Kings Cross Thameslink - West Hampstead Lines

[03_179]

Ok hopefully someone can understand this:

When Thameslink was being built were the lines between Kings Cross Thameslink and West Hampstead Thameslink all new lines (i.e. new tunnels etc.) ?

I know the original Kings Cross Thameslink (Midland City station had services to Kings Cross York Road then up the East Coast mainline.
Thanks in advance,

 

[swt_passenger]

The 2 track Midland curve under St Pancras that connects the widened lines towards West Hampstead dates from the 19th century - having since checked Joe Brown’s atlas they opened about 1868, about 5 years after the two ECML/GN curves, the York Road and Hotel curves.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The 2 track Midland curve under St Pancras that connects the widened lines towards West Hampstead dates from the 19th century - having since checked Joe Brown’s atlas they opened about 1868, about 5 years after the two ECML/GN curves, the York Road and Hotel curves.

According to wiki the Widended Lines date to 1866.

Widened Lines - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Naming the route as ThamesLink was more than one hundred years later.

 

[The exile]

According to wiki the Widended Lines date to 1866.

Widened Lines - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Naming the route as ThamesLink was more than one hundred years later.

The station was Kings Cross Midland City before the days of Thameslink. Not sure when that name dated from, though.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The station was Kings Cross Midland City before the days of Thameslink. Not sure when that name dated from, though.

The disused stations website has that name change dating from 1978 when the electric service "Bedpan" started.

Up to 1940, it was the site of the Metropolitan Line station for Kings Cross. You can still see the disused platforms at the site.

Disused Stations: Kings Cross Thameslink Station

 

[The exile]

The disused stations website has that name change dating from 1978 when the electric service "Bedpan" started.

Up to 1940, it was the site of the Metropolitan Line station for Kings Cross. You can still see the disused platforms at the site.

Disused Stations: Kings Cross Thameslink Station

Surely the electric service didn’t start till 1983 (lines of idle new 317s being one of the images of the 1982 disputes). 1978 would if anything been the GN, though I thought that was earlier.

 

[03_179]

So the tracks between KGX TL and West Hampstead TL stations were there

Thanks

 

[John Webb]

The connection from the Midland main line dropping down to join the 'widened lines' dates from 1868, when the rest of the 'London Extension' from Bedford to the new St Pancras terminal was opened. It was known as "The St Pancras Branch" rather confusingly, and ran from St Paul's Junction to King's Cross Junction on the Metropolitan Railway.

 

[Helvellyn]

So the tracks between KGX TL and West Hampstead TL stations were there

Thanks

Yes, and West Hampstead Thameslink was known as West Hampstead Midland between 1950 and 1988. Before that it was known variously as:

• West End for Kilburn and Hampstead
• West End
• West End and Brondesbury
• West Hampstead

 

[03_179]

Thank you

 

[30907]

So the tracks between KGX TL and West Hampstead TL stations were there

Thanks

Yes, and AFAIK the present STP station is built on the existing alignment.

 

[Snow1964]

Yes, and AFAIK the present STP station is built on the existing alignment.

Which was originally a brick lined tunnel. Midland Road was opened up and the tunnel enlarged to a station cavern with tracks in same place. At the north end junctions were added and two new single track tunnels created to the line from Kings Cross. They stayed empty for a few years.

The original station in the tunnels was nearer Farringdon, and being designed for steam trains was open (if look at satellite view near Wicklow Street and Leeke Street can see it. Two side platforms and island servicing 4 tracks.

When St Pancras station was being built the Metropolitan line passed in front and there was a potential plan to continue the widened lines, so a second tunnel was built. In 1930s this was extended west and a junction added (near Ossulston Street / Euston Road), the Met was diverted through it and a similar tunnel built for westbound trains on south side, the original running tunnel is now a concourse (and for many years had short sidings at western end). The Met platforms in the old station were closed when these opened.

 

[swt_passenger]

According to wiki the Widended Lines date to 1866.

Widened Lines - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Naming the route as ThamesLink was more than one hundred years later.

The widened lines from Kings Cross towards Moorgate were opened first. But the opening of the Midland curve was slightly later, on 13 July 1868, as recorded in the newspapers of the day (that I’ve found on the British Newspaper Archive). In any case I’d probably always go with Joe Brown’s detailed research rather than Wiki.

 

[Taunton]

The tunnels from Kentish Town to the Widened Lines were extremely tight to gauge, and BR steam-hauled 64' standard coaches were not permitted; 57' non corridor ones were specially built for it, with less swing on the curves. Likewise the standard ventilators on the roof were foul, and they had to be repositioned nearer the gutters. This extended to replacing dmus, where from both the Midland and the GN lines short-car low density Cravens units were initially used. Something must have been eased out, because these were later replaced by standard units. However Thameslink managed to later still fit 25kV overhead inside, and use standard emus, is something I've never seen explained.

 

[Snow1964]

The tunnels from Kentish Town to the Widened Lines were extremely tight to gauge, and BR steam-hauled 64' standard coaches were not permitted; 57' non corridor ones were specially built for it, with less swing on the curves. Likewise the standard ventilators on the roof were foul, and they had to be repositioned nearer the gutters. This extended to replacing dmus, where from both the Midland and the GN lines short-car low density Cravens units were initially used. Something must have been eased out, because these were later replaced by standard units. However Thameslink managed to later still fit 25kV overhead inside, and use standard emus, is something I've never seen explained.

From memory the track was removed around 45 years ago, and slab track installed directly on the invert. Lower than original rail height and it is fixed in position so less likely to drift towards tunnel walls.

I am sure one of the railway magazines in early 1980s had a photo of a 317 with bits of polystyrene stuck on all the corners making it wider and taller, low tech gauging, but if that cleared everything then trains would be clear.

 

[Taunton]

Lowering the track is never as easy as it sounds as it will then disrupt the drainage, which is particularly relevant to the Widened Lines as a longstanding flooding point is/was at Ray Street, north of Farringdon, where they dip down and pass beneath the Circle Line tracks. Although used by BR trains the Widened Lines were actually owned by the Underground, who retained the last of the old Metropolitan A Class tank locos until well after WW2 as it could be fitted with a steam pump to come there and pump out floodwater when required. I believe there is still an automatic electric pump there.

 

[AM9]

From memory the track was removed around 45 years ago, and slab track installed directly on the invert. Lower than original rail height and it is fixed in position so less likely to drift towards tunnel walls.

I am sure one of the railway magazines in early 1980s had a photo of a 317 with bits of polystyrene stuck on all the corners making it wider and taller, low tech gauging, but if that cleared everything then trains would be clear.

I also have memories of an article on TV, ( may have been Tomorrow's World) showing Measurement train that cast a radial band of light shining at the tunnel walls. There was a camera recording this that was later analysed to establish the clearance along the route. I think.ot was along the City Thameslink to Farringdon section where hitherto no modern MK 3 stock had run. On that programme, mention was made of the then practice of attaching sacrificial foam plastic strips for bridge and platform clearance measurement.

 

[John Webb]

According to John Gough's "Chronology of the Midland Railway" (1989) the Widened Lines were transferred to the BR Board from London Transport in October 1977. The line to Moorgate was electrified by late 1981 and energised in March 1982.

The line from Farringdon to Ludgate Hill Junction was reopened in April 1988.

 

[Haywain]

This extended to replacing dmus, where from both the Midland and the GN lines short-car low density Cravens units were initially used. Something must have been eased out, because these were later replaced by standard units.

On the Midland side, class 127 DMUs never operated to Moorgate with a small separate fleet maintained for those services.

 

[Helvellyn]

The tight clearances will be one of the reasons the 700s are still approx. 20m cars in fixed 8-car/12-car formations (approx. 160m/240m unit length), when they could possibly have considered 7-car/10-car formations with approx. 23m cars (approx 161m/230m unit length).

 

[Russel]

For such a short section of route, the Thameslink core must be one one the most complex to understand, from a history point of view.

Jago Hazzard did a video on the Widerned lines a while back, I'll have to re-watch it.

 

[Taunton]

On the Midland side, class 127 DMUs never operated to Moorgate with a small separate fleet maintained for those services.

I think (because I never saw them) they replaced the Cravens cars with used 3-car class 116, secondhand from the Western Region, which were the same dimensions as the 127s, but the latter, in 4-car sets, were too long for the platforms on the Widened Lines in 8-car sets, and insufficient if only a single 4-car set.

 

[DerekC]

This extract from the London Town Plans surveyed in 1871 shows in outline the tunnels to the south of Kings Cross main line station, with the Metropolitan Railway crossing the map left to right and its Kings Cross station over to the right. The Widened Lines tunnels are just to the north of the Met. They start at a blank end under Skinner Street (off this extract), with the Midland Curve coming down from Dock Junction, the Hotel Curve (GNR) from what later became Kings Cross Suburban and the York Road curve entering the Met Kings Cross station just at its western end. The thing it doesn't show is the short lived north to west curve from York Road which crossed the Hotel Curve on the level very close to its junction with the Widened Lines. The full map is available on the National Library of Scotland website here:

https://maps.nls.uk/view/229950101

 

[Snow1964]

For such a short section of route, the Thameslink core must be one one the most complex to understand, from a history point of view.

Jago Hazzard did a video on the Widerned lines a while back, I'll have to re-watch it.

Historically there was :
Great Northern (with a goods depot between Farringdon Road and Farringdon station)
Midland (goods depot at Whitecross Street), before line was moved as part of post WW2 bomb site Barbican redevelopment
Great Western (goods depot at Smithfield)
Metropolitan (that owned the running lines, and ran passenger services)
South Eastern and Chatham that owned lines via Blackfriars to just north of Snow Hill
District Railway also ran trains via Farringdon on inner circle

 

[Taunton]

The connecting tunnel to the Midland Line, let alone all the rest of the Underground infrastructure there, must have been a considerable nuisance to designers, firstly of the 1939 rebuilding of the Circle Line station in a better position at Kings Cross, where the connecting passages had to be threaded around it, and a couple of generations later in the St Pancras reconstruction.

 

[Bald Rick]

I also have memories of an article on TV, ( may have been Tomorrow's World) showing Measurement train that cast a radial band of light shining at the tunnel walls. There was a camera recording this that was later analysed to establish the clearance along the route. I think.ot was along the City Thameslink to Farringdon section where hitherto no modern MK 3 stock had run. On that programme, mention was made of the then practice of attaching sacrificial foam plastic strips for bridge and platform clearance measurement.

Yes I remember that on Tomorrow’s World in about 1988 (Judith Hann being the presenter who visited). It was the Structure Gauging Train, and being used in the Snow Hill tunnels. From memory it showed the tunnel had a little more clearance than the drawings showed, but that was because the track had been relaid. I still have a VHS video of that somewhere. (If nothing to play it on).

 

[AM9]

Judith Hann who I believe has (or had) lived in St Albans.
The idea of the band of light was that a video/film was taken where an intrusion into its beam could be located for closer examination later. Much quicker than watching lumps of foam hitting the walls/roof, then having to stop and replace them before moving on. I assume that laser clearance checking is a no brainer these days?

 

[steamybrian]

The line from Farringdon to Ludgate Hill Junction was reopened in April 1988.

The original tunnel was closed in May 1990 for track re-alignment . The new alignment included the opening of St Pauls Thameslink (later City Thameslink) station on the site of but at a lower level than Holborn Viaduct which had closed in January 1990.

 

[edwin_m]

Judith Hann who I believe has (or had) lived in St Albans.
The idea of the band of light was that a video/film was taken where an intrusion into its beam could be located for closer examination later. Much quicker than watching lumps of foam hitting the walls/roof, then having to stop and replace them before moving on. I assume that laser clearance checking is a no brainer these days?

I worked with some of the people who ran this but never had any direct involvement myself. I believe it had multiple cameras to take views from different angles, which could then be triangulated by software to work out the actual clearance. Lasers couldn't be used because of the risk to people on platforms, and white light could only be used at night or in tunnels.

I believe they have now resolved the safety issue and measurement trains are now fitted laser scanners.

 

[Rescars]

An unusual feature of the signalling on the St Pancras Branch back in the Midland era was St. Pancras Tunnel Box, which was built into the wall of the tunnel 46 feet below St. Pancras station. This box was a block post with just four levers and two spares that shortened the signalling sections in the tunnel, so enabling a reduced headway between trains. This lonely and gloomy workplace was apparently accessed from a door set in the wall of the cab rank on the west side of St. Pancras station, behind which a spiral staircase led down to the tunnel and the box.