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In a properly run national railway network, effort and expense should be directed to keep lines open in bad weather, as NS are trying to do. Their forecast for Goretti is heavy snow followed by freezing rain followed by low temps.......so just as, or perhaps even more challenging.
Despite the introduction of a form of privatisation into the Dutch rail network, NS haven't lost the sense of social responsibility that is required to operate a national rail service.
That social responsibility has all but disappeared from TOCs in the UK since privatisation, apart from a few heroic tales you hear of remote lines in Wales and Scotland being kept running in bad weather to maintain access to remote communities.
That social responsibility has all but disappeared from TOCs in the UK since privatisation, apart from a few heroic tales you hear of remote lines in Wales and Scotland being kept running in bad weather to maintain access to remote communities.
I can't comment on Scotland, but the Cambrian is a very special little operation in that kind of way. Machynlleth has all the feel of "Oh Dr Beeching" without the feeling of it being likely to close next week - it's all quite small, friendly and when things go wrong it all pulls together to make things work regardless of whether it might involve several organisations. On the other hand, if a foot of snow was to be dumped on it overnight I suspect it'd not be running in the morning.
In a properly run national railway network, effort and expense should be directed to keep lines open in bad weather, as NS are trying to do. Their forecast for Goretti is heavy snow followed by freezing rain followed by low temps.......so just as, or perhaps even more challenging.
Despite the introduction of a form of privatisation into the Dutch rail network, NS haven't lost the sense of social responsibility that is required to operate a national rail service.
That social responsibility has all but disappeared from TOCs in the UK since privatisation, apart from a few heroic tales you hear of remote lines in Wales and Scotland being kept running in bad weather.
For me it's also a part of ruining the modal shift to rail. Is the weather bad, absolutely, but you can't just give up. If you work just east of Guide Bridge and work in Manchester then your only option of getting home or to work is a bus, taxi (is that sustainable long term?) or driving. At which point it becomes "why am I even bothering with the train in the first place when I can just put up with the car, car parking and some winter tyres".
If they're lucky their work might be sympathetic; if they are not then you could be losing a day's pay or worse purely because the public transport network has decided to shut down, which drives people to seek out (more reliable) alternatives like driving which while they might not fare much better atleast has a better chance for the costs involved.
For me it's also a part of ruining the modal shift to rail. Is the weather bad, absolutely, but you can't just give up. If you work just east of Guide Bridge and work in Manchester then your only option of getting home or to work is a bus, taxi (is that sustainable long term?) or driving. At which point it becomes "why am I even bothering with the train in the first place when I can just have a car and some winter tyres". If they're lucky their work might be sympathetic; if they are not then you could be losing a day's pay or worse purely because the public transport network has decided to shut down.
Fortunately there is a decent selection of mostly Bee Network operated bus services between Glossop and places west (or north) of Guide Bridge where a train can be picked up, though I suspect they too are likely to be disrupted once they start sliding sideways down the rather steep hill from Mottram towards Dinting Vale. Hyde Bus Station and Ashton/Stalybridge are your main options though I wouldn't like to say which is more likely to be severely disrupted, it'll depend where exactly the snow falls. There even used to be a Manchester-Glossop bus service a while back though that's long gone.
One thing that has become apparent is that while service buses are two/three quid a pop (still £2 in Greater Manchester) the railway doesn't feel it needs to organise acceptance or dedicated RRBs because it's only two/three quid and most people won't be bothered about that.
For me it's also a part of ruining the modal shift to rail. Is the weather bad, absolutely, but you can't just give up. If you work just east of Guide Bridge and work in Manchester then your only option of getting home or to work is a bus, taxi (is that sustainable long term?) or driving. At which point it becomes "why am I even bothering with the train in the first place when I can just put up with the car, car parking and some winter tyres". If they're lucky their work might be sympathetic; if they are not then you could be losing a day's pay or worse purely because the public transport network has decided to shut down which vastly makes people seek out alternatives like driving which while they might not fare much better atleast has a better chance for the costs involved.
I couldn't agree more with this sentiment. The alternatives to the private car have to be as convenient and reliable as they can possibly be to induce modal shift and re-build confidence in public transport. The Dutch are absolutely light years ahead of us in this regard, but Dutch v UK transport policy is a whole other thread!
Fortunately there is a decent selection of mostly Bee Network operated bus services between Glossop and places west (or north) of Guide Bridge where a train can be picked up, though I suspect they too are likely to be disrupted once they start sliding sideways down the rather steep hill from Mottram towards Dinting Vale.
One thing that has become apparent is that while service buses are two/three quid a pop (still £2 in Greater Manchester) the railway doesn't feel it needs to organise acceptance or dedicated RRBs because it's only two/three quid and most people won't be bothered about that.
Of course, it would be extra helpful if ticket acceptance could be given on Bee Network at a minimum, especially if they're supposed to be under the same banner soon.
It was merely an example of even small but long term hits to people's journeys like this will just make them tired of things and it makes the alternatives of driving a much better prospect. The costs of running a car might be a pain but you have control over driving and the times you turn out more so than a train, and it usually comes down to choosing between one or the other in a train season ticket or paying for the costs of driving.
No services will run between Sheffield and Manchester all day on Friday 9th January.
Due to the weather conditions, there will be no rail replacement buses running between Manchester Piccadilly and Sheffield in both directions.
They don't yet know what the weather conditions will be on Friday. Most people will remember previous occasions when forecast conditions didn't actually materialise.
Even if the forecast conditions do materialise, Snake will most likely be closed, Woodhead possibly but the amber warning does not cover the M62 crossing and as far as I can see no mention of any cancellations on the Leeds - Manchester trans pennine rail line either.
I couldn't agree more with this sentiment. The alternatives to the private car have to be as convenient and reliable as they can possibly be to induce modal shift and re-build confidence in public transport. The Dutch are absolutely light years ahead of us in this regard, but Dutch v UK transport policy is a whole other thread!
It would be an interesting thread. I've seen it a few times as a story told by people, they move near a station because it has frequent direct service to X, then it turns out the service is poor, and they put up with the car instead because they have to be on-time at work, events etc. It becomes a repetitive cycle eventually because less people take trains -> tickets have to be more expensive and costs are higher -> repeat.
NS is far from perfect, and you could find areas where the UK approach might be better. However, trains in this country need to be viewed as a social necessity and to compete with the alternatives rather than just being a 'please use us' add-on for those who have the luxury to choose between it and driving.
They don't yet know what the weather conditions will be on Friday. Most people will remember previous occasions when forecast conditions didn't actually materialise.
Even if the forecast conditions do materialise, Snake will most likely be closed, Woodhead possibly but the amber warning does not cover the M62 crossing and as far as I can see no mention of any cancellations on the Leeds - Manchester trans pennine rail line either.
This is going from memory, but the lie of the land on the Hope Valley and North TPE is rather different. The North TPE line is mostly higher up above the towns it passes through cut into the side of the hills, whereas the Hope Valley runs along the valley bottom near to various watercourses. I'd be inclined to think that means the Hope Valley, even once the snow is ploughed out of the way, might thus be more susceptible to flooding and landslips caused by the melting of the snow.
It would be an interesting thread. I've seen it a few times as a story told by people, they move near a station because it has frequent direct service to X, then it turns out the service is poor, and they put up with the car instead because they have to be on-time at work, events etc. It becomes a repetitive cycle eventually because less people take trains -> tickets have to be more expensive and costs are higher -> repeat
A lot of it is down to planning, which the Dutch are world champions at! Land use planning, and the planning of transport provision. The Dutch produced their visionary ABC planning policies back in the 80s, subtitled "the right land use in the right place", setting out how sustainable transport could be maximised, and housing and employment densities increased around nodes of high PT accessibility. Look at Sloterdijk for example. Or the incredible "bicycle town" Houten, which is a sustainable gem. But we're wandering a wee bit off topic here, so we'd better get back to sneeuw!
This is going from memory, but the lie of the land on the Hope Valley and North TPE is rather different. The North TPE line is mostly higher up above the towns it passes through cut into the side of the hills, whereas the Hope Valley runs along the valley bottom near to various watercourses. I'd be inclined to think that means the Hope Valley, even once the snow is ploughed out of the way, might thus be more susceptible to flooding and landslips caused by the melting of the snow.
My point was more that the North road and rail routes are not in the Amber area so why couldn't replacement road transport go via the M62 and/or ticket acceptance be put in place.
My point was more that the North road and rail routes are not in the Amber area so why couldn't replacement road transport go via the M62 and/or ticket acceptance be put in place.
There might be staff who disagree, but as I note above I'd say the standard cancellation acceptance for DfTO TOCs would seem to apply. If your train is cancelled you can use the next train or a train departing up to 2 hours before/after the one you intended to take in order to complete your journey, operated by any of the four DfTO TOCs (though obviously Southeastern isn't going to be much use). It says nothing about permitted routes or fare routeings. As such, if you rock up at Manchester Piccadilly headed for Sheffield, on which all trains are cancelled, that "rule" would to me say you can go via Huddersfield and Leeds regardless provided you've already got a ticket, as that is the only way in which a train is available departing within two hours of the booked train.
It might not be the intended interpretation, of course, but I think it has enough legs that I would try it, though as ever if told to buy another ticket it's best to buy it and reclaim later, and it's better to have a Penalty Fare than a prosecution writeup because the former is easier to resolve having a formal appeals process that doesn't involve a day in Court.
Another option would be to ask to be rerouted via Huddersfield under the PRO (forget what it stands for, sorry), though as ever finding a booking office that will do that is going to be quite challenging.
You do get things like that in the UK but not everywhere. For example there is the south WCML "emergency two track timetable" which removes the Tring semifasts and one of each of Manchester and Birmingham to thin things out a bit. You also sometimes break things at Northampton where there's a problem one side of it to prevent knock-on, so the service on the unaffected side can continue per the timetable and the other side can be a little more ad-hoc.
Not to mention Key Route Strategy plans which will be in place, mandating certain routes are ‘locked’ to a certain position to prevent numerous weather related points failures. This in itself will knock out some services no doubt.
Just on this specifically - many employers do indeed grant leniency in such circumstances. Whenever there is a weather warning, my partner's employer sends round an email about not needing to come in.
Obviously some jobs it's easier than others to take this approach, but it is actually a sensible thing to do from an employer's H&S point of view.
A bugbear of mine has arisen in that there are a dozen different disruption notices on National Rail Enquiries for the weather, one for each TOC rather than one for each line of route affected. When will we get past this Balkanisation?
My point was more that the North road and rail routes are not in the Amber area so why couldn't replacement road transport go via the M62 and/or ticket acceptance be put in place.
The yellow warning has the same impacts as the Amber - just a lower likelihood of it happening. If it happens the M62 is fu’kd! The problem is the forecast modelling is too marginal to rule it out!
How many independent plough pairs are there given two pairs are patrolling the north of Scotland ?
A bugbear of mine has arisen in that there are a dozen different disruption notices on National Rail Enquiries for the weather, one for each TOC rather than one for each line of route affected. When will we get past this Balkanisation?
And since the incredibly awful 'redesign' of a few years back, every single one of these notices that you may need to read has to be opened in a new page rather than just expanding a section. It is truly appalling UI.
I'm still surprised no-one is talking much about Cornwall. Pretty every model for later today now has wind gusts of at least 70mph in the evening for parts of Cornwall - eg. the Met Office currently has a forecast for 73mph gusts at 2000 in Truro - but all that is said on NRE about GWR is 'the full impact has not yet been confirmed' and nothing at all on GWR's site.
Just on this specifically - many employers do indeed grant leniency in such circumstances. Whenever there is a weather warning, my partner's employer sends round an email about not needing to come in.
Obviously some jobs it's easier than others to take this approach, but it is actually a sensible thing to do from an employer's H&S point of view.
Sadly, though, those on lower paid jobs, hourly contracts etc who tend to truly rely on public transport the most, tend to be those who benefit least from employer leniency. For many baristas, waiters, cleaners etc, not turning in for any reason will mean a day without pay, being marked awol etc.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
I think a lot of posters are missing the fact that these cancellations are a result of network rail closing the route not just at the whims of the TOC.
That's will at least in part he because network rail can't guarantee an ability to continue to provide incident response capability if weather is as bad as forecast. Coupled with weather conditions that make it more likely that an incident requiring that response will be required.
So I'm sure with a bit of understanding they can see why taking steps to prevent a situation where a train full of people is stranded for a protracted period in the middle of nowhere during a storm is probably actually quite sensible.
The thing is, there are plenty of steps that could be taken between running a full timetable and cancelling everything - its precisely why the rule book is full of degraded working procedures to cover these types of event.
So to give an alternative approach, I'd argue the following would be workable without upsetting people:
Prior notice:
TOCs/national rail advise owing to severe weather forecast, train service will likely be heavily disrupted and possibly suspended between (time x) and (time y). Passengers should avoid travel in this window but if your journey is absolutely essential, expect disruption.
On the day:
Normal service runs until the point that things deteriorate (for snowfall, 6 inches seems a reasonable cut off given that 8 inches is the point the rules dictate things need to stop). At this point, pre-planned alterations kick in until such a point that service can resume. Taking the hope valley as an example, this could mean:
TPE divert via Huddersfield where route knowledge permits, otherwise stable unit at Sheffield/MCO bay and crew pick up backworkings.
EMR cut short at Sheffield and crew pick up back workings/step up. Any trapped units stable at Lime Street (via back workings if needs be) and crew pass back via Leeds/Crewe. Likely to cause some knock on traincrew delay but conversely may have a unit well positioned to aid service recovery the following am.
NT spin at New Mills South Jn/Chinley Jn stepping up as appropriate. Trapped units stable at Sheffield until service resumes/if necessary strength the diagram(s) in the evening that runs a set Sheffield - NH via the Calder Valley (one, possibly two 195 diagrams run in service to Leeds then form a late Calder Valley as a unit swap). Displaced crew pass via TPE/via Leeds as appropriate.
If we're talking about signal failures, or a signaller failing to turn in, nothing precludes the above contingency plan, and theres degraded working rules in place to deal with such an issue.
If we're talking about icicles in Totley tunnel, again, nothing precludes the above arrangements taking place and there's no reason a train should be trapped in such circumstances if the situation is managed and monitored.
Yes, this would cause delay but once again we go back to the pre-warning from the operators, people have had expectations tempered, but the railway is doing its best to deliver for its users.
(I'm also well aware MROC will likely have something similar to the above plan already in place and ready to be deployed). Also, to move into ideal-world/it'll all be fixed by GBR territory - if units were more common user than TOC specific, you could even pop 158s on TPE services to get the sets back home, or use TPE crew to route conduct EMR drivers etc (oh how wonderful things could be!).
People understand weather disruption, but there is less sympathy for significant disruption because of possible weather.
Edit: The more I think about this, the more ridiculous it feels that I even had to post this - given this is how the railways have functioned until around just after Covid. Essentially, if you've read this far - that's 5 minutes of someone who's worked in the industry for well over a decade stating the bl**dy obvious and explaining how things used to be done and logically, probably should be done. I apologise for those 5 minutes of your life you're not getting back. Roll on the responses that will tell me why this is impossible etc etc, when anyone who used or worked on the railway pre-2020 will remember this is exactly how it was always done and somehow, with a little bit of flexibility and maybe an hour or two of overtime, we coped just fine.
And since the incredibly awful 'redesign' of a few years back, every single one of these notices that you may need to read has to be opened in a new page rather than just expanding a section. It is truly appalling UI.
I'm still surprised no-one is talking much about Cornwall. Pretty every model for later today now has wind gusts of at least 70mph in the evening for parts of Cornwall - eg. the Met Office currently has a forecast for 73mph gusts at 2000 in Truro - but all that is said on NRE about GWR is 'the full impact has not yet been confirmed' and nothing at all on GWR's site.
According to Journey Check, after 18:00 trains canceled in Cornwall on Falmouth,Newquay, and Gunnislake branches, (Looe is already canceled due to flooding), and also Okehampton branch.
Sadly, though, those on lower paid jobs, hourly contracts etc who tend to truly rely on public transport the most, tend to be those who benefit least from employer leniency. For many baristas, waiters, cleaners etc, not turning in for any reason will mean a day without pay, being marked awol etc.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
From my point of view the criticism is pointed towards both.
I don't deny the reason in your arguement and its a safe approach - I just feel the industry could be more ambitious whilst still being safe enough.
Honestly, I don't feel this arguement washes so much - lots of people do understand such situations.
The thing is, there are plenty of steps that could be taken between running a full timetable and cancelling everything - its precisely why the rule book is full of degraded working procedures to cover these types of event.
So to give an alternative approach, I'd argue the following would be workable without upsetting people:
Prior notice:
TOCs/national rail advise owing to severe weather forecast, train service will likely be heavily disrupted and possibly suspended between (time x) and (time y). Passengers should avoid travel in this window but if your journey is absolutely essential, expect disruption.
On the day:
Normal service runs until the point that things deteriorate (for snowfall, 6 inches seems a reasonable cut off given that 8 inches is the point the rules dictate things need to stop). At this point, pre-planned alterations kick in until such a point that service can resume. Taking the hope valley as an example, this could mean:
TPE divert via Huddersfield where route knowledge permits, otherwise stable unit at Sheffield/MCO bay and crew pick up backworkings.
EMR cut short at Sheffield and crew pick up back workings/step up. Any trapped units stable at Lime Street (via back workings if needs be) and crew pass back via Leeds/Crewe. Likely to cause some knock on traincrew delay but conversely may have a unit well positioned to aid service recovery the following am.
NT spin at New Mills South Jn/Chinley Jn stepping up as appropriate. Trapped units stable at Sheffield until service resumes/if necessary strength the diagram(s) in the evening that runs a set Sheffield - NH via the Calder Valley (one, possibly two 195 diagrams run in service to Leeds then form a late Calder Valley as a unit swap). Displaced crew pass via TPE/via Leeds as appropriate.
If we're talking about signal failures, or a signaller failing to turn in, nothing precludes the above contingency plan, and theres degraded working rules in place to deal with such an issue.
If we're talking about icicles in Totley tunnel, again, nothing precludes the above arrangements taking place and there's no reason a train should be trapped in such circumstances if the situation is managed and monitored.
Yes, this would cause delay but once again we go back to the pre-warning from the operators, people have had expectations tempered, but the railway is doing its best to deliver for its users.
(I'm also well aware MROC will likely have something similar to the above plan already in place and ready to be deployed). Also, to move into ideal-world/it'll all be fixed by GBR territory - if units were more common user than TOC specific, you could even pop 158s on TPE services to get the sets back home, or use TPE crew to route conduct EMR drivers etc (oh how wonderful things could be!).
People understand weather disruption, but there is less sympathy for significant disruption because of possible weather.
Edit: The more I think about this, the more ridiculous it feels that I even had to post this - given this is how the railways have functioned until around just after Covid. Essentially, if you've read this far - that's 5 minutes of someone who's worked in the industry for well over a decade stating the bl**dy obvious and explaining how things used to be done and logically, probably should be done. I apologise for those 5 minutes of your life you're not getting back. Roll on the responses that will tell me why this is impossible etc etc, when anyone who used or worked on the railway pre-2020 will remember this is exactly how it was always done and somehow, with a little bit of flexibility and maybe an hour or two of overtime, we coped just fine.
And before a nearly 3 year dispute in which traincrew were widely pilloried and vilified and any remaining goodwill within the industry to "go the extra mile" was burnt away by political dogma...I said at the time, once those working relationships are destroyed they won't ever be rebuilt, and sadly the passenger suffers as a result.
One factor that rarely gets mentioned with regards to snow etc - nowadays very few staff live on the doorstep of their work location, and as such may also experience difficulties in actually getting to work to operate any sort of service in the first place.
GWR are doing this, I could be completely wrong, but I doubt it will be as bad as they say
“Storm Goretti is forecast to arrive from the Atlantic Ocean and hit the UK later bring strong winds and heavy precipitation. As the storm moves inland north of the M4 corridor the rain is forecast to turn to snow which could cause disruption
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What are we doing about it?
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In anticipation of the snow train services maybe amended. As it currently stands there will be no trains west of Great Malvern after 15:00 and no trains west of Oxford after 18:00. This could change as the storm moves closer and the forecast changes so please keep up to date by checking this line problem and journey planners for live information.”
I can't comment on Scotland, but the Cambrian is a very special little operation in that kind of way. Machynlleth has all the feel of "Oh Dr Beeching" without the feeling of it being likely to close next week - it's all quite small, friendly and when things go wrong it all pulls together to make things work regardless of whether it might involve several organisations.
In a properly run national railway network, effort and expense should be directed to keep lines open in bad weather, as NS are trying to do. Their forecast for Goretti is heavy snow followed by freezing rain followed by low temps.......so just as, or perhaps even more challenging.
Despite the introduction of a form of privatisation into the Dutch rail network, NS haven't lost the sense of social responsibility that is required to operate a national rail service.
That social responsibility has all but disappeared from TOCs in the UK since privatisation, apart from a few heroic tales you hear of remote lines in Wales and Scotland being kept running in bad weather to maintain access to remote communities.
Apparantly Northern wanted to delay 'throwing the towel in' until a more accurate weather forecast today, partucularly on Hadfield/Glossop, but their hands were tied by Network Rail, and road transport providers who couldnt guarantee MOM coverage, buses, taxis (even to get crews back to depot) etc in the event of units getting stranded. If the worst predictions come true its likely roads will be impassable.
Apparantly Northern wanted to delay 'throwing the towel in' until a more accurate weather forecast today, partucularly on Hadfield/Glossop, but their hands were tied by Network Rail
Very probably. We saw the same a couple of weeks ago in Cumbria, with Network Rail shutting everything despite the fact that a) weather forecast wasn’t actually that bad and b) the weather that arrived was not as bad as forecast.
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