Anytime ticket not valid at 14:02 St Pancras–Leeds?

[Smylers]

Why would there be a train in the middle of a Sunday where any Anytime ticket isn't valid?

Searching for St Pancras–Leeds on February 22nd, there are journeys with a change at Sheffield starting at :02 past most hours. There's an Anytime Single for £160·60, which is valid on the 12:02, 13:02, 15:02, 16:02, and 17:02 — but not the 14:02. Why not? The conditions say “valid at any time of day”.



There's also a Super Off-Peak Single for £73·40, valid on exactly the same trains. Its conditions say it's valid on the journeys listed in online journey planners, so while it's bizarre to omit one train in the middle, there isn't actually a contradiction there like there is with the Anytime ticket.

The only fare available for that journey seems to be a 1st Class single at £287. Does the 14:02 only have 1st-class carriages‽

Thank you.

 

[JonathanH]

Why would there be a train in the middle of a Sunday where any Anytime ticket isn't valid?

Trains marked as reservations compulsory with no quota available.

The anytime ticket (and off-peak ones) are valid on it, but the lack of a quota means that the ticket can't be sold on a journey planner interface against that train.

 

[Angmering1974]

22nd being the last day of the half term too might explain the lack of quota?

 

[JonathanH]

22nd being the last day of the half term too might explain the lack of quota?

Kings Cross only running trains to Potters Bar that day as well. LNER terminating at Peterborough from the north with buses to Bedford.

 

[TUC]

Trains marked as reservations compulsory with no quota available.

The anytime ticket (and off-peak ones) are valid on it, but the lack of a quota means that the ticket can't be sold on a journey planner interface against that train.

Still incorrect to say the ticket is not valid. That is a completely different issue to no quota being available.

 

[JonathanH]

Still incorrect to say the ticket is not valid. That is a completely different issue to no quota being available.

Is that simply because the journey planner interface hasn't caught up with the way that the train operating companies are now using the reservation system?

 

[Smylers]

Trains marked as reservations compulsory with no quota available.

The anytime ticket (and off-peak ones) are valid on it

Sorry, I'm still confused: Your first sentence makes it sound like it's compulsory to have a reservation on that train, as in passengers aren't allowed to travel without one. Your second one says the ticket is still valid on it — which would suggest that reservations aren't actually compulsory.

The National Rail website phrases it differently, saying there aren't any valid fares for that journey:

 

[Kite159]

The ticket is valid on that train, but you won't get a seat reservation* as it's 'fully booked' (but nothing stopping you from getting a seat in coach D, although beware on days the ECML is closed there is usually a queuing system at the annex platforms of the shopping centre (aka St Pancras).

(*assuming EMR are doing seat reservations and not just counted place)

 

[Watershed]

Sorry, I'm still confused: Your first sentence makes it sound like it's compulsory to have a reservation on that train, as in passengers aren't allowed to travel without one. Your second one says the ticket is still valid on it — which would suggest that reservations aren't actually compulsory.

The National Rail website phrases it differently, saying there aren't any valid fares for that journey:

View attachment 195528

In the industry timetable data for that day, EMR have marked their London trains as "reservations compulsory". This means that journey planners can only offer a ticket for those trains if they are able to obtain a seat reservation through the industry reservations system (RARS).

But in practice you can board the train without a reservation. There are usually a few unreserveable seats, and many people end up travelling on a different train than they reserved. Worst case scenario, you end up standing.

Therefore, the marking of such trains as "reservations compulsory" is misleading because, in practice, you will not be denied travel. But it's sadly far from the first time this has happened, and it won't be the last.

DIfferent journey planners handle the lack of reservation availability in different ways. Some, like NRE, say they can't find fares. That's a rather generic error which would also be stated in other scenarios, such as the journey following a non-permitted route. Others say "fully booked" which also isn't quite right because that concept doesn't really exist in Britain for daytime trains.

Unfortunately there isn't any way that a journey planner can find out the reason why reservations are unavailable, so it's hard to give a description that is accurate in all cases. It could be because the train is actually fully reserved - but in many cases it's just that you are looking too far into the future, or reservations are being held back because of expected timetable changes, or because of a technical problem with the way it has been configured in RARS...

 

[TUC]

Whereas LNER is showing tickets/seats as available.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Whereas LNER is showing tickets/seats as available.

Trainsplit is also retailing it.
Maybe more reservations have been made avaliable.

Edit: Nevermind, I had the wrong month!

 

[Deerfold]

Whereas LNER is showing tickets/seats as available.

That's the First Class fare that the OP mentioned in their first posr.

 

[TUC]

That's the First Class fare that the OP mentioned in their first posr.

That's interesting in itself. Looking again, you're right, it is but, unless the purchaser looks at the small print, it is far from apparent. It is the only fare displayed. The unwary could buy a first class ticket without realising it. There is nothing to show 'Standard Class ticket unavailable'.

 

[Smylers]

In the industry timetable data for that day, EMR have marked their London trains as "reservations compulsory". This means that ... <Snip>

Thank you for the thorough explanation. That's appreciated.

(*assuming EMR are doing seat reservations and not just counted place)

I couldn't find an actual seat reservation for any train on that route. Even one on a Sunday in March which has Advance tickets for £25, and for which therefore presumably has not yet had many tickets sold, only offered one of those ‘must be this train, but no particular seat’ non-reservation reservations.

So quite possibly somebody buying any Anytime ticket without a reservation and boarding the 14:02 on that busy Sunday has in practice as much chance of getting a seat as somebody who booked very early and has been allocated that train? Given it's still over 6 weeks away, there's going to be a lot of people yet to book their travel for that day — and yet to discover the East Coast Mainline closure, who will end up trying to cram on to trains from St Pancras.

If we reach a point where the system deems all the trains from St Pancras to have got full, will it then no longer be possible to buy an Anytime ticket for that day at all?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

If we reach a point where the system deems all the trains from St Pancras to have got full, will it then no longer be possible to buy an Anytime ticket for that day at all?

Yes, except for in person, since currently no online retailers allow you to just buy a ticket.
A ticket office would be able to sell it without issue.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Yes, except for in person, since currently no online retailers allow you to just buy a ticket.

Retailers that still use Worldline WebTIS (GWR, Lumo, SWR and RedSpottedHanky, plus Rail Staff Travel Online for those who have access) can sell walk up tickets without an associated itinerary, though that's only available on their Desktop sites and not the Mobile version, nor through apps.

I believe it's been mentioned here that On Track Retail (GTR, Southeastern and TPE) can also do so if you've got it saved as a favourite journey.

 

[Watershed]

I believe it's been mentioned here that On Track Retail (GTR, Southeastern and TPE) can also do so if you've got it saved as a favourite journey.

Of if it's a ticket you've recently bought whilst being logged in. Then it appears below the search "widget" with an option to buy it again.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Yes, except for in person, since currently no online retailers allow you to just buy a ticket.

I don't believe there's any complulsion to show an itinerary when travelling. So you just buy a ticket, provided it's not an "Advance" for any train that the retailer will sell at off peak prices.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I don't believe there's any complulsion to show an itinerary when travelling. So you just buy a ticket, provided it's not an "Advance" for any train that the retailer will sell at off peak prices.

Correct, but if every eligible service on that day is mandatory reservations, you wouldn't be able to get the ticket on conjunction with an itinerary.

 

[35B]

Thank you for the thorough explanation. That's appreciated.


I couldn't find an actual seat reservation for any train on that route. Even one on a Sunday in March which has Advance tickets for £25, and for which therefore presumably has not yet had many tickets sold, only offered one of those ‘must be this train, but no particular seat’ non-reservation reservations.

So quite possibly somebody buying any Anytime ticket without a reservation and boarding the 14:02 on that busy Sunday has in practice as much chance of getting a seat as somebody who booked very early and has been allocated that train? Given it's still over 6 weeks away, there's going to be a lot of people yet to book their travel for that day — and yet to discover the East Coast Mainline closure, who will end up trying to cram on to trains from St Pancras.

If we reach a point where the system deems all the trains from St Pancras to have got full, will it then no longer be possible to buy an Anytime ticket for that day at all?

I'm travelling the previous Sunday, and the picture is complicated by EMR running many trains on a counted place basis, because they are not making any seat reservations while they work out which will be 222s and which 810s.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Correct, but if every eligible service on that day is mandatory reservations, you wouldn't be able to get the ticket on conjunction with an itinerary.

The original poster raised the question because one of the trains on an hourly service was flagged as unavailable in a search for Anytime tickets. The way to get around this is to notionally book either the train before or the train after.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The original poster raised the question because one of the trains on an hourly service was flagged as unavailable in a search for Anytime tickets. The way to get around this is to notionally book either the train before or the train after.

And I was replying to this query:

If we reach a point where the system deems all the trains from St Pancras to have got full, will it then no longer be possible to buy an Anytime ticket for that day at all?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Just rock up to one of EMR's TVM and purchase the ticket , they don't do journey planning or offer reservations