Freedom Pass to become buses only?

[Mawkie]

When would any changes be likely to be implemented? I’m eligible for my 60+ Oyster later this year.

This thread is nothing to do with the 60+ Oyster.

 

[aron2smith]

I did the N109 from Central London to Purley once. Never again...

Every so often I have to use the N279 to the end of the line, Waltham Cross and then walk the last 2 miles, makes for a long night! But the walk is OK after 80+ minutes on the bus.

Weirdly even the night buses are quite a bit slower than the Greenline routes were.

In my 70s timetable, showed Victoria to Croydon for example, being possible in 42 minutes on route 708! Purley taking just another 14 minutes from Croydon!
Oxford Circus to Waltham Cross taking exactly an hour on route 715! These were daytime journey times, even in rush hour!!

It's good that road safety is taken more seriously now but buses should not have been allowed to get so much slower just 50 years later. Part of why TFL spends so much on buses.

But if anyone is serious about making freedom passes bus only, these limited stop routes with the above journey times are what are needed again. For buses, anything slower than an hour from Central London to the fringe/ suburban areas mean trains beat buses every time.

 

[londonbridge]

This thread is nothing to do with the 60+ Oyster.

Right, just clarifying, so the 60+ Oyster is not under threat from any potential changes then?

 

[cool110]

Right, just clarifying, so the 60+ Oyster is not under threat from any potential changes then?

Not directly, any changes to that are a decision for TfL to make themselves rather than the councils.

 

[Starmill]

Last theatre in Croydon closed about ten years ago; a couple of nasty multiplex cinemas, a few indifferent pubs. Why would I want to have a night out in Croydon when central London offers so much more?
CL

This is such an entitled attitude. If you don't like Croydon Borough, as you do so disparage it here, then why on earth do you live there? Perhaps move closer in if you don't like it? The fact that you may well not be able to afford to live on the zone 1/2 border does not qualify you for special pleading over other Londoners.

I like to go to central London sometimes too, but I have to pay to do so and will continue to have to when I reach 60. I'm paying just as much council tax in Manchester as Croydon - not that council tax has anything to do with it. But you already know that, and you're just annoyed about you possibly (very unlikely) being inconvenienced aren't you...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jan 2026 ==

Right, just clarifying, so the 60+ Oyster is not under threat from any potential changes then?

At present no. But do you really think it's sustainable long-term to keep giving free rail travel at 60 while the qualifying age for state pension continues to rise further and further? I'd say long term this is by far the biggest issue with funding for concessions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jan 2026 ==

I did the N109 from Central London to Purley once. Never again...

Surely most people would have stayed at a hotel or ordered a taxi if they found such a journey unpalatable?

 

[Jimini]

This is such an entitled attitude. If you don't like Croydon Borough, as you do so disparage it here, then why on earth do you live there? Perhaps move closer in if you don't like it? The fact that you may well not be able to afford to live on the zone 1/2 border does not qualify you for special pleading over other Londoners.

I like to go to central London sometimes too, but I have to pay to do so and will continue to have to when I reach 60. I'm paying just as much council tax in Manchester as Croydon - not that council tax has anything to do with it. But you already know that, and you're just annoyed about you possibly (very unlikely) being inconvenienced aren't you...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jan 2026 ==


At present no. But do you really think it's sustainable long-term to keep giving free rail travel at 60 while the qualifying age for state pension continues to rise further and further? I'd say long term this is by far the biggest issue with funding for concessions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jan 2026 ==


Surely most people would have stayed at a hotel or ordered a taxi if they found such a journey unpalatable?

I can't speak on @Shimbleshanks' behalf, but I must be one of many people over the years who have done the night bus back to south London, back when I was a younger man (the N44 from the West End to Sutton, for me). That was a loooong night.

 

[Starmill]

I can't speak on @Shimbleshanks' behalf, but I must be one of many people over the years who have done the night bus back to south London, back when I was a younger man (the N44 from the West End to Sutton, for me). That was a loooong night.

I don't think anyone is suggesting it isn't a long, slow potentially somewhat uncomfortable journey. But it is fair that it is provided in the form that it is, and if you find it not to your liking, it is fair to suggest that you should pay for a hotel room.

 

[Chrius56000]

. . .I would have been glad of a long night journey home by bus as an alternative to a hotel room which would have been at least twenty to fifty times the bus fare (as a minimum!), and certainly far preferable to walking it!

 

[plugwash]

Right, just clarifying, so the 60+ Oyster is not under threat from any potential changes then?

Not directly, in that the body that controls the 60+ oyster is not the same body that has proposed reducing the validity of the freedom pass.

But I can't see "free train/tube/tram travel for londoners 60-65 but not for those 66+" being a politically sustainable position.

 

[cool110]

But I can't see "free train/tube/tram travel for londoners 60-65 but not for those 66+" being a politically sustainable position.

Don't forget that there's an application and annual fee for those between 60-65, so they could apply that as a supplement to upgrade the freedom pass validity as TfGM already do.

 

[Snow1964]

But I can't see "free train/tube/tram travel for londoners 60-65 but not for those 66+" being a politically sustainable position.

Rather depends on presentation or PR spin

If it is advertised as Freedom passes will soon be changing due to rise in pension age from 66 to 67 and will be standardising the terms consistent with the English National Concessionary pensioners bus pass, and will be allowed to use it anywhere in England, then not going to be too much fuss.

But if pitch it as taking away free tube journeys then bound to be uproar.

 

[Haywain]

If it is advertised as Freedom passes will soon be changing due to rise in pension age from 66 to 67 and will be standardising the terms consistent with the English National Concessionary pensioners bus pass, and will be allowed to use it anywhere in England, then not going to be too much fuss.

Won't be too much fuss? Why, because nothing else is being changed?

 

[Falcon1200]

And no, they didn't "pay in for it when they were at work" they paid for the previous generation of pensioners concessions

That rather ignores the fact that today's pensioners spent 40 years at work, paying for those who were pensioners then, only now to apparently be denied concessions.

 

[plugwash]

But if pitch it as taking away free tube journeys then bound to be uproar.

People in the press work in london and have parents and grandparents, even if the politicians try to spin it I doubt they will be able to keep the reality from being splashed all over the papers.

 

[John R]

That rather ignores the fact that today's pensioners spent 40 years at work, paying for those who were pensioners then, only now to apparently be denied concessions.

However there has been a massive change in the age profile of the population since then, most notably the huge increase in the older age groups. Thus those currently at working (and thus tax paying) age are bearing a huge extra cost paying for the pensions, health and social care costs of the older generation, to a point where it is unsustainable.

The most obvious consequence of this is the rising state pension age, but the impact on the NHS, where demand is rising inexorably, and on the social care bill, which is paid for by local authorities, hence why so many are in trouble, are themselves huge in terms of state funding.

Do I have a vested right interest here! No, I’m just the wrong side of my State Pension age being 67. (If I was born 18 months earlier it would have been 66.) But I fully support the increase even though it will cost me thousands as it is the right policy decision to take. The triple lock, which by its mechanism is increasing the state pension faster than both prices and earnings over time is another policy which is costing taxpayers a huge amount, and should be replaced by something more sensible not least for reasons of intergenerational equity.

 

[31160]

That rather ignores the fact that today's pensioners spent 40 years at work, paying for those who were pensioners then, only now to apparently be denied concessions.

Hmm yeah, but you try having the same conversation with someone in their mid 20s that will probably have no steady job as job for life doesn't really exist anymore so no private pension to fall back on, and by the time they reach pension age, although God knows what that will be by then, that they have to pay more tax on their minimum wage job because someone that doesn't work at all wants a expensive perk because they think the bus is too slow to enjoy a jolly up London way and see how far that goes

 

[Joe Paxton]

Not directly, in that the body that controls the 60+ oyster is not the same body that has proposed reducing the validity of the freedom pass.

But I can't see "free train/tube/tram travel for londoners 60-65 but not for those 66+" being a politically sustainable position.

Rather depends on presentation or PR spin

If it is advertised as Freedom passes will soon be changing due to rise in pension age from 66 to 67 and will be standardising the terms consistent with the English National Concessionary pensioners bus pass, and will be allowed to use it anywhere in England, then not going to be too much fuss.

But if pitch it as taking away free tube journeys then bound to be uproar.

Just want to prefix my comment by saying that I'm open to thoughts regarding some sort of reform of both these concessionary passes (though I'd say the 60+ Oyster card is the more low-hanging fruit here - but of course it's provided for and funded by a very different mechanism than the Freedom Pass, even if the outcome for the user is very similar...).

But the idea that such a change would simply be accepted meekly, quietly and without furious backlash if only it were to presented in a particular manner is for the birds!

(Also, your middle sentence reads a little confused - the London Freedom Pass for older people is very much already valid for use elsewhere on buses in England as it functions as an ENCTS pass, as it has done since the ENCTS scheme started in 2008.).

 

[Harratt4]

That rather ignores the fact that today's pensioners spent 40 years at work, paying for those who were pensioners then, only now to apparently be denied concessions.

Whilst doing precisely sweet FA to avoid ending up in this situation…

As they say: CHOICES ‍♂️

 

[side effect]

I have a 60+ oyster that im very grateful for. I use it to travel to my daughters house to help her with kids down 2 flights of stairs as one is disable. Tue wed & thur. I pay going there as its before 8 57 and travel home free. If i lose it I will stay over those nights which ive already trialed.

Son wants me to move to inverness with him so im waiting hoping my daughter gets a ground floor flat then I can sell my flat and hopefully enjoy train spotting in the Cairngorns. Just sitting by a railway track esp that pic where the coach stops and theres a hst 7 in the pic also.

Im just very grateful for the card as im on esa atm.

Have a nice Saturday everyone

 

[RT4038]

Whilst doing precisely sweet FA to avoid ending up in this situation…

As they say: CHOICES ‍♂️

And quite what were you expecting to be done to avoid ending up in this situation? Compulsory Euthanasia to get the average life expectancy down, and reduce Social Care costs?

 

[Deerfold]

Just want to prefix my comment by saying that I'm open to thoughts regarding some sort of reform of both these concessionary passes (though I'd say the 60+ Oyster card is the more low-hanging fruit here - but of course it's provided for and funded by a very different mechanism than the Freedom Pass, even if the outcome for the user is very similar...).

But the idea that such a change would simply be accepted meekly, quietly and without furious backlash if only it were to presented in a particular manner is for the birds!

(Also, your middle sentence reads a little confused - the London Freedom Pass for older people is very much already valid for use elsewhere on buses in England as it functions as an ENCTS pass, as it has done since the ENCTS scheme started in 2008.).

The 60+ card is not an ENCTS card and it's not valid outside London.
Technically it's not even valid on non-TfL bus services within London.
You may find drivers accept it, but I wouldn't recommend it.

The terms and conditions are here.
Section 1 6 of the 60+ photocard

Transport for London

photocard.tfl.gov.uk

6. The Scheme allows holders of a 60+ London Oyster photocard to travel free of charge on TfL bus,
Tube, tram, Docklands Light Railway (DLR), London Overground and Elizabeth line (excluding
between West Drayton and Reading) after 09:00 Monday to Friday and any time on weekends and
public holidays.
60+ London Oyster photocard holders can also travel free of charge on most National Rail services in
Greater London after 09:30 Monday to-Friday and any time on weekends and public holidays.
Discounted fares for River Services and the Emirates Air Line are also available for 60+ London Oyster
photocard holders.
7. The 60+ London Oyster photocard is not valid on:
• Virgin Trains;
• London Midland and Southern services between Harrow & Wealdstone and Watford Junction
• ScotRail services;
• Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted Express services; or
• Southeastern high speed services.

 

[Starmill]

That rather ignores the fact that today's pensioners spent 40 years at work, paying for those who were pensioners then, only now to apparently be denied concessions.

So what? If they'd spent 40 years paying a more realistic proportion in tax, we may not have such a high debt to GDP ratio today. Unfortunately they didn't, and we do. Governments must balance these issues, we don't get out what we put in equally by definition.

 

[Stephen42]

The 60+ card is not an ENCTS card and it's not valid outside London.
Technically it's not even valid on non-TfL bus services within London.
You may find drivers accept it, but I wouldn't recommend it.

The terms and conditions are here.
Section 1 6 of the 60+ photocard

Transport for London

photocard.tfl.gov.uk

In London the situation is quite complicated. There are three types of concession passes, the 60+ card which is a discretionary TfL scheme which TfL fund and the freedom passes which London Councils fund for pension age. TfL historically funded some travel for bits not covered in the agreement with London Councils.

The freedom pass which London Councils fund are an ENCTS card and can be used anywhere as the eligibility criteria is the same as for an ENCTS card elsewhere. The 60+ card is as you say not an ENCTS card, even if TfL wanted to they would struggle to allow travel on buses outside London as they'd need to agree with every bus operator or council a funding mechanism. (ENCTS works on the basis where the card is used is who pays regardless where the cardholder resides for buses).

There are two types of freedom pass, older persons and disabled freedom pass. The former having more restrictions on time of use compared to the disabled version.

While the freedom pass is being discussed by London Councils, any changes are likely to be made to the 60+ card to avoid a temporary increase in validity that gets withdrawn at hitting pension age. TfL would gain the benefit of any such reduction with the freedom pass change being revenue neutral.

 

[urbophile]

Rather depends on presentation or PR spin

If it is advertised as Freedom passes will soon be changing due to rise in pension age from 66 to 67 and will be standardising the terms consistent with the English National Concessionary pensioners bus pass, and will be allowed to use it anywhere in England, then not going to be too much fuss.

But if pitch it as taking away free tube journeys then bound to be uproar.

They are already allowed to use it anywhere in England (on buses) aren't they?

 

[aron2smith]

This is such an entitled attitude. If you don't like Croydon Borough, as you do so disparage it here, then why on earth do you live there? Perhaps move closer in if you don't like it? The fact that you may well not be able to afford to live on the zone 1/2 border does not qualify you for special pleading over other Londoners.

I like to go to central London sometimes too, but I have to pay to do so and will continue to have to when I reach 60. I'm paying just as much council tax in Manchester as Croydon - not that council tax has anything to do with it. But you already know that, and you're just annoyed about you possibly (very unlikely) being inconvenienced aren't you...

Unfortunately a lot of people are stuck living where they are because of the cost of housing. I'd be in London proper if rent wasn't such a rip off, rather than looking in from the fringes. Easy to call people entitled but after 15 years of austerity, services just aren't good enough and if people aren't living where they want to be, that adds a lot to these issues. A bit like how I want to be in the Outer City, the OP may want to live in the Inner City as it would better suit their needs but the cost makes it prohibitive. I personally think London is hollowing out precisely because of this, would explain the fall in bus ridership but is detrimental in many other ways too.

Things aren't exactly great for many in and around London right now, so another cut to something would wind people up.

And if someone would only go somewhere and spend in the economy because they get free travel, that's surely the point of it! GM is removing concession time restrictions soon, they wouldn't fund it if they didn't see some benefit to doing so.

 

[RT4038]

we may not have such a high debt to GDP ratio today.

Is the high debt to GDP ratio today not more to do with perturbation in the American mortgage market in 2008 and the costs of COVID, than not paying a realistic proportion of tax for 40 years?

 

[Starmill]

Unfortunately a lot of people are stuck living where they are because of the cost of housing. I'd be in London proper if rent wasn't such a rip off, rather than looking in from the fringes. Easy to call people entitled but after 15 years of austerity, services just aren't good enough and if people aren't living where they want to be, that adds a lot to these issues. A bit like how I want to be in the Outer City, the OP may want to live in the Inner City as it would better suit their needs but the cost makes it prohibitive. I personally think London is hollowing out precisely because of this, would explain the fall in bus ridership but is detrimental in many other ways too.

Things aren't exactly great for many in and around London right now, so another cut to something would wind people up.

And if someone would only go somewhere and spend in the economy because they get free travel, that's surely the point of it! GM is removing concession time restrictions soon, they wouldn't fund it if they didn't see some benefit to doing so.

I don't disagree with any of that, but those issues are largely non transport related. I was calling the "but my council tax!" argument entitled, same as the "but my high street is a dump!" one. I've lived by some very scabby high streets in my time but I've always made an effort to still go to them and buy things from them, rather than only complaining and going to another one nearby.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jan 2026 ==

Is the high debt to GDP ratio today not more to do with perturbation in the American mortgage market in 2008 and the costs of COVID, than not paying a realistic proportion of tax for 40 years?

Unfortunately the British mortgage and bond markets, as well as select banks, were doing barely any better at the time than their US counterparts.

 

[michael8]

Free travel taxpayer-funded travel for older Londoners could be cut back​

 

[JonathanH]

Is the high debt to GDP ratio today not more to do with perturbation in the American mortgage market in 2008 and the costs of COVID, than not paying a realistic proportion of tax for 40 years?

Those are both problems of not having a contingency to pay for challenging circumstances, and indeed the country spending money outside its means, which can also be described as not having collected enough tax receipts for future needs.

 

[Failed Unit]

I must admit I haven’t read every post on this thread, but something needed to change.

I work with someone over 60, he is on a significant salary. He is using his freedom pass to get commute to work from one of the outer london zones. I suspect this is the kind of use that TfL were wanting to cut down on. He in the end refused meetings before 1000 for he didn’t have to pay. The company suggested be retired with some incentives. But considering the cost a travel card from Zone 6 - he saved a significant sum of money of the period of time he could take advantage of it.

Granted we could then take this down the means tested route, but that is a whole different thread. On the national rail services in may area it isn’t really taking seats away from others.