Freedom Pass to become buses only?

[Shimbleshanks]

Only an idea that's being floated, at the moment, but it's disturbing that it's even being considered.

Where we live in South London, buses are a complete waste of time; it's an insult. Take five times as long as the train to central London, and there are no direct day routes. And I certainly wouldn't relish the idea of going back to paying eye-watering Zone 1-6 train fares.

Khan - or any Labour successor - will not be getting my vote if this comes to fruition. In fact, I might well move out of London - council tax would be lower and I'd probably make a bit of a capital gain by selling my property and getting a cheaper one.

Report on the BBC news site today (7 January):

Free travel for older Londoners could be cut back​

Access to free travel across the capital could be reduced after London Councils confirmed it was planning to carry out a review of the Older Person's Freedom Pass.
The body, which represents London's 32 boroughs and the City of London, is concerned about the rising expense for councils of delivering the scheme.
It said no changes were currently planned, but one of the ideas that has been suggested was to limit free transport for over 66-year-olds to buses only. By doing so, it could save London councils over £100m a year.
The Freedom Pass allows those aged over 66 free travel on buses, the Tube, trams, DLR, London Overground, the Elizabeth line and most National Rail services in the capital.
Older Person's Freedom Pass is paid for by London's 32 boroughs and the City of London Corporation.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The body, which represents London's 32 boroughs and the City of London, is concerned about the rising expense for councils of delivering the scheme.
It said no changes were currently planned, but one of the ideas that has been suggested was to limit free transport for over 66-year-olds to buses only. By doing so, it could save London councils over £100m a year.

Would this not have the effect, then, of costing TfL and the TOCs most of that £100 million, assuming most holders do not subsequently switch to buying rail / Underground tickets?

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Very likely, I would guess. Can't see it leading to an extra £100m year spending on rail and tube fares.

Speaking personally, most of my Freedom Pass use is for leisure trips; if I can't go into London for free, likely I'd go somewhere else instead.

This would actually put over 66s in London in a worse position than those in other parts of the country.

If you live in Manchester or a rural area, a bus might be a reasonable option to reach your nearest town or city centre, indeed it may be the only option. But buses just aren't a serious form of transport from most London suburbs into the centre, to the point where they are, effectively, unusable.

From where I live it would be around two hours to the West End or City.

 

[Joe Paxton]

At a guess I'd say this might be a bit of kite flying just to show what a visceral reaction such a proposal would bring.

Also, just to point out that the Freedom Pass is administered, paid for and issued by the London boroughs (via the collective 'London Councils' organisation), not by the Mayor of London, the GLA or TfL.
(The 60+ Oyster Photocard is different - this is issued by TfL under Mayoral direction.)

This isn't going to happen. However, council finances really are in dire straits (across the country, not just in London).

 

[Statto]

At a guess I'd say this might be a bit of kite flying just to show what a visceral reaction such a proposal would bring.

Also, just to point out that the Freedom Pass is administered, paid for and issued by the London boroughs (via the collective 'London Councils' organisation), not by the Mayor of London, the GLA or TfL.
(The 60+ Oyster Photocard is different - this is issued by TfL under Mayoral direction.)

This isn't going to happen. However, council finances really are in dire straits (across the country, not just in London).

Yeah, feel this is one of those, put out possible controversial changes to see what the mood is, then backtrack when the fallout from it gets heated.

 

[ChilliSauce]

Report on the BBC news site today (7 January). Only an idea that's being floated, at the moment, but it's disturbing that it's even being considered. Where we live in South London, buses are a complete waste of time; it's an insult. Take five times as long as the train to central London and there are no direct day routes. And I certainly wouldn't relish the idea of going back to paying eye-watering Zone 1-6 train fares. Khan - or any Labour successor - will not be getting my vote if this comes to fruition. In fact, I might well move out of London - council tax would be lower and I'd probably make a bit of a capital gain by selling my property and getting a cheaper one.

Free travel for older Londoners could be cut back​

Access to free travel across the capital could be reduced after London Councils confirmed it was planning to carry out a review of the Older Person's Freedom Pass.
The body, which represents London's 32 boroughs and the City of London, is concerned about the rising expense for councils of delivering the scheme.
It said no changes were currently planned, but one of the ideas that has been suggested was to limit free transport for over 66-year-olds to buses only. By doing so, it could save London councils over £100m a year.
The Freedom Pass allows those aged over 66 free travel on buses, the Tube, trams, DLR, London Overground, the Elizabeth line and most National Rail services in the capital.
Older Person's Freedom Pass is paid for by London's 32 boroughs and the City of London Corporation.

Report on the BBC news site today (7 January). Only an idea that's being floated, at the moment, but it's disturbing that it's even being considered. Where we live in South London, buses are a complete waste of time; it's an insult. Take five times as long as the train to central London and there are no direct day routes. And I certainly wouldn't relish the idea of going back to paying eye-watering Zone 1-6 train fares. Khan - or any Labour successor - will not be getting my vote if this comes to fruition. In fact, I might well move out of London - council tax would be lower and I'd probably make a bit of a capital gain by selling my property and getting a cheaper one.

Free travel for older Londoners could be cut back​

Access to free travel across the capital could be reduced after London Councils confirmed it was planning to carry out a review of the Older Person's Freedom Pass.
The body, which represents London's 32 boroughs and the City of London, is concerned about the rising expense for councils of delivering the scheme.
It said no changes were currently planned, but one of the ideas that has been suggested was to limit free transport for over 66-year-olds to buses only. By doing so, it could save London councils over £100m a year.
The Freedom Pass allows those aged over 66 free travel on buses, the Tube, trams, DLR, London Overground, the Elizabeth line and most National Rail services in the capital.
Older Person's Freedom Pass is paid for by London's 32 boroughs and the City of London Corporation.

Well such a move, as unpopular as it may be, would in fact level up the pass availability to match those older person passes issued by councils in the provences.

As example: older person pass holders in say Twyford, Berkshire can't use their passes on the Elizabeth line so why does the reverse apply for those passes issued by London Councils and valid right out into Berkshire?

 

[tumbledown]

Shimbleshanks has a point though: the average speed of road traffic in London is half that of say Birmingham, and the bus network has probably been layed out to concentrate on journeys not catered for by rail, underground and tram.

 

[mickey]

Yeah, feel this is one of those, put out possible controversial changes to see what the mood is, then backtrack when the fallout from it gets heated.

Given the timing, I’d be surprised if it weren’t specifically designed to throw out ‘we have no money’ messaging to justify the large increases in council tax that are about to be agreed by councils. It’ll go down a bit less badly if they then say ‘but we’ll keep travel passes’.

Four London councils in particular (alongside Windsor & Maidenhead outside the capital) will be raising taxes by very large %s, having been given permission (/orders) by government to do so.

 

[Mawkie]

Khan - or any Labour successor - will not be getting my vote if this comes to fruition.

This sounds like a typical cry from the Daily Fail - conflate two unrelated items and pass them off as one. What's Khan got to do with a Freedom Pass?

I might well move out of London - council tax would be lower and I'd probably make a bit of a capital gain by selling my property and getting a cheaper one.

Some London boroughs have the lowest council tax in the country, and you'd still end up paying to go into London by train - but I suppose you could use your capital gain to spend on rail fares. Seems like a curious argument to be honest.

This would actually put over 66s in London in a worse position than those in other parts of the country.

Incorrect, it would put you in the same situation as virtually every other 66 year old living in other parts of the country - with a free bus pass. Do you think older Londoners should get special treatment because the method of travel they are being given for free isn't fast enough for them?

I agree with others that this is no more than a piece put out there to gauge opinion, so is unlikely to come to anything.

I personally would be more interested in lowering the levels of fraudulent travel by all of the so-called high value passes rather than penalising one group of individuals. At the end of the day (and I can't believe I'm saying this out loud) but £100m isn't that much in the big scheme of things.

 

[Statto]

With the exception of London & whatever the PTE areas are now known as (like Merseytravel, TFGM ecc), is there any local authority that allows rail travel in there area to those using ENCTS issued by that authority?

 

[Bayum]

How would this be implemented? There’s no credit function on the ENCTS passes and scanning two cards would increase the time it takes for holders to pass through the ticket gates.

 

[Nym]

With the treasury's attack on disability benefits at the moment including things like the motobility scheme "charity", where there can be a clear financial hardship as disability in the UK costs you additional money to exist. Why should old persons' free travel enhancements not see some questions asked?

 

[Snow1964]

At a guess I'd say this might be a bit of kite flying just to show what a visceral reaction such a proposal would bring.

Also, just to point out that the Freedom Pass is administered, paid for and issued by the London boroughs (via the collective 'London Councils' organisation), not by the Mayor of London, the GLA or TfL.
(The 60+ Oyster Photocard is different - this is issued by TfL under Mayoral direction.)

This isn't going to happen. However, council finances really are in dire straits (across the country, not just in London).

London Councils pay for the extra over the ENCTS (English National concessionary Travel Scheme), bus travel passes for over 66 (going up to 67 soon)

They are paying for additional hours (statutory doesn't cover morning peak Mon-Friday), and for use on trains (effectively buying a underground season ticket)

The 60+ (which will have to cover extra year when pension age rises to 67) is a London mayor item, using TfL funds. It is basically giving every Londoner 60-65 (soon to 66) a free annual travelcard (which I think is now £3264). Not every person will use it fully but there are potentially people who would pay fares going to work etc if it didn't exist. The idea was first done when men and women pension age was different, and only covered one sex for 60-64, an average of 2.5 years, will soon be 7 years so nearly 3 times as generous.

The London mayor is up for election 7 May, so mayors policies could all change.

 

[Paul AC]

In Greater Manchester we pay £10 per year to add tram and train travel (after 09:30 Mon-Fri) within Greater Manchester onto our ENCTS passes; but we can only get those from age 66. Assuming it costs less than £10 per person per year to administer (it can all be arranged and paid online) that must help the financial side of things.

Getting ENCTS (etc.), for free, at age 60 seems far too young.....

 

[Elwyn]

With the exception of London & whatever the PTE areas are now known as (like Merseytravel, TFGM ecc), is there any local authority that allows rail travel in there area to those using ENCTS issued by that authority?

In Northern Ireland the qualification age for a bus pass is 60. It also includes free rail travel, anywhere in NI. Stormont was recently considering removing the rail element (as a cost saving measure), but due to the level of protests, that was not pursued.

 

[TUC]

I can see why such a proposal would cause a fuss, but it does seem yet another issue where Londoners are unaware that what they have is not available to most of the rest of the country.

This is very much a local issue.

 

[KHCT]

Report on the BBC news site today (7 January). Only an idea that's being floated, at the moment, but it's disturbing that it's even being considered. Where we live in South London, buses are a complete waste of time; it's an insult. Take five times as long as the train to central London and there are no direct day routes. And I certainly wouldn't relish the idea of going back to paying eye-watering Zone 1-6 train fares. Khan - or any Labour successor - will not be getting my vote if this comes to fruition. In fact, I might well move out of London - council tax would be lower and I'd probably make a bit of a capital gain by selling my property and getting a cheaper one.

Free travel for older Londoners could be cut back​

Access to free travel across the capital could be reduced after London Councils confirmed it was planning to carry out a review of the Older Person's Freedom Pass.
The body, which represents London's 32 boroughs and the City of London, is concerned about the rising expense for councils of delivering the scheme.
It said no changes were currently planned, but one of the ideas that has been suggested was to limit free transport for over 66-year-olds to buses only. By doing so, it could save London councils over £100m a year.
The Freedom Pass allows those aged over 66 free travel on buses, the Tube, trams, DLR, London Overground, the Elizabeth line and most National Rail services in the capital.
Older Person's Freedom Pass is paid for by London's 32 boroughs and the City of London Corporation.

TfL's single fare finder talls me that a single fare using Oyster and a Senior Railcard from Feltham (zone 6) to Central London in £3.45 each way. Is that really an "eye watering" fare that would prompt you to move house?

The reality here is that our friends in London get a huge perk that almost every other part of the country do not. If they want to pay for that, fair enough, but with council finances tight, I'd personally rather the money was spent on services council have to provide, not discressionary ones like this. Politicians love to give away 'free' things in return for votes, but this is another example of the problems these giveaways cause in later years.

 

[PeterC]

Getting ENCTS (etc.), for free, at age 60 seems far too young.....

The 60+ card does not give ENCTS validity.

It would be reasonable to give those over 66 a choice of a free ENCTS card or a paid for enhanced 60+ card with added ENCTS validity.

 

[Wallsendmag]

In Greater Manchester we pay £10 per year to add tram and train travel (after 09:30 Mon-Fri) within Greater Manchester onto our ENCTS passes; but we can only get those from age 66. Assuming it costs less than £10 per person per year to administer (it can all be arranged and paid online) that must help the financial side of things.

Getting ENCTS (etc.), for free, at age 60 seems far too young.....

Tyne and wear is more or less the same, you have to purchase a Gold Card add on to the ENCTS

 

[74A]

So if this proposal goes ahead Londoners will get free tube/train/bus from 60 to 66 then bus only from 67.

Perhaps they are hoping to put pressure on the London mayor to pay for the tube/train part and London councils only pay for the bus ?

 

[TrainTraveler]

I may be in the minority, but actually, as a holder of the Over 60s Oyster card and not far off the bus pass, I think limiting the free element to buses is not unreasonable.

What I would do is make the Tube and Rail element a reduced (say child) fare.

More radically, the Over 60s card could become half fare on both train and bus.

I would expect this change to result in (modest) increase in car use and some journeys not made, but the cost of both passes is quite a lot per head in financially stretched times.

 

[Buzby]

How would this be implemented? There’s no credit function on the ENCTS passes and scanning two cards would increase the time it takes for holders to pass through the ticket gates.

Not much different up here where we get a limited rail discount, but must obtain a ticket to travel from a manned ticket office or on train - online or TVMs are not available.

There is a credit function on the ENCTS/ITSO cards.

I can load funds at a Glasgow Subway TVM and travel and the cost is debited from the purse.

With central funds getting tighter, it’s simply redressing the current imbalance that has become sustainable.

 

[Haywain]

This would actually put over 66s in London in a worse position than those in other parts of the country. If you live in Manchester or a rural area, a bus might be a reasonable option to reach your nearest town or city centre, indeed it may be the only option. But buses just aren't a serious form of transport from most London suburbs into the centre, to the point where they are, effectively, unusable.

This is a rather starry-eyed view of bus services outside of London. In many rural areas services vary from slow and infrequent to non-existent. And even in urban areas they are generally only useful for getting to the town centre, or neighbouring towns if you are lucky.

 

[ChilliSauce]

In Greater Manchester we pay £10 per year to add tram and train travel (after 09:30 Mon-Fri) within Greater Manchester onto our ENCTS passes; but we can only get those from age 66. Assuming it costs less than £10 per person per year to administer (it can all be arranged and paid online) that must help the financial side of things.

In my view that would seem to be a fair and reasonable direction for TfL / London Councils to take to address the cost of the current situation.

The other debate is should the TfL funded over 60 pass continue with a option for purchase of an "freedom pass type" add on for transport other than by bus or just become bus only?

 

[Richardr]

the original story was in the Standard a few days ago

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...ver-cost-of-london-travel-freebie/ar-AA1TA5f9

One wonders whether, for at least some boroughs, this is an attempt to move the funding of the freedom pass to TfL making TfL move the money they currently spend on the 60+ free transport to this instead.

 

[jon81uk]

Given the timing, I’d be surprised if it weren’t specifically designed to throw out ‘we have no money’ messaging to justify the large increases in council tax that are about to be agreed by councils. It’ll go down a bit less badly if they then say ‘but we’ll keep travel passes’.

Four London councils in particular (alongside Windsor & Maidenhead outside the capital) will be raising taxes by very large %s, having been given permission (/orders) by government to do so.

London Council tax is already a lot lower than a lot of the rest of the country so I don't see an issue with large increases. I found it quite a shock moving out to Essex and the increase in council tax compared to a London borough.

I may be in the minority, but actually, as a holder of the Over 60s Oyster card and not far off the bus pass, I think limiting the free element to buses is not unreasonable.

What I would do is make the Tube and Rail element a reduced (say child) fare.

More radically, the Over 60s card could become half fare on both train and bus.

I would expect this change to result in (modest) increase in car use and some journeys not made, but the cost of both passes is quite a lot per head in financially stretched times.

I agree it would be reasonable to change the over 60s entitlement, as others have noted when it first started the free bus pass age was lower so TfL was just covering a shorter gap. Don't see an issue with changing the over 60s to reduced fares and then free after 67 with freedom pass.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Many thanks to everyone for their comprehensive and interesting responses. Yes, I'm aware that this is probably a bit of political kite-flying. Still, it's very disquieting if you've got used to having a free pass on the trains for the past six years and were looking forward to the same for the next few years as retirement possibly looms. I take peoples' point about rail not being offered in other places' over 66s free travel scheme but as I said, London is a special case. Buses are just not a serious proposition for journeys to and from the centre whereas in, say, Manchester or Birmingham, they are the preferred option for many people.

Not sure I would like to have to fiddle about paying half fares. I would be concerned about anything that removed the element of spontaneity, just being able to go into London on a whim (provided it's after 9.30 on a weekday, of course). So should anyone with any interest in the economy of central London - think of how much we old gits spend in pubs, coffeeshops, shops and museums when we're there, especially bearing in mind that those who are retired could well be spending at less busy times of the day and week.

At the moment, cycling into London is an option for me, and I do do it if i need to travel before 9.30am. But as age advances, that may not be possible physically and also my appetite for grappling with London traffic is fast diminishing.

 

[Stephen42]

Would this not have the effect, then, of costing TfL and the TOCs most of that £100 million, assuming most holders do not subsequently switch to buying rail / Underground tickets?

The settlement is based on trying to restore TfL and non-TfL owned TOCs to the position they would have been if the passes didn't exist. Instead of the journey cost it's discounted to factor in that not all travel would take place if it wasn't free to the pass holder. £100 million is roughly £100 per pass which isn't a lot of trips.

Well such a move, as unpopular as it may be, would in fact level up the pass availability to match those older person passes issued by councils in the provences.

As example: older person pass holders in say Twyford, Berkshire can't use their passes on the Elizabeth line so why does the reverse apply for those passes issued by London Councils and valid right out into Berkshire?

As the London Councils are paying for any of their residents who do go to Twyford or Reading where those councils don't pay TfL for their residents to be able to travel on their services.

The validity along the entire Elizabeth line is a primary legislation thing. The Greater London Authority Act 1999 section 243 requires all railway services are treated the same for freedom pass validity. To remove Twyford from the area of validity requires at a minimum removing all Elizabeth line and Overground service validity. It's not ideal, but it's unlikely to be a legislative priority and won't make much of a saving.

 

[Haywain]

as I said, London is a special case.

London is a region and it seems that you are choosing to ignore that your local town centre (based on your location of Purley) - the thing that most of the country has for shopping and entertainment - isn’t central London but Croydon.

 

[sprunt]

How would this be implemented? There’s no credit function on the ENCTS passes and scanning two cards would increase the time it takes for holders to pass through the ticket gates.

Sorry, I don't understand this - why would there be a need to scan two cards? Surely you'd just scan whatever payment card you were using to pay for the train rather than scanning the Freedom Pass?

The London mayor is up for election 7 May, so mayors policies could all change.

No, the next mayoral election isn't until 2028,