Mileages - What's Correct?

[03_179]

Morning all,

I've been double checking a few things on mileages.

First I wanted to check the Euston to Glasgow Miles.

Railmiles has it thus:

Distance:​

400mi 43ch

Route:​

London Euston, Camden South Jn, Camden Jn, Queens Park (London), Willesden T.M.D, Willesden West Londn Jn, Willesden North Junction, Harlesden Jn, Willesden Railnet Receptn, Wembley Yard South Jn., Willesden Sudbury Jn, Willesden Up & Down Relief, Wembley Central, North Wembley Jn, Harrow & Wealdstone, Bushey, Watford South Jcn, Watford Junction, Watford North Jn, Kings Langley, Apsley, Hemel Hempstead, Bourne End Jn (Herts), Berkhamsted, Tring, Tring North Jn, Cheddington, Ledburn Jn, Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley Drayton Road Jn, Bletchley Water Eaton Rd, Bletchley South Jn, Bletchley, Denbigh Hall South Jn, Denbigh Hall North Jn, Milton Keynes Central, Wolverton, Hanslope Jn, Roade, Blisworth Ground Frame, Weedon, Wilton Marina, Hillmorton Jn, Rugby South Junction, Rugby, Rugby North Junction, Rugby Trent Valley Jn, Newbold Junction, High Oaks Junction, Brinklow, Shilton, Attleborough South Jn, Attleborough North Jn, Nuneaton South Jn, Nuneaton, Ashby Junction, Canal Farm Junction, Atherstone, Polesworth, Amington Junction, Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley, Lichfield North Jn (Ll), Curborough Jn, Rugeley Trent Valley, Rugeley North Jn, Colwich, Milford And Brocton, Whitehouse Jn, Stafford Trent Valley Jn, Stafford South Jn, Stafford, Stafford North Jn, Stafford Doxey Junction, Little Bridgeford Jn, Searchlight Lane Jn, Whitmore, Madeley (Staffs), Betley Road Sb, Crewe Basford Hall Jn, Crewe Bas Hall S.S.S., Basford Hall Yard (Fl), Crewe Bas Hall S.S.N., Crewe Ssn Signal Box, Salop Goods Jn Sb., Crewe Coal Yard, Winsford, Hartford, Hartford Jn, Acton Bridge, Weaver Jn, Acton Grange Jn, Warrington Bank Quay, Dallam Junction, Winwick Jn, Golborne Jn, Haydock Branch Junction, Bamfurlong Jn, Springs Branch Jn, Wigan South Jn, Wigan Station Jn, Wigan North Western, Wigan Boars Head G.F., Balshaw Lane, Euxton Balshaw Lane, Euxton Jn, Leyland, Farington Jn, Farington Curve Jn, Skew Bridge, Ribble Jn, Preston South Junction, Preston, Preston Fylde Jn., Barton & Broughton, Garstang & Catteral, Bay Horse, Oubeck Goods Loop, Lancaster South Jn, Lancaster, Morecambe South Jn, Hest Bank, Carnforth North Jn, Milnthorpe, Oxenholme South Jn, Oxenholme Lake District, Lambrigg, Grayrigg, Lowgill, Tebay, Shap Summit, Shap Hardendale Quarry Jn, Shap Harrisons Sidings, Clifton & Lowther, Penrith South Jn, Penrith North Lakes, Long Ashes, Southwaite, Upperby Bridge Jn, Upperby Jn, Carlisle, Caldew Jn, Carlisle Kingmoor Jcn, Floriston, Mossband, Gretna Jn, Quintinshill Pass Loops, Kirkpatrick Signal Mc863, Kirtlebridge G.F., Ecclefechan, Lockerbie, Nthrclu, Wamphray G.F., Beattock, Beattock Summit, Elvanfoot, Abington, Symington G.F., Carstairs South Jn, Carstairs, Carstairs U.P.L., Lanark Jn, Carluke, Law Jn Down Passenger Loop, Law Jn, Shieldmuir Mail Terminal, Shieldmuir, Motherwell, Uddingston Jn, Uddingston, Newton East Jn, Newton West Jn, Cambuslang, Rutherglen East Jn, Rutherglen Central Jn, Rutherglen West Jn, Shawfield, Polmadie Car M.D., Polmadie Sig 779, Larkfield Jn, Eglinton St Jn, Glasgow Bridge Street Jn, Glasgow Central Gantry A, Glasgow Central

Miles And Chains books ( 1985 Milepost publications)
401mi 18ch


Same for Kings Cross to Edinburgh.

Distance:​

392mi 56ch

Route:​

London Kings Cross, Belle Isle, Copenhagen Junction, Holloway Sth. Jn., Finsbury Park, Harringay, Hornsey E.M.U.D., Alexandra Palace, New Southgate, Oakleigh Park, New Barnet, Hadley Wood, Potters Bar, Brookmans Park, Welham Green, Hatfield, Welwyn Garden City, Digswell Jn., Welwyn North, Woolmer Green Jn., Knebworth, Langley Jn, Stevenage, Hitchin, Arlesey, Biggleswade, Sandy, St Neots, Huntingdon, Conington South Jn, Holme Jn., Fletton Jn., Peterborough, New England Nth Jn., Werrington Jn, Helpston Jn., Tallington Jn., Stoke Jn., Highdyke Jn., Grantham, Nottingham Branch Jn, Barkston South Jn, Claypole Loop, Newark Northgate, Newark F.C., Carlton On Trent Loop, Retford, Babworth Loop, Retford Crossover, Ranskill Loop, Loversall Carr Jn, Black Carr Jn (Doncaster), Potteric Carr Jn., Decoy Nth Jn, Bridge Jn, Doncaster, Donc. Marshgate Jn., Arksey Loop, Shaftholme Jn, Joan Croft Jn, Temple Hirst Jn., Hambleton South Jn., Hambleton North Jn, Colton Jn, Colton North Jn, York Holgate Jcn, York Yard South Jn, Skelton Jn. (York), Skelton Bridge Jn., Tollerton Jn, Pilmoor Apco, Thirsk, Longlands Jn, Northallerton, East Cowton Xovers, Darlington South Jn., Darlington, Darlington North Jn., Aycliffe, Bradbury Apco, Ferryhill Sth. Jn., Tursdale Jn, Durham, Chester-le-Street, Birtley Jn, Low Fell Jn, King Edward Bridge S. Jn, King Edward Bridge N. Jn, Newcastle, Manors, Heaton Sth. Jn., Heaton T&R.S.M.D., Heaton North Jn, Benton Nth Jn, Cramlington, Morpeth, Morpeth North Jn, Pegswood, Butterwell Jn, Widdrington, Chevington Loop, Acklington, Wooden Gate Jn., Alnmouth, Little Mill Lc, Chathill Apco, Chathill, Belford L.C., Crag Mill Loop, Beal L.C., Tweedmouth S.B., Berwick-upon-Tweed, Reston Signal Eg403, Burnmouth, Reston, Grantshouse, Cockburnpath, Innerwick G.S.P., Oxwellmains Crossover, Dunbar, Stenton G.S.P., Drem, Longniddry Apco, Longniddry, Blindwells Opencast, Prestonpans, Wallyford, Monktonhall Jn, Musselburgh, Portobello Jn (Lothian), Craigentinny Jn, Abbeyhill Jn, Edinburgh

Miles And Chains books ( 1985 Milepost publications)
392mi 75ch


I know there isn't a lot in them but make me question which to rely on mostly.

Thoughts,

 

[Watershed]

Not sure about the Kings Cross to Edinburgh route, but RTT somehow takes the Euston to Glasgow route through the freight lines around the back of Crewe station. Perhaps that's causing the issue?

 

[Buzby]

Since the early 60’s, I have seen the distance between Glasgow and Euston claimed to be 401m and it has (to my knowledge) never deviated from this - the actual route was never disclosed and I assumed this avoided Birmingham. A staffer told me back then a good way to remember it was Carlisle, Warrington and Stafford were (roughly) the 100m boundaries, but I never actually checked it!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Always thought London Euston to Glasgow Central was 401 and a quarter miles. 'Railway Track Diagrams' (7th edition) however states it's 645.884 km, which is ballpark 401 and a third miles.

 

[louis97]

but RTT somehow takes the Euston to Glasgow route through the freight lines around the back of Crewe station. Perhaps that's causing the issue?

Also routed via Searchlight Lane Jun, which is shorter than via Norton Bridge (the route the fast lines and up slow takes).

 

[CyrusWuff]

For National Rail Timetable purposes (rounded to multiples of a quarter of a mile), Euston to Glasgow Central is given as 401.25 miles and Kings Cross to Edinburgh is given as 393 miles.

Looking at the relevant Sectional Appendices, on the other hand, Euston to Glasgow is 402 miles 9 chains and Kings Cross to Edinburgh is 393 miles 13 chains. So I'm not sure where the additional 3/4 of a mile for EUS - GLC comes from!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

A further look at Railway Track Diagrams (7th edition) (published in 2021) says it's some 632.793km from London Kings Cross to Edinburgh Waverley. That works out as 393 miles 16 chains. Looks like you pays your money and takes your choice! YMMV!

 

[03_179]

Not sure about the Kings Cross to Edinburgh route, but RTT somehow takes the Euston to Glasgow route through the freight lines around the back of Crewe station. Perhaps that's causing the issue?

Thanks I missed that.
I'll to a Railmiles EUS-DRE - CRE - GLC

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2026 ==

Not sure about the Kings Cross to Edinburgh route, but RTT somehow takes the Euston to Glasgow route through the freight lines around the back of Crewe station. Perhaps that's causing the issue?

For National Rail Timetable purposes (rounded to multiples of a quarter of a mile), Euston to Glasgow Central is given as 401.25 miles and Kings Cross to Edinburgh is given as 393 miles.

Looking at the relevant Sectional Appendices, on the other hand, Euston to Glasgow is 402 miles 9 chains and Kings Cross to Edinburgh is 393 miles 13 chains. So I'm not sure where the additional 3/4 of a mile for EUS - GLC comes from!

A further look at Railway Track Diagrams (7th edition) (published in 2021) says it's some 632.793km from London Kings Cross to Edinburgh Waverley. That works out as 393 miles 16 chains. Looks like you pays your money and takes your choice! YMMV!

So much inconsistency across different places.
I've usually always used my old Miles and Chains books by Geoffrey Hurst mostly and then done other checks against Rail Miles.

 

[A S Leib]

Signal.eu.org/osm gives Euston to Glasgow Central as 645.4 km / 401.12 miles and Kings Cross to Edinburgh as 631.8 km / 392.67 miles.

 

[03_179]

OK So a check on rail miles:
Euston to Crewe - 157mi 35ch

Miles and chains
158mi 05ch

Rail Miles
EUS - CRE - GLC = 400m 60ch

 

[Oxfordblues]

I remember when the Lawn at Paddington was extended and the buffer-stops moved-back about 50 feet someone at Swindon proposed moving all the quarter-mile posts from London to Penzance, Fishguard and Birkenhead by 50 feet. Fortunately they were overruled on cost grounds. An apocryphal story perhaps!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So, what's causing the apparent variances, as are mentioned upthread? Rounding errors? Measuring from buffer stops rather than mid-platform? Minor route variations? Something else?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There isn't actually a continuous run of mileages from Euston to Glasgow.
The mileage runs change at Golborne Jn (with the zero at Newton le Willows Jn on the L&M line), and at Preston, Lancaster and Carlisle stations.
The original (straight) line at Wolverton is 35 yards shorter than the later deviation through the current station.
The situation at Norton Bridge is the reverse, with the original (fast line) route now slightly longer than the new straighter down slow line alignment to the west.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Did the Selby diversion affect the traditional 393 miles on the ECML?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Did the Selby diversion affect the traditional 393 miles on the ECML?

The current route via Hambleton Jn is 27 chains further than the old route via Selby.
In any case the ECML is now measured in km - Waverley is 632.793 km from King's Cross.

 

[Pigeon]

There is certainly some bizarre stuff in the official data both horizontally and vertically.

This is Dainton as from railwaydata.co.uk. The blue line is the gradient profile as quoted by the site, with samples at regular x intervals. The red line is the gradient profile in "conventional" form with samples at irregular intervals corresponding to the actual changes of gradient, plotted from the "Gradient Change" entries in the tabulated line data also provided.

Both of them are up the creek. The blue plot has segments where the gradient slopes the wrong way. The red plot has those too but also has the horizontal distances going backwards in places. The errors mostly cancel each other out eventually - hence the two plots coming back together on the west side of Dainton - but it isn't long before another one comes along and throws it out again.

They do seem to be gradually improving the data; for instance the S&C has fewer weird discordances today than it did the last time I looked at it, but it still has some, and other routes such as the above have lots.

 

[Kite159]

OK So a check on rail miles:
Euston to Crewe - 157mi 35ch

Miles and chains
158mi 05ch

Rail Miles
EUS - CRE - GLC = 400m 60ch

Whereas RTT says 158 miles & 0 chains for a service from Euston to Crewe, such as https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W05564/2026-01-08/detailed#allox_id=0

 

[Snow1964]

I remember when the Lawn at Paddington was extended and the buffer-stops moved-back about 50 feet someone at Swindon proposed moving all the quarter-mile posts from London to Penzance, Fishguard and Birkenhead by 50 feet. Fortunately they were overruled on cost grounds. An apocryphal story perhaps!

Yes, should never assume buffer stops are at zero mileage

I think Waterloo zero is the former junction with Charing Cross lines other side of Waterloo Road, so buffers are few chains along from zero.

Similarly Euston was rebuilt in 1960s, the original layout had 4 tracks with a departure platform one side and an arrivals platform other. There were small wagon turntables linking the tracks at 90 degrees. These were only about 30 feet behind line through rear of portico. The current buffer stop line is in different place.

Link shows original layout at Euston

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Ground_Plan_of_Euston_Station%2C_1838.jpg

 

[Belperpete]

When considering such distances, you need to consider how it was measured, and with what accuracy. With one percent accuracy, for example, a distance quoted as 300 miles might be anything between 297 and 303 miles. How accurate are you expecting a distance that was probably originally measured using surveying chains to be? Personally, I would take any distance that hasn't been remeasured from scratch using modern digital methods as fairly nominal.

Even ordnance survey measurements aren't 100% accurate, and of course they are "as the crow flies" not line of route. I understand that very precise measurements have to be made when fitting ETCS balises, with separate measurements for each track, as the distances will differ around bends.

Back in the day, I had to measure some rather long lengths of railway by measuring wheel, when producing signalling scheme plans. We generally wheeled everything heading out, and then again heading back. We would then spend a day or more trying to iron out all the discrepancies. The first thing I learnt was never to trust the mileposts, some of which were significantly out of place.

 

[03_179]

Using the Brouter tool online

BRouter web client

It give Kings Cross to Edinburgh as 632.4km (392.95m)

BRouter web client

< The Brouter routing

 

[louis97]

Whereas RTT says 158 miles & 0 chains for a service from Euston to Crewe, such as https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W05564/2026-01-08/detailed#allox_id=0

This is correct as per the Sectional Appendix for the route via Weedon and Norton Bridge. The OP seems to have unticked (or not ticked) the tick box for using the mileage algorithm as journey searching on Railmiles. This has resulted in the route being given via various depots and goods line in the Willesden area. (Which has resulted in a reduced mileage due to how the data is setup, note that the data for depots is patchy).

If you run Euston to Crewe with the ticked box ticked, it will match what RTT says.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Back in the day, I had to measure some rather long lengths of railway by measuring wheel, when producing signalling scheme plans. We generally wheeled everything heading out, and then again heading back. We would then spend a day or more trying to iron out all the discrepancies. The first thing I learnt was never to trust the mileposts, some of which were significantly out of place.

I was surprised to discover, using Google Maps, that the straight-line distance from Euston to Glasgow Central was 343 miles.
I found it hard to believe that there is 58 miles of indirection in the WCML route, but it's true.
The shortest route passes near to Leicester, Rochdale and Dumfries.

The ECML is no different, with a direct King's Cross-Edinburgh Waverley mileage of 330 miles, 63 miles shorter than the rail route.
The direct route goes near Bedford, Nottingham, Sheffield, Ilkley, Haltwhistle and Selkirk.

Flying will tend to follow these direct routes, although it gets complicated at each end with the differing approaches to airports (mostly aligned east-west).

 

[A S Leib]

I was surprised to discover, using Google Maps, that the straight-line distance from Euston to Glasgow Central was 343 miles.
I found it hard to believe that there is 58 miles of indirection in the WCML route, but it's true.
The shortest route passes near to Leicester, Rochdale and Dumfries.

The ECML is no different, with a direct King's Cross-Edinburgh Waverley mileage of 330 miles, 63 miles shorter than the rail route.
The direct route goes near Bedford, Nottingham, Sheffield, Ilkley, Haltwhistle and Selkirk.

Flying will tend to follow these direct routes, although it gets complicated at each end with the differing approaches to airports (mostly aligned east-west).

For comparison's sake, Google Maps recommends 403 miles by road for Euston to Glasgow Central, and 401 miles by road for Kings Cross to Edinburgh Waverley (with the quickest road route not necessarily having the shortest mileage).

 

[QueensCurve]

Thanks I missed that.
I'll to a Railmiles EUS-DRE - CRE - GLC

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2026 ==

Euston to Drem?

 

[03_179]

Crewe. Finger slip

 

[D6975]

Long distance journeys via York on Railmiles take the shortest rioute, i.e. round the freight lines avoiding York station. You have to put your journey in as two seperate journeys, breaking at York to get the via the station mileage.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jan 2026 ==

I remember when the Lawn at Paddington was extended and the buffer-stops moved-back about 50 feet someone at Swindon proposed moving all the quarter-mile posts from London to Penzance, Fishguard and Birkenhead by 50 feet. Fortunately they were overruled on cost grounds. An apocryphal story perhaps!

Paddington is something of an oddball as the zero milepost has never ever been at the bufferstops. When the GWR was building the line, mileposts were measured from the intended bufferstops, but the station was repositioned before being built due to the Paddington NIMBYS. The result of this being that the route into London never reached zero.

 

[zwk500]

Railway Codes has Euston buffers at -3 chains http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/elrs/_mileages/l/lec1.shtm

Worth noting that some places have 'short miles' without resetting the ELR like Wolverton (current line 2 chains longer than original) which can also distort the result alongside issues like that at Norton Bridge with significant deviation of the lines.

 

[edwin_m]

According to Quail maps:

• There is 15 chains "missing" between Stoke and Kidsgrove due to the Harecastle Tunnel diversion in the 1960s. Seems the closed route has its own Engineers' Line Reference CDM3.
• 8.5 chains are missing at Newton Hall north of Durham where the ECML was realigned - not sure when. There is no change of ELR
• I can't see any change of mileage for the Penmanshiel diversion

 

[zwk500]

According to Quail maps:

• There is 15 chains "missing" between Stoke and Kidsgrove due to the Harecastle Tunnel diversion in the 1960s. Seems the closed route has its own Engineers' Line Reference CDM3.
• 8.5 chains are missing at Newton Hall north of Durham where the ECML was realigned - not sure when. There is no change of ELR
• I can't see any change of mileage for the Penmanshiel diversion

There is also a short mile between Lewes and Southerham Jn, which might be reported as a change of ELR but IIRC is not listed in the Sectional Appendix.

I think the short miles around Southampton do trigger ELR/COM changes