Could Northern Start Introducing 8 Car Workings On Busy Peak Time Services?

[Class 323 Fan]

Using the Automatic Selective Door Operation option on the class 331s, could 8 car trains run on the following routes:
Blackpool North To Manchester Airport
Liverpool Lime Street To Manchester Airport
Liverpool Lime Street To Wigan North Western
Liverpool Lime Street To Blackpool North

To increase capacity on these busy routes, if Northern took the 350/2, which are 4 car, that would be even more capacity. If Automatic Selective Door Operation is on these trains

What do you think?

 

[jayah]

Using the Automatic Selective Door Operation option on the class 331s, could 8 car trains run on the following routes:
Blackpool North To Manchester Airport
Liverpool Lime Street To Manchester Airport
Liverpool Lime Street To Wigan North Western
Liverpool Lime Street To Blackpool North

To increase capacity on these busy routes, if Northern took the 350/2, which are 4 car, that would be even more capacity. If Automatic Selective Door Operation is on these trains

What do you think?

It was always shortsighted to buy more 3 car EMU units. 4 cars (at least) have been standard in most of the SE north and south of the river for decades.

I understand the numbers to be 34x323 in service and 36x350/2 heading off lease.

Buying new units now, to see off Class 333s seems crazy when all the cash and production capacity will be tied up for another 10 years, just to get rid of Class 150-165, by 2035 if we are lucky.

 

[dodecahedron67]

8 carriages won't fit at the Airport or the platforms used at Lime Street for those services, so no. 8 carriages would also not be allowed on Chat Moss as a whole unit would be un-platformed at most stations, which is a no-no

 

[Class 323 Fan]

8 carriages won't fit at the Airport or the platforms used at Lime Street for those services, so no. 8 carriages would also not be allowed on Chat Moss as a whole unit would be un-platformed at most stations, which is a no-no

If services were extended to Crewe?

 

[dodecahedron67]

If services were extended to Crewe?

That doesn’t solve any of these issues

 

[cle]

Using the Automatic Selective Door Operation option on the class 331s, could 8 car trains run on the following routes:
Blackpool North To Manchester Airport
Liverpool Lime Street To Manchester Airport
Liverpool Lime Street To Wigan North Western
Liverpool Lime Street To Blackpool North

To increase capacity on these busy routes, if Northern took the 350/2, which are 4 car, that would be even more capacity. If Automatic Selective Door Operation is on these trains

What do you think?

They could really just order more 331s.

Which of these services could run at 6 cars (and needs to?) - I think it’s probably just Blackpool-Man Airport (ie Manc-Bolton-Preston)

But 4 car services could be well used throughout, as 319s provided. 6/7/8 cars might be overkill for a lot of the day, but perhaps not.

Liverpool-Wigan would be my next shout.

 

[Mgameing123]

8 carriages won't fit at the Airport or the platforms used at Lime Street for those services, so no. 8 carriages would also not be allowed on Chat Moss as a whole unit would be un-platformed at most stations, which is a no-no

How difficult of a challenge would it be to make the platforms longer?

 

[D365]

Using the ATSO on the class 331s, could 8 car trains run on the following routes:

What does ATSO mean?

 

[Class 323 Fan]

What does ATSO mean?

Meant to put ASDO, which is Automatic Door Operation if I remember right

 

[jfollows]

Meant to put ASDO, which is Automatic Door Operation if I remember right

Automatic Selective Door Operation
For example, from https://www.eke-electronics.com/automatic-selective-door-operation-asdo/

Automatic Selective Door Operation (ASDO) is a generic product designed to deliver safer and more efficient train operations through precise, individual door control. Instead of operating doors by coach or car, ASDO manages each door independently, so that only doors aligned with the platform are released.

This precision is particularly valuable at stations with shorter platforms, allowing passengers to step only onto safe areas.

ASDO also incorporates Correct Side Door Enabling (CSDE), activating only the doors on the side adjacent to the platform.

 

[Nottingham59]

8 carriages won't fit at the Airport or the platforms used at Lime Street for those services, so no. 8 carriages would also not be allowed on Chat Moss as a whole unit would be un-platformed at most stations, which is a no-no

I thought Airport platforms were 200m long?

 

[Kite159]

I presume a 4 coach 331 is longer than a 4 coach 350, because pairs of 350s used to run to the Airport when on TPE

 

[jfollows]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_331 says 4x331 is 94.75m

 

[Bletchleyite]

I presume a 4 coach 331 is longer than a 4 coach 350, because pairs of 350s used to run to the Airport when on TPE

Yes. A 4 car 331 is 96m (4x24m) ish whereas a 4 car 350 is 80m (4x20m) ish.

There are certainly services on which Northern could viably use 8.350 formations, though it would require timetable adjustments - the reason they seem unenthusiastic about 350s is primarily the slow door cycle, I believe.

 

[AndrewE]

Yes. A 4 car 331 is 96m (4x24m) ish whereas a 4 car 350 is 80m (4x20m) ish.

There are certainly services on which Northern could viably use 8.350 formations, though it would require timetable adjustments - the reason they seem unenthusiastic about 350s is primarily the slow door cycle, I believe.

Could there be any quick fix for this? If it is anything other than just the door activators maybe a software tweak or alteration to working methods could help?
(Given that some stock has driver door release it seems strange that in other areas the guard has to wait for their door to open, walk out across the platform to assure themselves that all the train is accommodated, walk back and then release the other doors - which presumably also work as slowly as the Guard's.)

 

[jfollows]

I thought Airport platforms were 200m long?

Yes. 196/197/200/201m (platforms 1 to 4 in order)
per https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional appendix full PDFs December 25/London North Western (North) Sectional Appendix December 2025.pdf

 

[3RDGEN]

Northern's new build program is based on reducing the number of fleets they have so why would they want another fleet now in the form of 350's? Also the 323's have recently been refurbished which would need to be repeated on the 350's along with fitment of ASDO for 8 car operation so more costs added to the large amount of training costs required to introduce them.

The new build program is also planned to replace the 323's, due to the introduction of ETCS, so will the 350's be a temporary fix or are they also going to have ETCS fitted for the long term? If they remain for the long term that goes against the plan to reduce fleet numbers, they can't interwork with any other Northern fleet and they don't have "level boarding" so why would Northern want them? If Northern can make a case for more EMU capacity the best option is the remaining off lease exWMT 323's as a stop gap until the new builds arrive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Northern's new build program is based on reducing the number of fleets they have so why would they want another fleet now in the form of 350's?

Because the first of the new build units entering service is likely ten years off.

Also the 323's have recently been refurbished which would need to be repeated on the 350's along with fitment of ASDO for 8 car operation so more costs added to the large amount of training costs required to introduce them.

Can Unit Deselect not be used?

 

[3RDGEN]

Because the first of the new build units entering service is likely ten years off.

The 323's are reportedly due for replacement in the early 2030's due to the ETCS rollout so maybe 6 or 7 years left, given the 350's would take 18 months or longer to roll out your only getting 5 years out of all the effort. If Phase 2 of the Northern new build plan gets cancelled then the 350's for 15-20 years maybe a worthwhile alternative.

 

[Class 323 Fan]

They could really just order more 331s.

Which of these services could run at 6 cars (and needs to?) - I think it’s probably just Blackpool-Man Airport (ie Manc-Bolton-Preston)

But 4 car services could be well used throughout, as 319s provided. 6/7/8 cars might be overkill for a lot of the day, but perhaps not.

Liverpool-Wigan would be my next shout.

No more new trains will come into service for at least another 5-6 years

 

[D365]

The 323's are reportedly due for replacement in the early 2030's due to the ETCS rollout so maybe 6 or 7 years left, given the 350's would take 18 months or longer to roll out your only getting 5 years out of all the effort. If Phase 2 of the Northern new build plan gets cancelled then the 350's for 15-20 years maybe a worthwhile alternative.

’Signals away’ on WCML (Preston and northwards) will not be as soon as early 2030s. So I don’t see why an interim EMU fleet will be needed unless Phase 2 is cancelled.

 

[Charlie978]

No more new trains will come into service for at least another 5-6 years

And even when they do it will be sprinter replacements so a EMU (323 or 350) replacement would be more than likely over a decade away.

 

[cle]

I could see the Brewery Turnback being able to offer an additional service - reinstating the Victoria-Preston 'shuttle' service seems most valuable - but it is capped at 6 cars length.

 

[30907]

Would it not be more helpful to run a 4th tph Liverpool-Wigan? And Manchester-Preston (assuming it could be pathed beyond Euxton Jn)?

 

[Kite159]

Would it not be more helpful to run a 4th tph Liverpool-Wigan? And Manchester-Preston (assuming it could be pathed beyond Euxton Jn)?

Is running 4tph Liverpool - Wigan possible with the 2 track section between Lime Street/Edge Hill - Roby, along with the TPE & trains towards Manchester?

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Probably would be helpful if Northern brought back the Liverpool - Warrington bank quay stoppers they ditched during covid, would probably help with some of the overcrowding between Earlestown & Huyton

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably would be helpful if Northern brought back the Liverpool - Warrington bank quay stoppers they ditched during covid, would probably help with some of the overcrowding between Earlestown & Huyton

This is certainly needed - 1tph is an absolute joke on an urban metro route not practically much different from the Merseyrail electric routes, and the path is there, Northern just can't be bothered to operate it/the DfT to fund it.

 

[Fokx]

Is running 4tph Liverpool - Wigan possible with the 2 track section between Lime Street/Edge Hill - Roby, along with the TPE & trains towards Manchester?

Probably would be helpful if Northern brought back the Liverpool - Warrington bank quay stoppers they ditched during covid, would probably help with some of the overcrowding between Earlestown & Huyton

Yes. As you mention the Liverpool to Warrington service is still missing do you could operate a Liverpool to Wigan via Earlestown on theory so long as there's a path available from Earlestown to Wigan NW.

This path is currently used by the morning and evening peak services

 

[Snow1964]

How difficult of a challenge would it be to make the platforms longer?

Living in South West London during the 10car platform lengthening 2016-17, there is a fairly standard kit of parts that can be used, some platforms were only extended about 15m, others nearer 45m long to a standard of around 206m (forget the exact length)

There were sections for embankments, cuttings, flat ground (even bits that need track slews like island at North Sheen. There were even road bridging sections to extend platforms over an A road as happened at Kingston.

Really the limiting factor for these was how much money was to be spent, in some cases the signal needed repositioning if end of platform had a signal.

The more expensive (and usually the limiting factor) is cost of altering terminus platforms, as extensions often need the junction to be moved and the associated works are lot more than unbolting a signal and remounting it few metres further on, along with moving the insulated joint for signalling sections (although sometimes enough spare not to need this)

 

[Mgameing123]

Living in South West London during the 10car platform lengthening 2016-17, there is a fairly standard kit of parts that can be used, some platforms were only extended about 15m, others nearer 45m long to a standard of around 206m (forget the exact length)

There were sections for embankments, cuttings, flat ground (even bits that need track slews like island at North Sheen. There were even road bridging sections to extend platforms over an A road as happened at Kingston.

Really the limiting factor for these was how much money was to be spent, in some cases the signal needed repositioning if end of platform had a signal.

The more expensive (and usually the limiting factor) is cost of altering terminus platforms, as extensions often need the junction to be moved and the associated works are lot more than unbolting a signal and remounting it few metres further on, along with moving the insulated joint for signalling sections (although sometimes enough spare not to need this)

So would it be possible to lengthen Northern platforms to allow 8 - 12 car running on the busiest routes?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So would it be possible to lengthen Northern platforms to allow 8 - 12 car running on the busiest routes?

Many platforms could be extended, yes, but not all. But don't forget that Northern mostly operates 23/24m vehicle units, so 12 car would be very long indeed - South East TOCs operating 12 car units are generally operating 20m vehicles.

However I'd probably look to address frequency first, as most Northern routes operate very low frequencies. For instance on the Manchester suburbans I'd be looking to go to 4tph from 1-2tph before going for extremely long trains. Though I think provision for 8 x 24m on Manchester-Blackpool (192m) probably is worthwhile - indeed if I was going for a standard non-South-East, non-InterCity platform length 200m would probably be it, which would also open up the possibility of the post modernisation TPE fleet being 200m long per the European standard which would be about right for those services, and the same for XC.