Itinerary flexibility edge cases with Advance tickets

[agk2126]

National Rail Conditions of Travel are quite clear about passengers' rights and responsibilities in certain situations or travel disruptions, but far from all.

Some recent experiences made me wonder about policies, in theory and in practice, under a number of example scenarios:

(1) Advance Single from Bicester North to London Marylebone. A major disruption stops all Chiltern services into London, and I'm stuck at High Wycombe with no trains to London in the foreseeable future. I decide to abandon my journey and return to Bicester, but the only options are to Bicester Village.

(2) Advance Single on GWR from Oxford to Paddington. Train is severely delayed and I need to take a Zoom call from reliable wifi (i.e. off the train). I want to break my journey at Slough or Reading, use a nearby café, and resume travel afterwards.

(3) Self-created split tickets (two Advance Singles) between Oxford and Swansea (connecting in Reading). The first is Oxford to Paddington, the second Reading to Swansea. Let's say GWR revenue protection staff are inspecting tickets on the Reading platform (it's happened to me!) and they literally see me hop off the Oxford to London train (assume it's operating on time) when the doors open at Reading. In this situation I would of course hold a valid ticket originating in Reading (permitting me to be in the station) but would, if asked, need to produce a ticket valid for the previous train. Advance Singles don't allow a break of journey. So the act of getting off the first train is prohibited, even though my presence on both that train and the platform are authorised.

(4) A bus substitution is introduced from Guildford to Gatwick Airport and I have a split itinerary in mind from Reading to Redhill (Advance Single) to Gatwick Airport (planning on using contactless at Redhill, but no ticket yet). Barriers won't let me exit at Guildford, and I have no ticket entitling me to board the bus.

I would guess the majority of revenue protection or station staff, after hearing an explanation, would allow me to travel in the four above scenarios. However, it's not clear to me whether that is judgment and reason, or policy. Do you know of any discussion about formalising these types of scenarios into the NRCoT or equivalent?

 

[Benjwri]

Self-created split tickets (two Advance Singles) between Oxford and Swansea (connecting in Reading). The first is Oxford to Paddington, the second Reading to Swansea. Let's say GWR revenue protection staff are inspecting tickets on the Reading platform (it's happened to me!) and they literally see me hop off the Oxford to London train (assume it's operating on time) when the doors open at Reading. In this situation I would of course hold a valid ticket originating in Reading (permitting me to be in the station) but would, if asked, need to produce a ticket valid for the previous train. Advance Singles don't allow a break of journey. So the act of getting off the first train is prohibited, even though my presence on both that train and the platform are authorised.

This one is fairly simple, the break of journey is not permitted and you cannot end your journey short, in reality you would be unlikely to be penalised, and internal policy is to allow it if it's not to take advantage of a cheaper fare, but the RPI would be in their right to penalise you for it.

 

[agk2126]

This one is fairly simple, the break of journey is not permitted and you cannot end your journey short, in reality you would be unlikely to be penalised, and internal policy is to allow it if it's not to take advantage of a cheaper fare, but the RPI would be in their right to penalise you for it.

Yes, if I simply hopped off early short of my ticketed destination, while holding an Advance Single with no break of journey permitted, you are absolutely right. In that simpler situation I would hold no ticket permitting me to be on the platform at all, and could be penalised for it.

The nuance in my scenario is that once I got off the first train, as soon as my feet touched the platform I would immediately hold a (different) valid ticket entitling me to be on the platform. The act of stepping through an open door from the train to the platform would not be allowed, even if I were fully permitted to be (a) on the train and (b) on the platform, if that makes sense.

 

[Benjwri]

The nuance in my scenario is that once I got off the first train, as soon as my feet touched the platform I would immediately hold a (different) valid ticket entitling me to be on the platform. The act of stepping through an open door from the train to the platform would not be allowed, even if I were fully permitted to be (a) on the train and (b) on the platform, if that makes sense.

My reading would be that by departing that service at Reading you have made a journey from Oxford to Reading. Your ticket technically was not valid for this journey and therefore you could be penalised.

 

[Kilopylae]

My inexpert two pence, all just for fun.

(1) Advance Single from Bicester North to London Marylebone. A major disruption stops all Chiltern services into London, and I'm stuck at High Wycombe with no trains to London in the foreseeable future. I decide to abandon my journey and return to Bicester, but the only options are to Bicester Village.

You have a right to be conveyed to Bicester North by one means or another (this assumes that 28.2 covers a return to your origin made under 30.1: I would say that it does). However, it is up to Chiltern how they wish to do this.

For example, we can imagine a very silly situation where Chiltern insists on booking you a taxi to Bicester North: I think you would have no choice here but to accept the taxi. You couldn't, as of right, insist on taking the train to Bicester Village instead.

In practice, Chiltern would surely leap at the chance to use the available service to Bicester Village to acquit themselves of their obligations under 28.2! Perhaps the real question is whether, if you demanded it, they would also be obligated to offer you a taxi (or bus ticket) from Bicester Village up to Bicester North. Good luck swinging that, however.

(2) Advance Single on GWR from Oxford to Paddington. Train is severely delayed and I need to take a Zoom call from reliable wifi (i.e. off the train). I want to break my journey at Slough or Reading, use a nearby café, and resume travel afterwards.

I once encountered an even more farcical version of this in reality: Advance Single from Hereford to Exeter St Davids. The train was very severely delayed - six hours (!) before it even departed. However, once we had passed through the barriers, the staff refused to let anyone with an Advance ticket leave. Once phrases like "false imprisonment" started to be bandied about (not by me!), they said that if anyone with an Advance ticket left the station - say, to go to Tesco's across the street, or to smoke - they would not be let back in, as they would be deemed to have abandoned their journey.

I don't know what the gateline staff's problem was that day - perhaps they were stressed about rounding people up once the RRB coaches arrived? - but in any case, this shows you that the railway can and will "get stupid" about not permitting break of journey on Advances during disruption.

(3) Self-created split tickets (two Advance Singles) between Oxford and Swansea (connecting in Reading). The first is Oxford to Paddington, the second Reading to Swansea. Let's say GWR revenue protection staff are inspecting tickets on the Reading platform (it's happened to me!) and they literally see me hop off the Oxford to London train (assume it's operating on time) when the doors open at Reading. In this situation I would of course hold a valid ticket originating in Reading (permitting me to be in the station) but would, if asked, need to produce a ticket valid for the previous train. Advance Singles don't allow a break of journey. So the act of getting off the first train is prohibited, even though my presence on both that train and the platform are authorised.

I agree with Benjwri. Your crime is not in being at Reading wrongly; it is in (retroactively) not holding a valid ticket from Oxford.

(4) A bus substitution is introduced from Guildford to Gatwick Airport and I have a split itinerary in mind from Reading to Redhill (Advance Single) to Gatwick Airport (planning on using contactless at Redhill, but no ticket yet). Barriers won't let me exit at Guildford, and I have no ticket entitling me to board the bus.

I think that once the train is curtailed at Guildford, your 28.2 rights kick in. So, similar to situation one, it is technically up to GWR whether they want to acquit themselves of their obligations by letting you use the bus, or whether they prefer to "force" you to wait for a taxi. And similar to my experience at Hereford, I don't think you have an actual right to leave the station.

 

[agk2126]

It would be ideal, and technically quite simple, to implement a system that immediately and automatically unlocks substantial itinerary flexibility to Advances if the ticketed service is disrupted. At the very least, any delay or cancellation could permit (a) breaks of journey, (b) passing back and forth at will through barriers at an origin or connection station, (c) travel on earlier or later services with the same TOC, (d) travel to or from other stations using the same TOC, and (e) linking or "marrying" any split tickets originally purchased together.

This largely exists with airline booking systems (at least for legacy carriers, not Ryanair!) where a significant disruption automatically allows affected passengers to modify their itineraries at no cost, and switch flights, routes, or even origin/destination airports.

 

[Tetchytyke]

(1) Advance Single from Bicester North to London Marylebone. A major disruption stops all Chiltern services into London, and I'm stuck at High Wycombe with no trains to London in the foreseeable future. I decide to abandon my journey and return to Bicester, but the only options are to Bicester Village.

Chiltern would be within their rights to insist you get the train back to Bicester Village. As the two stations are not part of a group you would be within your rights to request a taxi from Village to North stations, especially if you were unable to walk the 1.3 miles, although I think most people would just walk it or take the bus.

(2) Advance Single on GWR from Oxford to Paddington. Train is severely delayed and I need to take a Zoom call from reliable wifi (i.e. off the train). I want to break my journey at Slough or Reading, use a nearby café, and resume travel afterwards.

This is simple: not allowed. And this is more likely to be enforced.

Advance Singles don't allow a break of journey. So the act of getting off the first train is prohibited, even though my presence on both that train and the platform are authorised.

This is also simple: not allowed. Your journey was from Oxford to Reading not Oxford to London, therefore you finished short. Whether this is enforced is a different matter.

In reality I would be surprised if this ever came up as tickets to London are generally priced at a premium, i.e. splitting at Reading will nearly always be cheaper.

(4) A bus substitution is introduced from Guildford to Gatwick Airport and I have a split itinerary in mind from Reading to Redhill (Advance Single) to Gatwick Airport (planning on using contactless at Redhill, but no ticket yet). Barriers won't let me exit at Guildford, and I have no ticket entitling me to board the bus.

A ticket from Reading to Redhill would let you board the rail replacement bus from Guildford to Redhill. Redhill is before Gatwick.

Should they decide to run the RRB direct to Gatwick instead, GWR would still have to get you to Redhill. Again, in reality they'd let you get the Gatwick RRB and then take a train from Redhill.

 

[agk2126]

In reality I would be surprised if this ever came up as tickets to London are generally priced at a premium, i.e. splitting at Reading will nearly always be cheaper.

Advance Singles between Oxford and Paddington are routinely £4.30 with a Railcard discount, whereas the cheapest (off peak Railcard discounted) contactless fare between Reading and Paddington is $14.70. For direct GWR services between London and Oxford, I've rarely (if ever) seen Advance fares for sale between Oxford and Reading. And the off-peak Railcard single fare for the RDG-OXF segment, in either direction, is £8.30. Splitting at Reading would therefore be at least £23, a difference of over 500% from the Advance fare! On these particular trains, splitting at Reading is nearly always much more expensive. Hopping off is not technically allowed when travelling an Advance ticket, but would save a hefty chunk of money.

There appear to be dozens of such opportunities across the network. Could there be there a name for this practice? It's certainly a close cousin of split ticketing, but achieves even more substantial cost savings by using one or more tickets for less than their entire journey. It is technically not allowed but at no point in these journeys do passengers not hold a valid ticket.

Another example is London Liverpool St to Stansted Airport. Off-Peak Day Singles from Stansted Mountfitchet to Stansted Airport are £2.90, and Advance Singles from Liverpool St to Cambridge (on services that stop at Stansted Mountfitchet) are as low as £4. This compares to £21 for an Off-Peak Day Single from Liverpool St to Stansted Airport. Therefore, one could hop off the Cambridge-bound train at Stansted Mountfitchet and catch a connection to Stansted Airport (only ~7 mins) and pay £6.90 instead of £21.

 

[Watershed]

Advance Singles between Oxford and Paddington are routinely £4.30 with a Railcard discount, whereas the cheapest (off peak Railcard discounted) contactless fare between Reading and Paddington is $14.70. For direct GWR services between London and Oxford, I've rarely (if ever) seen Advance fares for sale between Oxford and Reading. And the off-peak Railcard single fare for the RDG-OXF segment, in either direction, is £8.30. Splitting at Reading would therefore be at least £23, a difference of over 500% from the Advance fare! On these particular trains, splitting at Reading is nearly always much more expensive. Hopping off is not technically allowed when travelling an Advance ticket, but would save a hefty chunk of money.

There appear to be dozens of such opportunities across the network. Could there be there a name for this practice? It's certainly a close cousin of split ticketing, but achieves even more substantial cost savings by using one or more tickets for less than their entire journey. It is technically not allowed but at no point in these journeys do passengers not hold a valid ticket.

Another example is London Liverpool St to Stansted Airport. Off-Peak Day Singles from Stansted Mountfitchet to Stansted Airport are £2.90, and Advance Singles from Liverpool St to Cambridge (on services that stop at Stansted Mountfitchet) are as low as £4. This compares to £21 for an Off-Peak Day Single from Liverpool St to Stansted Airport. Therefore, one could hop off the Cambridge-bound train at Stansted Mountfitchet and catch a connection to Stansted Airport (only ~7 mins) and pay £6.90 instead of £21.

You could also entirely legitimately split flexible fares at Stansted Mountfitchet and save compared to the £21 through single fare, thus permitting you to use a direct train. I suspect that is a more attractive option for most.

 

[JonathanH]

Another example is London Liverpool St to Stansted Airport. Off-Peak Day Singles from Stansted Mountfitchet to Stansted Airport are £2.90, and Advance Singles from Liverpool St to Cambridge (on services that stop at Stansted Mountfitchet) are as low as £4.

Turning up at Stansted Airport with a ticket from Stansted Mountfitchet and having no evidence of starting your journey at that location is not a wise move. Showing an advance single from Liverpool Street to Cambridge to explain what you have done is not going to find favour with the revenue staff.

Clearly holding separate valid tickets from Liverpool Street to Stansted Mountfitchet and Stansted Mountfitchet to Stansted Airport is fine.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Advance Singles between Oxford and Paddington are routinely £4.30 with a Railcard discount, whereas the cheapest (off peak Railcard discounted) contactless fare between Reading and Paddington is $14.70.

Your question was about heading to Swansea not London, so I am quite unsure what your point is.

Therefore, one could hop off the Cambridge-bound train at Stansted Mountfitchet and catch a connection to Stansted Airport (only ~7 mins) and pay £6.90 instead of £21.

That would be a very quick way of attracting the attention of the numerous revenue protection staff at Stansted Airport.

There are legitimate ways of splitting at Stansted Mountfitchet. This is not one of them.

 

[Watershed]

Turning up at Stansted Airport with a ticket from Stansted Mountfitchet and having no evidence of starting your journey at that location is not a wise move. Showing an advance single from Liverpool Street to Cambridge to explain what you have done is not going to find favour with the revenue staff.

There is no requirement to produce evidence you have started your journey at any particular station. Stansted Mountfitchet doesn't have barriers so the absence of scan records on an eTicket doesn't prove anything.

In any case, the suggestion was to change trains at Mountfitchet as I understand it, so the second ticket (the one presented at the Airport) would have been used entirely legitimately.

 

[agk2126]

Your question was about heading to Swansea not London, so I am quite unsure what your point is.

Yes, Oxford to Swansea was my original example! Specifically, on many weekdays next month, the cheapest Advance Singles from Reading to Swansea are £27. Oxford to Paddington Advance Singles are £5 on GWR services stopping in Reading. The cheapest Oxford to Reading tickets are mostly Off-Peak Day Singles for £12.50. Meanwhile, Oxford to Swansea tickets (on the same GWR trains with a connection in Reading) are typically only available as Super Off-Peak Singles for £63.60.

In other words, basic split ticketing (buying tickets for Oxford to Reading, and Reading to Swansea) would save £24.10 compared to the Oxford to Swansea ticket. This more complex split ticketing idea (buying tickets on the same two trains, but for Oxford to Paddington and Reading to Swansea) saves £31.60, an additional £7.50 compared to traditional split ticketing.

I'm just noticing how common these opportunities seem to be.

Showing an advance single from Liverpool Street to Cambridge to explain what you have done is not going to find favour with the revenue staff.

That would be a very quick way of attracting the attention of the numerous revenue protection staff at Stansted Airport.

What exactly would attract their attention? Aren't revenue staff at Stansted Airport simply checking that passengers hold valid tickets? In my scenario, the passenger would have simply travelled from Stansted Mountfitchet to Stansted Airport, holding a perfectly legitimate £2.90 ticket.

There is no requirement to produce evidence you have started your journey at any particular station. Stansted Mountfitchet doesn't have barriers so there would be no scan records either wau, and the OP would indeed legitimately have boarded a train there.

Indeed. And even if Stansted Mountfitchet did have barriers, one could have bought a ticket from Liverpool Street to Stansted Mountfitchet and waited for the connection to Stansted Airport without ever leaving the platform.

 

[Tetchytyke]

In any case, the suggestion was to change trains at Mountfitchet as I understand it, so the second ticket (the one presented at the Airport) would have been used entirely legitimately.

However the Advance ticket that took the person to Stansted Mountfitchet would not have been used correctly.

And revenue staff are perfectly entitled to ask where someone holding a very common short-fare ticket originally started their journey from.

What exactly would attract their attention?

It is an extremely common short-faring ticket. It will attract the attention of revenue staff, as the briefest of looks in the disputes forum will demonstrate.

 

[agk2126]

It is an extremely common short-faring ticket. It will attract the attention of revenue staff, as the briefest of looks in the disputes forum will demonstrate.

This makes sense. However, at the destination station, how can revenue staff possibly distinguish a short-faring passenger from a passenger who legitimately took a short journey?

From the disputes forum it appears that passengers are caught short faring when (a) revenue staff inspect their tickets somewhere mid-journey, where their short-fare tickets are not yet (or no longer) valid, or (b) when they voluntarily admit to short-faring when asked.

 

[Tetchytyke]

However, at the destination station, how can revenue staff possibly distinguish a short-faring passenger from a passenger who legitimately took a short journey?

By asking you where you came from.

There is a case in the disputes thread where someone received an MG11 at Luton Airport Parkway having legitimately traveled from Luton. They can defend it because they legitimately did travel from Luton. It would be much tougher if you’d come from Liverpool Street by finishing early on a ticket that did not allow you to finish early.

 

[agk2126]

By asking you where you came from.

Again, very interesting. In my scenario at SSD, given I would have legitimately travelled from SST with a valid ticket, how I originally arrived at SST (even if a known hot spot for short-faring) seems a bit out of scope for revenue staff. Following that logic, revenue staff could ask how I had gotten to London.

Perhaps I had been dropped off at Stansted Mountfitchet by a friend. Or I walked there along the Flitch Way pedestrian path. Or I travelled there from London using a paper ticket and tossed it in a bin once it was no longer needed.

Would revenue staff penalise or report someone simply for holding a valid ticket that is (a) cheap and (b) frequently used as an ingredient in other passengers' short-faring attempts?

There is a case in the disputes thread where someone received an MG11 at Luton Airport Parkway having legitimately traveled from Luton.

Do you happen to have a link to that specific disputes thread? I can see several discussions involving actual short-faring involving Luton Airport Parkway and Luton, but not sure I can find the one you're describing.

 

[z444z]

Do you happen to have a link to that specific disputes thread? I can see several discussions involving actual short-faring involving Luton Airport Parkway and Luton, but not sure I can find the one you're describing.

Govia witness statement - not guilty

Hi, I took the thameslink from Luton to Luton Airport Parkway today, it is just one stop away and about 2 minutes journey. I purchased an off-peak single ticket at about 10am, as I wasn’t sure what train I was going to get. I ended up getting the 15:43 train. I scanned my ticket at the Luton...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Watershed]

And revenue staff are perfectly entitled to ask where someone holding a very common short-fare ticket originally started their journey from.

They can ask but you're under no obligation to answer. If you did, you could entirely legitimately tell them you boarded the train at Mountfitchet and invite them to check the on-train CCTV if they want.

I wouldn't be engaging in any further conversation or waiting any longer if I were in that scenario, I'd show them the valid ticket and that would be the end of the matter.