What's going to happen to the Class 222's after the Class 810's replace them?

[GoneSouth]

There are door open buttons at all the panels on a 222. Driver has to press a handover button to allow the Guard to open the doors. This is how EMR operate now. The problem is there is no option for the Guard to open a local door first before releasing the rest of the doors.

Given RMT have already signed an agreement for DOCCO on ScotRail, it's very likely they'll agree to it on the 222s.

Aslef are happy enough with DOCCO, I believe and there should be no issues from them.

As their main issue is safety with the HSTs it’s inconceivable that they could turn down a much better alternative by not agreeing to this change isn’t it? But then the logic of unions baffles me sometimes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Oct 2025 ==

And why is an open-access operator apparently getting priority for these units when there are TOCs needing more diesel trains, e.g. Scotrail for replacing the HSTs or XC for extra capacity?

I agree XC should be given the option to take these before Lumo, but unfortunately nobody in the industry is interested in making XC a success, they all would rather it simply vanished into history then we can all get on with running loads more trains to London

 

[43096]

I’m absolutely amazed at the 222s being released before any sign of replacements in service. Shows a complete contempt for passengers and is absolutely disgraceful. Couldn’t anybody be bothered to negotiate a short term extension? Or, more likely Have we surrendered all control of national infrastructure to financial institutions who want to bleed it (and us) dry.

Depressing!

They’ve already been extended more than once.

 

[John R]

And why is an open-access operator apparently getting priority for these units when there are TOCs needing more diesel trains, e.g. Scotrail for replacing the HSTs or XC for extra capacity?

Well Scotrail is (subject to an official announcement) getting them, other than those going to Lumo.

And the DfT has shown no interest in using them for anything in England, so it’s not a case of Open access getting priority - the owner is simply leasing them to the only two operators which have shown an interest in them.

 

[TrainViation]

I wonder how long until it's announced. Probably once EMR gets a few more 810s and more 222s are given back.

 

[mullac30]

Does anyone have any updates as to when (or if) we can expect an announcement regarding the 222's coming to Scotrail?

 

[John R]

Does anyone have any updates as to when (or if) we can expect an announcement regarding the 222's coming to Scotrail?

Probably when they’ve sorted the contract variation to fit snowploughs to them…

 

[ThatBloke]

Does anyone have any updates as to when (or if) we can expect an announcement regarding the 222's coming to Scotrail?

I suggest that won't be announced until there is far more clarity on Hitachi rollout of the 810s.
East Mids won't want to be caught short of units through giving up the 222s prematurely.
They could always lease them back from Eversholt before they go off to another operator. Which everyone believes to be Scotrail.

 

[John R]

I suggest that won't be announced until there is far more clarity on Hitachi rollout of the 810s.
East Mids won't want to be caught short of units through giving up the 222s prematurely.
They could always lease them back from Eversholt before they go off to another operator. Which everyone believes to be Scotrail.

Surely if the EMR contract for them is ending, it’s not in its gift to negotiate an extension if the lessor has another customer lined up to take them?

 

[D365]

They could always lease them back from Eversholt before they go off to another operator. Which everyone believes to be Scotrail.

Surely if the EMR contract for them is ending, it’s not in its gift to negotiate an extension if the lessor has another customer lined up to take them?

It has previously been speculated that a sublease may be taking place...

 

[Spaceship323]

EMR have issued a tender for the storage of 222's until august 2026 (not sure if this is what will happen though) - Sorry can't link to bidstats as it requires an account

 

[InTheEastMids]

EMR have issued a tender for the storage of 222's until august 2026 (not sure if this is what will happen though) - Sorry can't link to bidstats as it requires an account

It's on gov.uk Find a Tender here:

Provision of Class 810 and Class 222 Vehicle Storage - Find a Tender

www.find-tender.service.gov.uk

Off-topic, but the tender tells its own little tale of the 810 introduction

Original notice in 2023 was for warm storage of 810s (Lot 1) and cold storage of 222 (Lot 2), which is EMR saying "We'll have more 810s than we know what to do with, and the 222s will not be going to anybody for some time".

This was then updated to warm storage of 810s and warm storage of 222 i.e. "We'll still have loads of 810s, but they will be a bit later so the 222s won't be out of use for long enough to make cold storage worthwhile"

Then last year, Lot 1 (warm storage of 810s) was cancelled i.e. "We need all the 810s as soon as they're available and they'll go straight into service".

I saw that the latest revision has Lot 2 mentions cold storage of 222s. This has 2 explanations
1. Admin error and the text from the original contract notice was used
2. The period of time EMR might need to store them has now increased, suggesting a combination of a lease extension by EMR (as insurance for further 810 issues) and/or that Scotrail have deferred when they expect to take them.

 

[Snow1964]

EMR have issued a tender for the storage of 222's until august 2026 (not sure if this is what will happen though) - Sorry can't link to bidstats as it requires an account

There is also this award issued just before Christmas of extension of maintenance / parts for 222s valued at £32m to 31 December 2026. That's lot of money and suggests 222s not leaving EMR in next few weeks.

1 buyer​

• Transport UK East Midlands London

1 supplier​

• Alstom Engineering & Services Derbyshire

Description​

Transport UK East Midlands Railway Limited intends to extend the current technical support and spares supply (TSSSA) services until 31/12/2026. To Direct Award in accordance with the Procurement Act Regulations 2023 under Schedule 5 Direct Award. additional or repeat goods, services or works. For the provision of Class 222 fleet and associated equipment. The Service Provider will be the Supplier of all spares and consumables required for the maintenance of the fleet.

Award Detail​

1	Alstom Engineering & Services (Derbyshire) Reference: 1 Value: £32,000,000

CPV Codes​

• None found

Legal Justification​

Single Supplier - Alstom are the Manufacturer and incumbent supplier of the spares. Alstom therefore have all the technical knowledge about how this train was designed and manufactured. They have supported the units for the life of the fleet and hold the spares and technical knowledge in the market.

https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2025/W51/860750036

 

[3RDGEN]

Hitachi was quoted in the January issue of Modern Railways to be delivering two units a month so assuming that's units fit for passenger service it will be a push to have the full fleet in passenger service by the end of 2026 but hopefully they may speed that up a bit towards the end. On that basis EMR could release units, beyond the LUMO ones, from April/May without it affecting their service capacity. All depends on the leasing agreements in place.

If there is good news to be announced for ScotRail it will be released well in advance of the Holyrood elections in May.

 

[whoosh]

2. The period of time EMR might need to store them has now increased, suggesting a combination of a lease extension by EMR (as insurance for further 810 issues) and/or that Scotrail have deferred when they expect to take them.

Issues with toilets, toilet doors, sinks, internal cab doors, external cab doors, cab heat....

Apparently, they are considerably different to GWR, LNER, Hull Trains, and Lumo Hitachi trains, and are based on designs by Ansaldobreda. Which if you've ever heard the name, probably explains a lot...!

 

[D365]

Apparently, they are considerably different to GWR, LNER, Hull Trains, and Lumo Hitachi trains, and are based on designs by Ansaldobreda. Which if you've ever heard the name, probably explains a lot...!

Not just based on designs. Class 810 is designed by what was formerly AnsaldoBreda before it was acquired by Hitachi Rail Europe.

 

[MarkyT]

Not just based on designs. Class 810 is designed by what was formerly AnsaldoBreda before it was acquired by Hitachi Rail Europe.

Trains based on IET were procured separately by GWR from Hitachi who, to speed up delivery at a busy time, chose to build them at their recently acquired Italian subsidiary rather than Newton Aycliffe.

It may be that corporately the Italian office has since become the lead design authority for the AT300 family of trains in Europe and the 810s are definitely a development of that series rather than a completely different design.

Italian built AnsaldoBreda products for the UK and other countries certainly had quality issues in the past. The 810s are being built in the UK however.

 

[Norther Monkey]

Assuming that the 222s do replace Scotrail's HSTs will it be the same number of units or more? It would be nice to finally get rid of the 2 car units on Aberdeen to Inverness route.

 

[Snow1964]

Assuming that the 222s do replace Scotrail's HSTs will it be the same number of units or more? It would be nice to finally get rid of the 2 car units on Aberdeen to Inverness route.

From memory Lumo have leased a few (think it is 5 x 6car, happy to be corrected).

That leaves 22 units, mainly 5car which is less than 9 x 4car + 17 x 5car.

However Lumo have orders for new bimodes, with options for more, so possibly they will only have them 3-4 years. Potentially (and this is guesswork) they could keep something short term until they can get the remainder

Of course, not yet guaranteed that Scotrail can secure the 222s if an open access operator outbids them for leasing.

 

[D365]

From memory Lumo have leased a few (think it is 5 x 6car, happy to be corrected).

That leaves 22 units, mainly 5car which is less than 9 x 4car + 17 x 5car.

If we assume that all Class 222 units will be mechanically overhauled before reentering service, one could reasonably expect that utilisation of the 22 Class 222s will be greater than ScotRail’s HST fleet.

 

[Norther Monkey]

From memory Lumo have leased a few (think it is 5 x 6car, happy to be corrected).

That leaves 22 units, mainly 5car which is less than 9 x 4car + 17 x 5car.

However Lumo have orders for new bimodes, with options for more, so possibly they will only have them 3-4 years. Potentially (and this is guesswork) they could keep something short term until they can get the remainder

Of course, not yet guaranteed that Scotrail can secure the 222s if an open access operator outbids them for leasing.

Seems a poor option then, was hoping that HST replacement would provide some consistency of rolling stock between Aberdeen and Inverness.

 

[hexagon789]

Seems a poor option then, was hoping that HST replacement would provide some consistency of rolling stock between Aberdeen and Inverness.

While there are fewer remaining 222s available than ScotRail have HST sets, there are only 16 HST diagrams at maximum currently, so at present usage levels you would probably be able to get an extra 3 diagrams at least.

More significantly however, is that the 222s have less seats. Let us assume you reseated the sets, so you only have First Class in the driving car and perhaps even removed the buffet counter - that still only gets you a similar number of seats to a 4-car HST.

 

[stevieinselby]

Seems a poor option then, was hoping that HST replacement would provide some consistency of rolling stock between Aberdeen and Inverness.

I would be surprised if Aberdeen to Inverness needed the capacity beyond 2- or 3-car units, and with the line having a max speed of 75mph it seems even more of a waste of 125mph trains than having them running on Edinburgh/Glasgow to Aberdeen/Inverness services.

More significantly however, is that the 222s have less seats. Let us assume you reseated the sets, so you only have First Class in the driving car and perhaps even removed the buffet counter - that still only gets you a similar number of seats to a 4-car HST.

How big a deal is that likely to be – do the 5-car trains generally fill up? Looking at what's running today, about half of the trains running on the EDB/GLQ to ABD/INV routes are 5-car, a quarter are 4-car and another quarter are 3-car (or in one case 2-car). Obviously we don't want capacity to drop below demand, but on the other hand if there are typically plenty of spare seats then we can accommodate a small reduction in capacity without any negative consequences.

 

[hexagon789]

I would be surprised if Aberdeen to Inverness needed the capacity beyond 2- or 3-car units, and with the line having a max speed of 75mph it seems even more of a waste of 125mph trains than having them running on Edinburgh/Glasgow to Aberdeen/Inverness services.

Aberdeen to Inverness is generally more overcrowded than Glasgow to Aberdeen in my experience.

How big a deal is that likely to be – do the 5-car trains generally fill up? Looking at what's running today, about half of the trains running on the EDB/GLQ to ABD/INV routes are 5-car, a quarter are 4-car and another quarter are 3-car (or in one case 2-car). Obviously we don't want capacity to drop below demand, but on the other hand if there are typically plenty of spare seats then we can accommodate a small reduction in capacity without any negative consequences.

The 5-cars often fill up in the summer season, particularly on Edinburgh/Inverness where they can be standing room only, especially on Sundays when there are fewer trains.

Conversely, 4-cars is frequently overkill in the winter on Glasgow/Aberdeen where all passengers from Queen Street would fit comfortably in a 158 and half get out at Stirling anyway...

 

[Highlander1]

I would be surprised if Aberdeen to Inverness needed the capacity beyond 2- or 3-car units, and with the line having a max speed of 75mph it seems even more of a waste of 125mph trains than having them running on Edinburgh/Glasgow to Aberdeen/Inverness services.


How big a deal is that likely to be – do the 5-car trains generally fill up? Looking at what's running today, about half of the trains running on the EDB/GLQ to ABD/INV routes are 5-car, a quarter are 4-car and another quarter are 3-car (or in one case 2-car). Obviously we don't want capacity to drop below demand, but on the other hand if there are typically plenty of spare seats then we can accommodate a small reduction in capacity without any negative consequences.

Remember you are looking at the quietest period of the year at the moment. The top speed of the train is irrelevant, it's capacity that's the issue. Scotrail don't operate any services at 125mph (in fact there's very little over 90mph on the Intercity routes)

ABD/GLQ a 4 car is sufficient for most journeys with some later evening services needing only 2/3 car
ABD/EDB generally need 4/5 car for most of the day, especially at weekends.
ABD/INV varies massively, some journeys a 158 is more than sufficient where as on others 5/6 cars are required.
INV/EDB&GLQ are regularly full over the summer as 5 car sets but it's massively seasonal given the tourist numbers.

While there are fewer remaining 222s available than ScotRail have HST sets, there are only 16 HST diagrams at maximum currently, so at present usage levels you would probably be able to get an extra 3 diagrams at least.

More significantly however, is that the 222s have less seats. Let us assume you reseated the sets, so you only have First Class in the driving car and perhaps even removed the buffet counter - that still only gets you a similar number of seats to a 4-car HST.

The tender specifies 19 diagrams a day. Scotrail diagram 16-17 HSTs a day so that's an increase over the HST fleet. You'll also probably see diagrams with more intensive usage as some of the HST diagrams are very light.

222 have fewer seats than a 5 car HST but they will need a refit before entering service. Scotrail have no use for a galley and the current layout has to many 1st class seats which will need to be changed.

 

[cle]

Is Scotrail certain?

I also think TfW could be interesting. Manchester-Cardiff is a good candidate, plus the Gerald/Holyhead services too. Take over Nottingham.

And if they also ran the future Moor St services from Cardiff and Bristol. Could be GWR though.

 

[Highlander1]

Iys

Is Scotrail certain?

I also think TfW could be interesting. Manchester-Cardiff is a good candidate, plus the Gerald/Holyhead services too. Take over Nottingham.

And if they also ran the future Moor St services from Cardiff and Bristol. Could be GWR though.

Its not been announced they're going to Scotrail but it's the worst kept secret in railway history

 

[swt_passenger]

If we assume that all Class 222 units will be mechanically overhauled before reentering service, one could reasonably expect that utilisation of the 22 Class 222s will be greater than ScotRail’s HST fleet.

Why would you assume that? They’ll perhaps be re-arranged to different lengths, but I’d be surprised if much else was done to the traction systems.

 

[Topological]

Is Scotrail certain?

I also think TfW could be interesting. Manchester-Cardiff is a good candidate, plus the Gerald/Holyhead services too. Take over Nottingham.

And if they also ran the future Moor St services from Cardiff and Bristol. Could be GWR though.

It would be great. We would not need Cardiff terminators from Manchester any more.

However, they are going to Scotrail and are probably better suited up there anyway.

I would not mind TfW getting the spare voyagers in place of the Mk4s, but that won't happen either.

Just ordering more 197s to get rid of microfleet issues would also be great. That won't happen.

So we are still stuck with a fleet of 7 Mk4 sets that have not completed their 5 working day diagrams yet this year (though might have done on Thursday if the weather had not kicked in, they did not on the first 4 working days). Before anyone starts on the Mk4s being lovely trains. They are lovely, but they are not reliable.

 

[Norther Monkey]

ABD/GLQ a 4 car is sufficient for most journeys with some later evening services needing only 2/3 car
ABD/EDB generally need 4/5 car for most of the day, especially at weekends.
ABD/INV varies massively, some journeys a 158 is more than sufficient where as on others 5/6 cars are required.
INV/EDB&GLQ are regularly full over the summer as 5 car sets but it's massively seasonal given the tourist numbers.

The problem with ABD/INV is that the allocation of 158 or HST doesn't always match the demand. In addition the current mixed fleet means many of the peak HSTs are replaced with 158s when units fail.

This means that the passenger experience is hugely variable, and often very poor. Hence my car gets more use than it would do given a full HST fleet.

 

[ThatBloke]

Why would you assume that? They’ll perhaps be re-arranged to different lengths, but I’d be surprised if much else was done to the traction systems.

From a traction standpoint, the 222 powerpacks are overhauled based on the miles run as are the wheelsets. Those assets are managed uniquely, so the 5 powerpacks will likley have 5 very different miles remaining to their planned life to next overhaul.
Similarly for the bogies which are overhauled either light or heavy intervention scope as a campaign unit by unit across the fleet, miles based again but at approximately 4 year intervals.
Perhaps there will be an interior refresh and some attempts to deal with the inevitable corrosion on the bodyshell, after 20years of service. Before a handover to a new TOC.