Avanti West Coast via Settle (for WCML Bridge replacement next January?)

[185143]

Good on the TM, sounds like he or she should be sent to the marketing department! I reckon an email to customers or social media promotion would have cost nothing, given some positive PR (no rail replacement buses etc.), and might well have attracted more business.

Indeed. Suspect it's a tricky balance, yes they probably could have done more to attract passengers on the diversion. But at the same time, they absolutely don't want to risk overwhelming them.

Though the two people sat infront of me who I assumed were both Avanti PR people, one was, but the other was an ITV regional news journalist who did interview a couple of passengers, and was clearly promoting the services. So that may well attract more people.

 

[Iskra]

Good on the TM, sounds like he or she should be sent to the marketing department! I reckon an email to customers or social media promotion would have cost nothing, given some positive PR (no rail replacement buses etc.), and might well have attracted more business.

Why would they want to do that before they knew what levels the loadings were at?

If they had marketed it to the general public in advance, and a load of enthusiasts had booked on, plus genuine travellers, they could have swamped the 5-car train and they’d be getting criticised for a shambles on here.

Early January is pretty quiet time for travel, and there are various weather warnings out and the route is disrupted. Loading will only improve from here.

 

[yorksrob]

It's a brilliant idea, and I hope regular diverts over thr S&C become a regular feature.

However, looking at NRE for tomorrow, there seems to be an RRB between Carlisle and Scotland, which might put a few off.

Similarly, are there any advanced purchase fares available on the service ? If you've spent the last thirty years conditioning passengers to buy AP fares, it's not surprising if they don't turn up if there aren't any available.

 

[_toommm_]

It's a brilliant idea, and I hope regular diverts over thr S&C become a regular feature.

However, looking at NRE for tomorrow, there seems to be an RRB between Carlisle and Scotland, which might put a few off.

Similarly, are there any advanced purchase fares available on the service ? If you've spent the last thirty years conditioning passengers to buy AP fares, it's not surprising if they don't turn up if there aren't any available.

There are advances available - I've got one for the novelty tomorrow. £16 and change with my 16-25 railcard which I'd say is pretty good.

 

[yorksrob]

There are advances available - I've got one for the novelty tomorrow. £16 and change with my 16-25 railcard which I'd say is pretty good.

That's good. A bit of learning from Project Rio there perhaps.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

Saw two services pass my local this morning (around 10:25 at CYT, so the morning Crewe to Carlisle and Carlisle to Wigan) and didn't see much people onboard.

 

[Halwynd]

Indeed. Suspect it's a tricky balance, yes they probably could have done more to attract passengers on the diversion. But at the same time, they absolutely don't want to risk overwhelming them.

Though the two people sat infront of me who I assumed were both Avanti PR people, one was, but the other was an ITV regional news journalist who did interview a couple of passengers, and was clearly promoting the services. So that may well attract more people.

Yes, just seen a clip on the local ITV news, so to be fair I acknowledge that Avanti are now actively promoting the service which is good to see.

 

[IrishDave]

In fairness the WCML is chopped to heck. Train from Glasgow to Lockerbie, bus to Carlisle. Train from Carlisle to Wigan, then another train to Ruby, and another to Northampton. Bus to Milton Keynes Central before finally a train to Euston. It's not surprising that they're loading so poorly when it's that convoluted in my view!

When LNER do their diversions say via the Tyne Valley the rest of the ECML is both open and it's usually a through service to/from London to/from Scotland. This leads to much healthier loadings (indeed often full or fullish trains).

It'll be more instructive next week I reckon when the line is open from Preston to Euston and then especially when from the middle of next week when it's open from Glasgow to Carlisle as well. So it's train from Glasgow to Carlisle, train to Preston and then train to Euston. No buses at all!

If they're still dead at that point it's more of an indication that this hasn't worked from a passenger perspective.

I think the comparison with the LNER Tyne Valley diversions (or indeed those via the Durham Coast, or via Lincoln, or via Cambridge) is very apt - they're always through trains from London to Edinburgh (and often beyond). This, I think, is something that gets forgotten when saying "diverts are better" - diverts are great if you can keep people on the train, but if they have to change anyway then the difference between a diverted train and a replacement bus is that much less.

Unfortunately, as Avanti have only a very limited number of class 805 bimodes, the diversions require people to change at Wigan/Preston and again at Carlisle. I can understand that being beneficial over the weekends, when the M6 itself is also closed and the replacement buses will have to divert. But on days like today, when the buses are faster than the diverted train, the diverts simply don't show up in journey planners, and no-one uses them.

I was on 1Z35 (0918 Crewe to Carlisle) and 1Z38 (1421 Carlisle-Wigan) today to see how they ran. 1Z35 had 49 people in the front half - a sizeable number of whom (including myself, in fairness!) were enthusiasts, rather than genuine travellers - although the low loading is somewhat unsurprising as it had been impossible to book a ticket on it for at least a week. 1Z38 had 70 people in the front half, with 54 seats showing as reserved - not all of them were occupied, but people will undoubtedly have spread out along the train and/or ended up in the wrong unit. I can't speak to how many were on the back half in either case.

If the trains are running at less than a quarter of capacity (a class 805 has 299 seats), one has to wonder why the industry is bothering. It feels like too much thought has been given to "we must run diverted trains!" and not enough to making sure they show up in journey planners and people get funneled into using them, instead of replacement buses. I agree that it's worth reserving judgment until next week, but I can't say I'm optimistic.

 

[jamess]

Probably the best place to terminate. Provided the station cafe is open.

The cafe wasn’t open!

 

[38Cto15E]

I received an email today from Avanti informing me that the time has changed for my journey from Carlisle to Preston next week, it has changed from 0923 to 0924. Presumably that change applies to every day.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Where do the people expressing shock at the low levels of passengers think passengers would be going over the last 2 days. 1st Jan was a Thursday so almost everybody would have taken the Friday off work as well meaning few would be in a rush to get home after the Christmas / New Year period. I was out on Thursday morning and the roads resembled the Covid lockdowns, nobody was out.

Before people bemoan the low loadings too much perhaps we should make a comparison with other, scheduled long distance trains. Were they busy on Thursday or Friday?

Isn't the reason the work is being done at this time of year precisely because not many people travel?

 

[The Planner]

Where do the people expressing shock at the low levels of passengers think passengers would be going over the last 2 days. 1st Jan was a Thursday so almost everybody would have taken the Friday off work as well meaning few would be in a rush to get home after the Christmas / New Year period. I was out on Thursday morning and the roads resembled the Covid lockdowns, nobody was out.

Before people bemoan the low loadings too much perhaps we should make a comparison with other, scheduled long distance trains. Were they busy on Thursday or Friday?

Isn't the reason the work is being done at this time of year precisely because not many people travel?

As already noted, its next week when Preston is open that the numbers should be looked at. Then again on the 7th once Kingmoor re-signalling is complete and the route to Scotland is open.

 

[yorksrob]

Where do the people expressing shock at the low levels of passengers think passengers would be going over the last 2 days. 1st Jan was a Thursday so almost everybody would have taken the Friday off work as well meaning few would be in a rush to get home after the Christmas / New Year period. I was out on Thursday morning and the roads resembled the Covid lockdowns, nobody was out.

Before people bemoan the low loadings too much perhaps we should make a comparison with other, scheduled long distance trains. Were they busy on Thursday or Friday?

Isn't the reason the work is being done at this time of year precisely because not many people travel?

Footie matches mainly !

 

[voyagerdude220]

Strangely Realtime Trains is showing this evening's 18:03 and 20:03 departures from Carlisle as cancelled.

Nothing yet on Avanti Journey Check. Indeed both still show Advance fares as being available.

 

[daveo]

18:03 certainly ran, with an on-time departure and a few minutes late at Wigan.
Appeared to be 53 late leaving Warrington!!

 

[D1537]

Meanwhile, it's being claimed that a problem with the bridge demolition may push the work back by some as yet unspecified time.

 

[ainsworth74]

Please see the existing thread on the bridge works here to discuss any delays to the project. Until it's clear what the situation is lets keep this thread for what's actually happening with the diversions not what might happen please

 

[Bertie the bus]

18:03 certainly ran, with an on-time departure and a few minutes late at Wigan.
Appeared to be 53 late leaving Warrington!!

How can the 18:03 have run late 3 hours before it is due to depart?

 

[voyagerdude220]

18:03 certainly ran, with an on-time departure and a few minutes late at Wigan.
Appeared to be 53 late leaving Warrington!!

Tonight.

 

[ainsworth74]

How can the 18:03 have run late 3 hours before it is due to depart?

And does @daveo have tonight's lottery numbers seeing as they've got a time machine on hand?

 

[voyagerdude220]

Realtime Trains and Trust have both had a change of mind, as both were earlier showing this evening's 18:03/20:03 from Carlisle as being cancelled but both trains are now being shown as running as scheduled.

 

[greaterwest]

On board 1Z41 1554 Wigan North Western to Carlisle and there's barely half a dozen people in each coach. The train manager says they've all been lightly loaded and mostly with enthusiasts.

The front set of the 10 car is locked out of use, only coaches L, M, N, P and K are available for use.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Does anyone know why the majority of the Avanti Settle and Carlisle diversions appear to have lost time? The Everos seem to be struggling to stay on time.

 

[ChilliSauce]

Does anyone know why the majority of the Avanti Settle and Carlisle diversions appear to have lost time? The Everos seem to be struggling to stay on time.

I expect being class 8xx units they are struggling to do 60mph at 1:100 gradient unless all engines are up and running

 

[AndrewE]

I was on the 0847 Crewe to Carlisle (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:S22935/2026-01-03/detailed#allox_id=0) which was delayed 40 mins because they tried to join the 2 sets (separately off the carriage shed) in the platform and then found that they couldn't get the front set doors to open. Checked on the approach to pfm 4 at Warrington and then overtime for the same reason, 19 late from Wigan. It was further delayed at Blackburn but after that it went fine, losing a couple of minutes to Armathwaite but regaining 5 before Carlisle. Pity none of the staff realised that the front set doors hadn't released, lots of passengers banging on windows to attract platform staff attention, passcom/toilet alarms pulled etc. One chap watched his Newcastle connection set off...
Finally after exactly 10 mins we were allowed out through a staff door at the rear of the unit - and I was pretty well the closest to it. Both units were quite well filled by my reckoning, standard virtually full when I walked through to the shop.

The 1423 return to Wigan had the rear (door fault) set locked out, first class was pretty well full up (2 blokes went back to standard to find a seat facing forwards) and I guess standard was the same. It only lost 2 mins to Ribblehead but was checked at Settle Jn by a late-running Morecambe to Leeds, then again at Blackburn, arriving into Wigan 5 late.

Apart from the morning shambles at Crewe and the fact that the whole set was like an icebox until a member of the crew announced, after Wigan I think, that they had noticed it and reset the thermostat I didn't find the train's actual performance to be a frustration!

 

[lrbvoyager]

would it not make more sense to run them more frequently as 5 coach formations instead of 10? Maybe that way they could do Preston to Glasgow or Edinburgh etc? Just an idea. Would have to be after the works at Kingmoor.

 

[AlterEgo]

Does anyone know why the majority of the Avanti Settle and Carlisle diversions appear to have lost time? The Everos seem to be struggling to stay on time.

Becuase they are timed as Voyagers in the timetable, a train which performs better on diesel.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Becuase they are timed as Voyagers in the timetable, a train which performs better on diesel.

Surely that's an error by Network Rail/Avanti. Silly if such a simple reason is causing so many delays.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2026 ==

I was on the 0847 Crewe to Carlisle (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:S22935/2026-01-03/detailed#allox_id=0) which was delayed 40 mins because they tried to join the 2 sets (separately off the carriage shed) in the platform and then found that they couldn't get the front set doors to open. Checked on the approach to pfm 4 at Warrington and then overtime for the same reason, 19 late from Wigan. It was further delayed at Blackburn but after that it went fine, losing a couple of minutes to Armathwaite but regaining 5 before Carlisle. Pity none of the staff realised that the front set doors hadn't released, lots of passengers banging on windows to attract platform staff attention, passcom/toilet alarms pulled etc. One chap watched his Newcastle connection set off...
Finally after exactly 10 mins we were allowed out through a staff door at the rear of the unit - and I was pretty well the closest to it. Both units were quite well filled by my reckoning, standard virtually full when I walked through to the shop.

The 1423 return to Wigan had the rear (door fault) set locked out, first class was pretty well full up (2 blokes went back to standard to find a seat facing forwards) and I guess standard was the same. It only lost 2 mins to Ribblehead but was checked at Settle Jn by a late-running Morecambe to Leeds, then again at Blackburn, arriving into Wigan 5 late.

Apart from the morning shambles at Crewe and the fact that the whole set was like an icebox until a member of the crew announced, after Wigan I think, that they had noticed it and reset the thermostat I didn't find the train's actual performance to be a frustration!

Interesting, thank you for your trip report!
It doesn't seem like the door problem upon your arrival at Carlisle was dealt with particularly promptly by the staff, which is strange considering they'd already had door problems on your train.

 

[19Gnasher69]

Does anyone know why the majority of the Avanti Settle and Carlisle diversions appear to have lost time? The Everos seem to be struggling to stay on time.

Today’s 11:55 from WGN set off a little late then steadily (and ridiculously) lost time all the way to Carlisle before recouping around eight minutes due to the pathing allowances at Howe & Co. Sidings.
However it was worth the delay to travel over the route in a decent train rather than slogging up hill and down dale in a knackered 158.

 

[MrJeeves]

Surely that's an error by Network Rail/Avanti. Silly if such a simple reason is causing so many delays.

If the train type has never had any timings set up for travel over the S&C line, it would be impossible to path a train as an 80x as far as I understand.

In theory, AWC should have probably put engineering allowances in the journey to account for this, but I would guess they also didn't know how the units would perform in the real world, and probably thought it would be better than the reality!

I know they did some test runs and route learning, but that was back in summer, and I'd imagine performance can differ seasonally. For all we know, maybe the struggle is partly affected by adhesion too?