Merseyrail 777 introduction

[jamesst]

In Merseytravel's post-mortem report on the 777 issues last winter, the proposed solution to the shutdowns due to third rail icing was to run trains during the night to keep the third rail clear. I wondered on reading that who they were going to get to drive them, which is presumably the reason why the issues have returned this weekend.

Given the sleet and hail have really hit tonight (the M57 between Switch Island and Huyton was terrible earlier this evening - there was an overturned car on the north-bound sliproad at Prescot as well), I expect there's going to be issues in the morning too.

Theres always been route proving trains run during the night during cold spells, its nothing new.
If it shows then freezes at 6pm that'll cause problems, doesnt matter when it is

 

[M28361M]

There is a VST path showing on Realtime Trains for a 3S91 Bootle Jn-Sandhills covering most of the network. I assume this is an overnight de-icer.

Realtime Trains | 3S91 0004 Bootle Jn to Sandhills | 05/01/2026

Real-time train running information for 3S91 0004 departure from Bootle Jn to Sandhills on 05/01/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[karlbbb]

It probably also helps that the air is extremely dry at the moment (dew point is down in the -5°C region), though that will change tomorrow with the dew point rising back up to 2°C meaning much more humid air and snow forecast around the start of service.

 

[M28361M]

Looks like a broken down train at Hooton has disrupted the Chester and Ellesmere Port line since about 8am.

5C08 departed Hooton at 0740 and hasn’t reported since and is showing on OpenTrainTimes map near the junction. I assume it is the culprit.

Realtime Trains | 5C08 0732½ Hooton to Chester | 05/01/2026

Real-time train running information for 5C08 0732½ departure from Hooton to Chester on 05/01/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

In other news, 777038 has suffered a graffiti attack. Seen at Liverpool Central as part of a Southport 8-car this morning.

 

[Liverpool 507]

Looks like a broken down train at Hooton has disrupted the Chester and Ellesmere Port line since about 8am.

5C08 departed Hooton at 0740 and hasn’t reported since and is showing on OpenTrainTimes map near the junction. I assume it is the culprit.

Realtime Trains | 5C08 0732½ Hooton to Chester | 05/01/2026

Real-time train running information for 5C08 0732½ departure from Hooton to Chester on 05/01/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

In other news, 777038 has suffered a graffiti attack. Seen at Liverpool Central as part of a Southport 8-car this morning.

It has spent the past week on Southport services and has been in and out of the sidings there. No doubt done there.

Nearly all stabling (not in platforms) is done in the main holding sidings. The Wallside siding doesn’t seem to get any use much now.

 

[karlbbb]

Conditions are very icy this morning, and that's being reflected in near-chaos already. Two trains stuck on their way to Hunts Cross which has then ensnared the de-icing train behind them.

EDIT: Just to say, I understand this is entirely a physics problem, not a 777 problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Conditions are very icy this morning, and that's being reflected in near-chaos already. Two trains stuck on their way to Hunts Cross which has then ensnared the de-icing train behind them.

EDIT: Just to say, I understand this is entirely a physics problem, not a 777 problem.

Can they not be shifted by raising the shoes and moving them at low speed using the shunt batteries? Or have the shoes welded themselves to the rail, something the modern software was meant to prevent?

 

[Polarbear]

Merseyrail is definitely not having a good day today. Power supply problems between New Brighton & Wallasey, multiple issues on the Northern lines & also south of Rock Ferry on the Wirral.

The weather is certainly better than it was yesterday, so I’m not sure whether some of these issues may be down to the 777’s?

 

[karlbbb]

Merseyrail is definitely not having a good day today. Power supply problems between New Brighton & Wallasey, multiple issues on the Northern lines & also south of Rock Ferry on the Wirral.

The weather is certainly better than it was yesterday, so I’m not sure whether some of these issues may be down to the 777’s?

The weather may appear better but there has been a magnitude more icing across a lot of the region, with some residential roads entirely iced leading to a number of bumps and accidents. I can't imagine that the cold rails and power rail fared much differently.

 

[a_c_skinner]

BBC NW Tonight is saying (not on www so no link) that the old trains had pickup shoes that scraped the conductor rail but the new trains had shoes that hovered above the rail. Hence the problem. This can't be true but is there something they could have misunderstood about the rail/shoe interface?

 

[jamesst]

BBC NW Tonight is saying (not on www so no link) that the old trains had pickup shoes that scraped the conductor rail but the new trains had shoes that hovered above the rail. Hence the problem. This can't be true but is there something they could have misunderstood about the rail/shoe interface?

Nope.
The old trains had block shoes that would basically push along the live rail. They could cope with a bit of ice but it was renowned for causing flashovers and/or MA failures leading to substantial and expensive repair.

The 777s have a thinner shoe that pretty much glides along the live rail. Not hovering as they have to make contact. The main difference is if the 777s detect a loss of current or have issues drawing current the shoes will automatically lift to avoid flashovers etc. Not ideal for service running in really poor weather but its avoiding costly damage that could put the unit out of service for a substantial time.

 

[Skie]

I did chortle when she said “the new trains hover above the track”

 

[Pacef8]

I would presume the way merseyrail evaluate the delay repay means its still economical to cancel trains rather than have them burn out their hot shoes . I wonder how a similar service such as the one in Glasgow compares when coping with snow ice rain leaves .

 

[jamesst]

I would presume the way merseyrail evaluate the delay repay means its still economical to cancel trains rather than have them burn out their hot shoes . I wonder how a similar service such as the one in Glasgow compares when coping with snow ice rain leaves .

Well the Glasgow subway has been suspended due to an icy live rail, I cant think of anything else up there that isn't overheads or diesel

 

[Northerngirl]

Is the Chicago metro bottom contact, because i know they seem fine in the weather

 

[a_c_skinner]

Nope.
The old trains had block shoes that would basically push along the live rail. They could cope with a bit of ice but it was renowned for causing flashovers and/or MA failures leading to substantial and expensive repair.

The 777s have a thinner shoe that pretty much glides along the live rail. Not hovering as they have to make contact. The main difference is if the 777s detect a loss of current or have issues drawing current the shoes will automatically lift to avoid flashovers etc. Not ideal for service running in really poor weather but its avoiding costly damage that could put the unit out of service for a substantial time.

Thank you. As it was the BBC I assumed it wasn't totally made up! I did know you need contact for the electricity to flow of course!

 

[AndrewE]

Well the Glasgow subway has been suspended due to an icy live rail, I cant think of anything else up there that isn't overheads or diesel

That's astonishing, isn't the subway completely underground?

 

[jamesst]

That's astonishing, isn't the subway completely underground?

Thats what i thought! It mentioned the depot so im assuming thats above ground? I'm not at all familiar with it im afraid

 

[M28361M]

BBC NW Tonight is saying (not on www so no link) that the old trains had pickup shoes that scraped the conductor rail but the new trains had shoes that hovered above the rail. Hence the problem. This can't be true but is there something they could have misunderstood about the rail/shoe interface?

They have possibly picked this up from the winter resilience review which was prepared in response to the serious disruption which occurred last year. I think the reference to hovering above the rail is perhaps from this bit quoted below, which states that the shoes will lift automatically if the train experiences difficulty. It has obviously got a bit lost in translation.

This tried and tested approach was largely based on what was known about how Merseyrail’s 507/8 units would behave in icy conditions. While not their primary purpose, their fixed and heavy-duty cast-iron conductor shoe had the by-product of generally clearing ice loosened by the anti-icing agent. By the winter of 2024/25, however, the 507/8s had been fully replaced by an entire fleet of new state-of-the-art 777 units which are designed to act in a different way.

According to their manufacturer Stadler, if the conductor shoes have difficulty drawing power from the third rail for greater than 15 minutes (and their main reservoir pressure falls below 5.5 bar), they will ‘lift up’ from the third rail in order to protect their electrical systems from serious damage. This means that the shoes would no longer be in contact with the third rail and, therefore, the unit would not be able to move until that contact was restored. This is what happened on 9th January. The 507/8s, on the other hand, would generally attempt to ‘plough on’ under pretty much all circumstances, albeit with individual trains sometimes sustaining serious damage which then required them to be withdrawn for a significant time for repair.

 

[danbarjon]

Today was fun on the Headbolt Lane line, arrived at the station at 07:40 and didn’t get a train until 08:20. Some people ended up grouping up to get taxis, I stuck it out and then we travelled at roughly no more than 20-30mph for the whole trip. Very overcrowded. See this sort of situation would have been okay if we had an explanation but we didn’t? We watched 4 trains that were “on time” and then they disappeared at their scheduled time off the departure boards at HBL…

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Thats what I thought! It mentioned the depot so I'm assuming that's above ground? I'm not at all familiar with it I'm afraid

Broomloan is above ground, yes.

 

[Prime586]

Today was fun on the Headbolt Lane line, arrived at the station at 07:40 and didn’t get a train until 08:20. Some people ended up grouping up to get taxis, I stuck it out and then we travelled at roughly no more than 20-30mph for the whole trip. Very overcrowded. See this sort of situation would have been okay if we had an explanation but we didn’t? We watched 4 trains that were “on time” and then they disappeared at their scheduled time off the departure boards at HBL…

It's possible the low speed was due to the batteries having degraded performance due to the cold temperature, and third rail icing reducing the ability to recharge them.

 

[danbarjon]

It's possible the low speed was due to the batteries having degraded performance due to the cold temperature, and third rail icing reducing the ability to recharge them.

I fully understand that reasoning but we did not receive this information. Which sadly but also unexpectedly caused anger and frustration.

 

[azzarazza]

Today was fun on the Headbolt Lane line, arrived at the station at 07:40 and didn’t get a train until 08:20. Some people ended up grouping up to get taxis, I stuck it out and then we travelled at roughly no more than 20-30mph for the whole trip. Very overcrowded. See this sort of situation would have been okay if we had an explanation but we didn’t? We watched 4 trains that were “on time” and then they disappeared at their scheduled time off the departure boards at HBL…

Might be slightly off topic but I feel this can be where the frustration comes from. I accept third-rail will always struggle with the cold and things go wrong. But when the website says trains will start running at a certain time and your stood on a freezing station watching 'on-time' trains never arrive then disappear off the board it's a nightmare. They do seem better this year at trying to communicate the issues but perhaps more could be done. (I suppose the alternative is like some TOCs who simply say DO NOT TRAVEL so at least Merseyrail are trying to get things moving!)

 

[nilvaj395]

Could the situation be improved if there was more MPV's allocated to Merseyrail and in regards to 777's becoming stuck, could Merseyrail have kept rescue locomotives for this purpose? Wasn't it at one point Merseyrail owned 73's for bits and bobs? Purely speculative I know but I feel like dispatching a 777 that could be out on service as a rescue train is a bit excessive.

 

[jamesst]

Could the situation be improved if there was more MPV's allocated to Merseyrail and in regards to 777's becoming stuck, could Merseyrail have kept rescue locomotives for this purpose? Wasn't it at one point Merseyrail owned 73's for bits and bobs? Purely speculative I know but I feel like dispatching a 777 that could be out on service as a rescue train is a bit excessive.

I suppose more mpvs could make a difference but then you need the drivers to operate them of youre doing more trips.
The general rule for most tocs where a failure occurs is for the train behind to assist. You could in theory have a rescue locomotive instead but if a train is failed and blocked in by others as generally happens getting any locomotive to site isn't easy.

The only real way to avoid ice problems with third rail is to box it in or make it side contact, the costs would be very very high to achieve that.

 

[Pacef8]

I recall a number of 508s failed at chester in a previous cold snap and i think it ended up as a 12 carriage drag.

 

[M28361M]

There was an 18 coach train on January 18 2015, another very cold icy morning where multiple 507/8 units stalled on the south Wirral Lines. The rescue train picked up all the failed units, then ran to Chester and back to clear the line.

We're lucky to have video because there was a Branch Line Society railtour due to traverse the Merseyrail network that day, so a large number of enthusiasts were gathered at Hooton. Remarkably the tour still happened - the units for the tour were in the 18-car consist and were dropped off at Hooton on the way back. The tour departed Hooton two hours late but thanks to some fast reversals, shortening station stops, and missing out a few bits of track (much to the chagrin of the "red pen" crowd no doubt) it completed its journey on time. The Six Bells Junction website has more details.

The point is that 507/508 stock was not immune to ice and snow either.

 

[danbarjon]

Might be slightly off topic but I feel this can be where the frustration comes from. I accept third-rail will always struggle with the cold and things go wrong. But when the website says trains will start running at a certain time and your stood on a freezing station watching 'on-time' trains never arrive then disappear off the board it's a nightmare. They do seem better this year at trying to communicate the issues but perhaps more could be done. (I suppose the alternative is like some TOCs who simply say DO NOT TRAVEL so at least Merseyrail are trying to get things moving!)

Thanks for understanding mine and many others frustrations, I agree that Merseyrail are better than some TOCs but I really hope they get better with just a little bit of simple communication like saying delays or even cancelled as we would have known whether to get buses or not.

 

[Northerngirl]

There was an 18 coach train on January 18 2015, another very cold icy morning where multiple 507/8 units stalled on the south Wirral Lines. The rescue train picked up all the failed units, then ran to Chester and back to clear the line.

We're lucky to have video because there was a Branch Line Society railtour due to traverse the Merseyrail network that day, so a large number of enthusiasts were gathered at Hooton. Remarkably the tour still happened - the units for the tour were in the 18-car consist and were dropped off at Hooton on the way back. The tour departed Hooton two hours late but thanks to some fast reversals, shortening station stops, and missing out a few bits of track (much to the chagrin of the "red pen" crowd no doubt) it completed its journey on time. The Six Bells Junction website has more details.

The point is that 507/508 stock was not immune to ice and snow either.

I find it very hard to believe this would be done now, both because plugging them into eachother somehow causes problems, and because you need to get a bit of paper from each person on the team designed the seats to say that its safe to run