absolutely not follow that example.

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I can't avoid them on my line but in 2016 when record numbers of commuters were piling into London there was a DfT directive in the rolling stock bid to have a certain high number of seats per coach which could only mean 24m and 3+2 with all the tip up seats as they could fit in so it is what it is. My rucksack always hits the seat handles when I move down the aisle and the seats are harder than the 701s Fainsa seats, legroom is poor as well, poorer than in our Stadler Flirts but at least they're only used on short journeys (unless you do Clacton/Harwich to London on them).

On the busiest peak trains there isn't enough standing room because of the narrow aisles and vestibules, but this was the DfT ordering a certain spec so thoughtful design came second was nonexistant.

A wooden plank in an open topped flat wagon would probably be better than a 720. I don't overly agree about the 755 - certainly it's much better than a 150 or 156, but it's not the best, it's cramped and a bit clumsy in layout. I wouldn't call them excellent, and I'd say most UK intercity stock is more comfortable than 745s, or at least would be if Sophias didn't have the metal bar.

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I'd have a 745 from London to Cornwall or Scotland anyday over an IET, even with the Avanti or Lumo seats, as long as you're not over 6ft the softened FISA lean is the best modern era standard class seat. The cushion on those Avanti/Lumo seats is flat whereas it's arced on the FISA which makes puts less pressure on your backside.