Investigating of fraud for delay repay??

[shortpenguin]

Hi,

Northern sent me and email to say that they think I’m committing fraud because I’ve submitted a suspicious number of delay repay claims over the last few years. I take trains everyday with a change over of 5mins…this is bound to get delayed thus resulting in submitting a claim almost everyday.

There have been a few I submitted by accident seeing as I have so many to submit and as their app isn’t accurate in showing historical data eg if a train was cancelled, or the actual delay time it resulted in me inputting the wrong info on the delay repay form.

Now they’re asking me of £300+ because of it and they had to investigate?? I denied all fraud accusations and then they offered to reduce it to £100+ but I’m still not paying that.

They’ve put the case on hold whilst they deal with ‘internal process changes’. But I’ve asked them repeatedly to close the case seeing as it’s been a couple of months.

Realistically what will be the outcome of this because I am not going to pay!

 

[yorkie]

Hi,

Northern sent me and email to say that they think I’m committing fraud because I’ve submitted a suspicious number of delay repay claims over the last few years. I take trains everyday with a change over of 5mins…this is bound to get delayed thus resulting in submitting a claim almost everyday.

There have been a few I submitted by accident seeing as I have so many to submit and as their app isn’t accurate in showing historical data eg if a train was cancelled, or the actual delay time it resulted in me inputting the wrong info on the delay repay form.

Now they’re asking me of £300+ because of it and they had to investigate?? I denied all fraud accusations and then they offered to reduce it to £100+ but I’m still not paying that.

They’ve put the case on hold whilst they deal with ‘internal process changes’. But I’ve asked them repeatedly to close the case seeing as it’s been a couple of months.

Realistically what will be the outcome of this because I am not going to pay!

If you've made invalid claims, then the best advice is to agree to a settlement.

Any claims should be made on the basis of occasions when you were actually delayed, and must be based on the arrival time at your destination being delayed, by a qualifying period of time, based on the booked arrival time, adhering to the minimum connection rules (or, in other words, following a valid itinerary).

Claims should not be made based on looking at some data and then seeing when you think you can say you were delayed; this is asking for trouble, and if you have done something along those lines, it's not surprising that you are now facing legal action, if this has been done multiple times.

If you are not going to pay, then the matter will proceed to court. Do you plan to represent yourself, or pay for a solicitor to represent you? I would advise seeking a solicitor sooner rather than later, if you intend to go down that road. Either way, it could cost you a lot more than £100.

If it were me in this position, I would only let the matter go to court if I was certain that my claims were legitimate, and I would be appointing a solicitor to represent me in court.

Would a criminal record affect your existing job and/or future career prospects? If so, I would also suggest taking that into consideration, when deciding how to proceed.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum.

The first question is whether your claims in general are legitimate. So please could you tell us where you changed trains, and ideally what time your train in was meant to arrive there and what time your train out was meant to leave.

I ask because (as I understand it) there's a minimum connection time set for each station. If you were hoping for (say) a 3 minute connection and the minimum connection time for that station is (say, again) 8 minutes then a Delay Repay claim would be invalid.

But if your connections are valid, then you could be in a stronger position in responding to the railway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2026 ==

Now they’re asking me of £300+ because of it and they had to investigate?? I denied all fraud accusations and then they offered to reduce it to £100+ but I’m still not paying that.

As a further point, have you been given a breakdown of the claims which were covered by the £300 demand, and those covered by the £100 one? As you accept that some of your claims were illegitimate (you hit the wrong button) if the £100 demand only relates to those then the railway is in a stronger position.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hard to say how reasonable their suspicions are as we don't know anything about the journey. How many claims have you made?

 

[6Gman]

Hi,

Northern sent me and email to say that they think I’m committing fraud because I’ve submitted a suspicious number of delay repay claims over the last few years. I take trains everyday with a change over of 5mins…this is bound to get delayed thus resulting in submitting a claim almost everyday.

There have been a few I submitted by accident seeing as I have so many to submit and as their app isn’t accurate in showing historical data eg if a train was cancelled, or the actual delay time it resulted in me inputting the wrong info on the delay repay form.

Now they’re asking me of £300+ because of it and they had to investigate?? I denied all fraud accusations and then they offered to reduce it to £100+ but I’m still not paying that.

They’ve put the case on hold whilst they deal with ‘internal process changes’. But I’ve asked them repeatedly to close the case seeing as it’s been a couple of months.

Realistically what will be the outcome of this because I am not going to pay!

Why would you need to look at their app to see if your train was cancelled? Surely you'd know because you were there and the train wasn't!

 

[Haywain]

There have been a few I submitted by accident seeing as I have so many to submit and as their app isn’t accurate in showing historical data eg if a train was cancelled, or the actual delay time it resulted in me inputting the wrong info on the delay repay form.

So, you accpet that not all of your claims are legitimate?

 

[shortpenguin]

Just to clarify a few points

I take 2 trains to get to work and then the same journey back, with a 5 minute change over period. 9/10 times the first train is delayed therefore impacting the second train. I have to submit a claim pretty much for every journey I take so that’s about 10 submissions each week. The train journey is often delayed by 14m or exceeding that but keeping a track of it all is near impossible. I use the northern app to go back and check if the train was delayed before submitting the claim but of course by submitting 10 a week there’s bound to be a few errors over the years.

I also asked one of the customer advisor team on the northern chat, they said if you’re not sure of how long the delay is just submit it, as the delay repay with automatically calculate it.

Now personally I think I'm not in the wrong, and it feels ridiculous to have to pay £100 when that’s the amount I probably recieved over the span of the years in valid delay repay claims.

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I’ve made over 100’s of delay repay claims and that was the trigger reason for them to start the investigation. Respectfully, if northern trains were on time I wouldn’t have to make that many claims over a few years.

 

[soccermad]

Just to clarify a few points

I take 2 trains to get to work and then the same journey back, with a 5 minute change over period. 9/10 times the first train is delayed therefore impacting the second train. I have to submit a claim pretty much for every journey I take so that’s about 10 submissions each week. The train journey is often delayed by 14m or exceeding that but keeping a track of it all is near impossible. I use the northern app to go back and check if the train was delayed before submitting the claim but of course by submitting 10 a week there’s bound to be a few errors over the years.

I also asked one of the customer advisor team on the northern chat, they said if you’re not sure of how long the delay is just submit it, as the delay repay with automatically calculate it.

Now personally I think I'm not in the wrong, and it feels ridiculous to have to pay £100 when that’s the amount I probably recieved over the span of the years in valid delay repay claims.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2026 ==

I’ve made over 100’s of delay repay claims and that was the trigger reason for them to start the investigation. Respectfully, if northern trains were on time I wouldn’t have to make that many claims over a few years.

So, you accept t that not all of your claims are legitimate as asked by Haywain ???? If so, we have no leg to stand on as its were

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Just to clarify a few points

I take 2 trains to get to work and then the same journey back, with a 5 minute change over period. 9/10 times the first train is delayed therefore impacting the second train. I have to submit a claim pretty much for every journey I take so that’s about 10 submissions each week. The train journey is often delayed by 14m or exceeding that but keeping a track of it all is near impossible. I use the northern app to go back and check if the train was delayed before submitting the claim but of course by submitting 10 a week there’s bound to be a few errors over the years.

I also asked one of the customer advisor team on the northern chat, they said if you’re not sure of how long the delay is just submit it, as the delay repay with automatically calculate it.

Now personally I think I'm not in the wrong, and it feels ridiculous to have to pay £100 when that’s the amount I probably recieved over the span of the years in valid delay repay claims.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2026 ==

I’ve made over 100’s of delay repay claims and that was the trigger reason for them to start the investigation. Respectfully, if northern trains were on time I wouldn’t have to make that many claims over a few years.

It would help us a lot of you could give us specific information: the questions I asked earlier (post #3) about where you changed trains for example. I guess that you won't want to disclose too much, and we respect your desire for privacy - but hopefully the station where you change trains won't tell us exactly where you came from or exactly where you were going.

 

[z444z]

I also asked one of the customer advisor team on the northern chat, they said if you’re not sure of how long the delay is just submit it, as the delay repay with automatically calculate it.

Do you have a record of this? If this is true then it would put you in a stronger position.

Do you know what the sum they’re requesting from you is made up of? If it’s simply repaying money that’s been incorrectly paid out to you then you should probably just pay it.

 

[Titfield]

I take 2 trains to get to work and then the same journey back, with a 5 minute change over period. 9/10 times the first train is delayed therefore impacting the second train. I have to submit a claim pretty much for every journey I take so that’s about 10 submissions each week.

I think that arguing that a TOC runs virtually 0% of the trains you catch on time is not a sustainable position.

Do you actually tap in tap out or put a card ticket through the barrier so there is proof of being at the gateline for all these occasions?

 

[Southern Beau]

So based on 5 weeks annual leave, you commute 47 weeks of the year.
You say nearly every journey is delayed but if we err on the side of caution and say 8 trips are delayed.

Thats 376 claims a year.
I’m surprised Northern hasn’t raised this with you earlier!

 

[Mattplans]

Hi,

Northern sent me and email to say that they think I’m committing fraud because I’ve submitted a suspicious number of delay repay claims over the last few years. I take trains everyday with a change over of 5mins…this is bound to get delayed thus resulting in submitting a claim almost everyday.

There have been a few I submitted by accident seeing as I have so many to submit and as their app isn’t accurate in showing historical data eg if a train was cancelled, or the actual delay time it resulted in me inputting the wrong info on the delay repay form.

Now they’re asking me of £300+ because of it and they had to investigate?? I denied all fraud accusations and then they offered to reduce it to £100+ but I’m still not paying that.

They’ve put the case on hold whilst they deal with ‘internal process changes’. But I’ve asked them repeatedly to close the case seeing as it’s been a couple of months.

Realistically what will be the outcome of this because I am not going to pay!

Could you post the email please and attachments?

 

[shortpenguin]

So, you accept t that not all of your claims are legitimate as asked by Haywain ???? If so, we have no leg to stand on as its were

Then the claim I submitted by accident should have been rejected by the delay repay process/staff.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2026 ==

So based on 5 weeks annual leave, you commute 47 weeks of the year.
You say nearly every journey is delayed but if we err on the side of caution and say 8 trips are delayed.

Thats 376 claims a year.
I’m surprised Northern hasn’t raised this with you earlier!

I stopped using the trains after 3 years so I assume they had enough evidence to ‘get me’

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2026 ==

I think that arguing that a TOC runs virtually 0% of the trains you catch on time is not a sustainable position.

Do you actually tap in tap out or put a card ticket through the barrier so there is proof of being at the gateline for all these occasions?

I scan the ticket at the barrier

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2026 ==

Do you have a record of this? If this is true then it would put you in a stronger position.

Do you know what the sum they’re requesting from you is made up of? If it’s simply repaying money that’s been incorrectly paid out to you then you should probably just pay it.

I don’t have a record but they should. The thing is I’m happy to repay the overpaid amounts that they paid me accidentally, but they also want extra on top for investigating it in the first place, which is ridiculous

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2026 ==

Here is the initial letter

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I don’t have a record but they should. The thing is I’m happy to repay the overpaid amounts that they paid me accidentally, but they also want extra on top for investigating it in the first place, which is ridiculous

To play devil's advocate, why is it ridiculous? The railway will argue that if you hadn't overclaimed, they wouldn't have incurred the costs of the investigation. So why shouldn't you pay to put the railway back in the position they would have been in had you not overclaimed?

 

[shortpenguin]

Out of the 166 claims I made, they had issues with only 28 of them… over the span of like 2-3 years like come on

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2026 ==

To play devil's advocate, why is it ridiculous? The railway will argue that if you hadn't overclaimed, they wouldn't have incurred the costs of the investigation. So why shouldn't you pay to put the railway back in the position they would have been in had you not overclaimed?

I understand where you’re coming from and agree to some extent, but it’s frustrating as they’re demanding an amount from me that essentially gives back all the delay repay money I’ve rightfully claimed from them as a result of their customer advisor advising me to just submit it anyway.

 

[SuspectUsual]

@shortpenguin

1 - where are you travelling from and to, and where do you change?

2 - do you get the same train each morning and the same train each evening?

 

[philthetube]

Out of the 166 claims I made, they had issues with only 28 of them… over the span of like 2-3 years like come on

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That is around 17%, quite a high error rate, suggest you pay up to make it go away

 

[SuspectUsual]

The train journey is often delayed by 14m or exceeding that but keeping a track of it all is near impossible.

If you do try and defend what you’ve been doing to Northern, this is possibly the weakest argument you could use.

 

[soccermad]

Then the claim I submitted by accident should have been rejected by the delay repay process/staff.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2026 ==


I stopped using the trains after 3 years so I assume they had enough evidence to ‘get me’

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2026 ==


I scan the ticket at the barrier

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2026 ==


I don’t have a record but they should. The thing is I’m happy to repay the overpaid amounts that they paid me accidentally, but they also want extra on top for investigating it in the first place, which is ridiculous

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2026 ==

Here is the initial letter

1) Your claims were not ,by accident, you have made speculative claims it seems 'hoping' that they will be erroneously acccepted and these are believed by Northern to constitute invalid claims

2) You will get nowhere by stating that their staff told you to claim and let the system sort out the real ones unless you have proof, which you said you do not have

3). It is standard practise for the TOC's to claim their costs in these circumstamces ( I am aware that the new Conditions of travel state that these costs should not exceed the actual investigation costs but we do not know what these might be )

You are being offered the type of resolution often seen on here for this type of issue , we have now advised you a number of times to accept this in order to resolve the issue. You are not in a position to refuse (although you 'may' be able to negotiate a reduced settlement value.) If you are unable to agree a settlement they will prosecute you with the likely outcome being a guilty verdict and the fine, costs and repayment of the delay repays are likely to exceed the offered value to settle AND result in a criminal record

As a result of all these reasons I recommend that you attempt to agree a reduced settlement figure and then pay up.

Regards

Steve

 

[z444z]

If you are unable to agree a settlement they will prosecute you with the likely outcome being a guilty verdict and the fine, costs and repayment of the delay repays are likely to exceed the offered value to settle AND result in a criminal record

Prosecuted for what though? In their letter Northern have mentioned the Fraud Act, which requires intent to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. Is a misunderstanding of how delay repay works plausible? I think so.

If the conversation with customer service that the OP tells us about did indeed happen, Northern may have a record of this, and the OP should check their email history in case a transcript of the chat was sent, and if not submit a subject access request to Northern for this information ASAP.

Around £250 to make this all go away is a deal many people would take, but the OP has made it pretty clear that they aren’t happy with this as a resolution, so our focus should be on helping them obtain a satisfactory outcome.

 

[AlterEgo]

Around £250 to make this all go away is a deal many people would take, but the OP has made it pretty clear that they aren’t happy with this as a resolution, so our focus should be on helping them obtain a satisfactory outcome.

Agreed.

We see lots of instances of people who are clearly committing fraud, but this does not come anywhere near a good case of fraud based on the evidence we have seen.

166 claims over more than two years is not that large and within a normal amount of claims I would expect from someone who had to commute using a minimum connection. Claiming for duplicates sometimes is careless, but the onus is on the TOC to refuse them as duplicates. Claiming for delays which don't meet the threshold is entirely normal and I refused many claims back in my day of assessing DR claims from passengers who were, at best, mistaken.

I don't believe the TOC has a fraud case. If they have overpaid the OP delay repay then they are entitled to ask for the overpayment back, correctly worked out and with the rationale of said claim shown to the OP. But they are not entitled to their imagined costs, which could have been avoided if they hadn't been feckless. If the claims are not over threshold or are duplicates, refuse the claim. I have worked this job before - this is not hard to do. If they have been auto-approving every single claim well I'm sorry Northern, you need to do better.

I would either ignore the correspondence or write back and suggest you are happy to repay any identified overpayment at the rate it was paid. They can whistle for their £70.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Around £250 to make this all go away is a deal many people would take, but the OP has made it pretty clear that they aren’t happy with this as a resolution, so our focus should be on helping them obtain a satisfactory outcome.

It may be worth bearing in mind that in post #1 the OP tells us

Now they’re asking me of £300+ because of it and they had to investigate?? I denied all fraud accusations and then they offered to reduce it to £100+ but I’m still not paying that.

So £100+ seems to be the amount at stake.

 

[z444z]

It may be worth bearing in mind that in post #1 the OP tells us

So £100+ seems to be the amount at stake.

Ah ok thanks for pointing that out. Still, it appears the OP isn’t happy with that as an outcome!

 

[blimmo]

If you are unable to agree a settlement they will prosecute you with the likely outcome being a guilty verdict

I think some posters may be confusing this situation with the usual matter of railway ticketing where the offences can be strict liability (though not always). Fraud definitely requires intent so in this case Northern have a significantly harder job if they want to prosecute. Perhaps they will, perhaps they will decide it is too hard but AIUI they cannot prosecute this at the Magistrates Court in the usual way or with SJP.

 

[WesternLancer]

I think some posters may be confusing this situation with the usual matter of railway ticketing where the offences can be strict liability (though not always). Fraud definitely requires intent so in this case Northern have a significantly harder job if they want to prosecute. Perhaps they will, perhaps they will decide it is too hard but AIUI they cannot prosecute this at the Magistrates Court in the usual way or with SJP.

Which presumably means the op has the option of responding with a counter offer which if Northern are not happy about accepting, the op can then defend themselves against Northerns claim in court, if they are up for doing that.

Beyond paying what they are asking now are there any other options?

 

[z444z]

Beyond paying what they are asking now are there any other options?

Negotiating, not responding, or responding denying the accusations and refusing to pay are the three other options. Personally, having been incorrectly but inadvertently paid some amount, partially as a result of being incorrectly advised by the company, I’d be offering to pay the amount incorrectly paid and nothing more, though there would certainly be a temptation to let them take it to court and be laughed out of there with their complete lack of evidence.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Beyond paying what they are asking now are there any other options?

In the letter they’re inviting the OP to an interview. Obviously not a good idea for them to accept the offer

 

[WesternLancer]

In the letter they’re inviting the OP to an interview. Obviously not a good idea for them to accept the offer

Certainly agree with that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2026 ==

Negotiating, not responding, or responding denying the accusations and refusing to pay are the three other options. Personally, having been incorrectly but inadvertently paid some amount, partially as a result of being incorrectly advised by the company, I’d be offering to pay the amount incorrectly paid and nothing more, though there would certainly be a temptation to let them take it to court and be laughed out of there with their complete lack of evidence.

Thanks. That gives the op some options to think about and consider how they wish to respond.

No doubt advice can be given here on the pros and cons of each.

 

[tatitiliti]

Hi,

Northern sent me and email to say that they think I’m committing fraud because I’ve submitted a suspicious number of delay repay claims over the last few years. I take trains everyday with a change over of 5mins…this is bound to get delayed thus resulting in submitting a claim almost everyday.

There have been a few I submitted by accident seeing as I have so many to submit and as their app isn’t accurate in showing historical data eg if a train was cancelled, or the actual delay time it resulted in me inputting the wrong info on the delay repay form.

Now they’re asking me of £300+ because of it and they had to investigate?? I denied all fraud accusations and then they offered to reduce it to £100+ but I’m still not paying that.

They’ve put the case on hold whilst they deal with ‘internal process changes’. But I’ve asked them repeatedly to close the case seeing as it’s been a couple of months.

Realistically what will be the outcome of this because I am not going to pay!

I think they’d have a very hard time bringing a Fraud Act prosecution on that. As long as you left above the published minimum connection time to make your connection, you are entitled to claim delay repay for a delay that caused a missed connection. It is also understandable that small but consistent delays can quite easily push your connection below the minimum connection time. Given you understandably don’t want to pay their fees, I’d probably ignore all further correspondence and see what happens. Let this be a lesson to be very careful with your future claims.

Also, I wouldn’t touch the interview with a ten-foot barge pole - they are trained to get you to inadvertently incriminate yourself and the process is not designed to help you out.