Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[800001]

810012 seems to have had its plans for today changed, the 1705 Nottingham has been changed to a 222, with 810012 now destined to Sheffield according to the external destination screen. Does anyone know what happened?

A normal everyday Set swap.

 

[AndrewJM70]

I got to travel on 006 and 012 today. Both were busy but plenty of free seats. 010 and 013 were parked at Etches Park so I assume the others were still doing driver training.

 

[Railperf]

A normal everyday Set swap.

810012 terminated at Derby due to problem with the traction equipment.

 

[Amos390]

Looks like 810006 has been taken off 1F15 today and the service has been cut short at derby (cancellation code was TB - Train cancelled or delayed at Train Operator’s request), unit has probably returned to Etches. Has there been another issue with 006?

 

[Spartacus]

Looks like 810006 has been taken off 1F15 today and the service has been cut short at derby (cancellation code was TB - Train cancelled or delayed at Train Operator’s request), unit has probably returned to Etches. Has there been another issue with 006?

Problems again today too, apparently a cab heating fault this time.

 

[ChilliSauce]

Baring in mind a 810 is basically a new train compared to the earlier 8Xx fleet.

What was the 8XX issues when they were first introduced?

On GWR with Class 8xx they continue to experience failures of the diesel pumps .. So engines get isolated, trains that do run then loose time.

Yesterday a class 8xx on a Wigan / Carlisle diverted over the Settle & Carlisle never actually made Carlisle but "gave up" at Hellifield and later returned to Wigan ... Given you most likely need full diesel engine power over the "long drag" .. that could very well of been another diesel pump failure .

And what of this damper fatigue issue that continues to plague class 8xx?

Overall I am not so sure that "new trains" on EMR intercity is going to be quite all EMR are trying to crack up it's going to be .

On a happier note during 2026 the EMR franchise comes to an end so that should mean Transport UK out of the picture .

 

[Amos390]

Not a god few days for the 810s so far, yesterday we had 006 getting pulled early morning, then 810012 was pulled off from 1B88 at Kettering for M8 - Problems with the train, then 006 was once again pulled this morning for the same reason as 012 yesterday, what I do wonder, what's stopping them from swapping in 010 today, or possibly introducing 011. I am aware that 011 did run a non-passenger service (3A25/6) the other week, but then I've not seen anything else of it since, and it was parked up behind the OLE test road at Derby the other day., any updates on what's holing that up?

 

[Failed Unit]

On GWR with Class 8xx they continue to experience failures of the diesel pumps .. So engines get isolated, trains that do run then loose time.

Yesterday a class 8xx on a Wigan / Carlisle diverted over the Settle & Carlisle never actually made Carlisle but "gave up" at Hellifield and later returned to Wigan ... Given you most likely need full diesel engine power over the "long drag" .. that could very well of been another diesel pump failure .

And what of this damper fatigue issue that continues to plague class 8xx?

Overall I am not so sure that "new trains" on EMR intercity is going to be quite all EMR are trying to crack up it's going to be .

On a happier note during 2026 the EMR franchise comes to an end so that should mean Transport UK out of the picture .

Not sure how much of this can be held at Transport UKs door, apart from ordering the trains. But when you order trains like this you expect the builder to be able to deliver. ”Japanese reliability“ etc

 

[superalbs]

On GWR with Class 8xx they continue to experience failures of the diesel pumps .. So engines get isolated, trains that do run then loose time.

Yesterday a class 8xx on a Wigan / Carlisle diverted over the Settle & Carlisle never actually made Carlisle but "gave up" at Hellifield and later returned to Wigan ... Given you most likely need full diesel engine power over the "long drag" .. that could very well of been another diesel pump failure .

And what of this damper fatigue issue that continues to plague class 8xx?

Overall I am not so sure that "new trains" on EMR intercity is going to be quite all EMR are trying to crack up it's going to be .

On a happier note during 2026 the EMR franchise comes to an end so that should mean Transport UK out of the picture .

If you pardon the pun...

 

[gingertom]

aren't new trains supposed to have a period of fault free running before being accepted into service? Something isn't adding up here.

 

[tumbledown]

all EMR are trying to crack up it's going to be

An interesting construction, not seen often. To 'crack up' means to praise or commend.

https://doi.org/10.1093/OED/4049177668

 

[transportphoto]

Overall I am not so sure that "new trains" on EMR intercity is going to be quite all EMR are trying to crack up it's going to be .

On a happier note during 2026 the EMR franchise comes to an end so that should mean Transport UK out of the picture .

I fear from reading your posts that you’d be inclined to suggest that the passing of all current franchises (sic) to the DfT Operator will be the solution for everything. It’s important to remember that the DfT have a say in pretty much everything already - the launch of these new trains would look the same even if Transport UK weren’t involved.

I add (sic) after the word franchise with the acknowledgement that the concept of franchises disappeared some years ago now.

 

[duffield]

I fear from reading your posts that you’d be inclined to suggest that the passing of all current franchises (sic) to the DfT Operator will be the solution for everything. It’s important to remember that the DfT have a say in pretty much everything already - the launch of these new trains would look the same even if Transport UK weren’t involved.

I add (sic) after the word franchise with the acknowledgement that the concept of franchises disappeared some years ago now.

Yes, if there is to be any substantial change I really don't expect it until after GBR is fully operational and has (hopefully) gained a decent amount of independence from and distance from the DfT, so at least the DfT will no longer be micro-managing the railways. And even then of course, GBR will still have the legacy of many of the DfT's decisions for years to come.

 

[ChilliSauce]

SNot sure how much of this can be held at Transport UKs door, apart from ordering the trains. But when you order trains like this you expect the builder to be able to deliver. ”Japanese reliability“ etc

Well yes Transport UK were most likely just little more than the facilitator of ordering new trains ...no doubt using a specification prepared by DaFT.... which could very well of been little more than a variation to contract to Hitachi
given that's what these trains essentially are, ...variations on previous builds of class 8xx... then yes you would like to think the builder would deliver as per previous build reliability ..

The problem could very well be, that is exactly what Hitachi have done, as per previous build reliability..... given the continued problems with 8xx on GWR and possibly to an extend also onLNER ...however LNER reliance on diesel is less.

With Transport UK out of the picture later in the year that removes another interface out of the equation which has to be beneficial. Who's only notable input into these class 810s seems to have been to quote on the seat and seat fabric used ...so basically little more than cosmetic stuff..

 

[Richard Scott]

An interesting construction, not seen often. To 'crack up' means to praise or commend.

https://doi.org/10.1093/OED/4049177668

Not wishing to go off topic but phrase probably should read "it's not all it's cracked up to be"? This then means something that falls short of expectation.

 

[dosxuk]

aren't new trains supposed to have a period of fault free running before being accepted into service? Something isn't adding up here.

Running around with passengers and to the demands of the timetable is going to bring up issues that weren't apparent in the pre-release to the customer testing.

The fault free running isn't really intended to prove that the whole train is completely issue free, more that the traction equipment is sufficiently reliable that it's not going to sit down on every trip because of a silly mistake during construction.

 

[Amos390]

Running around with passengers and to the demands of the timetable is going to bring up issues that weren't apparent in the pre-release to the customer testing.

The fault free running isn't really intended to prove that the whole train is completely issue free, more that the traction equipment is sufficiently reliable that it's not going to sit down on every trip because of a silly mistake during construction.

You would think though with the amount of units failed so far, they would need to at least retest them to see what is really going on.

 

[vuzzeho]

You would think though with the amount of units failed so far, they would need to at least retest them to see what is really going on.

Well, every train introduction comes with issues. Some more than others, true, but overall I think the higher-than-normal failure rate is expected at this time of the process. The failures also don't seem to be serious issues (like the new DLR trains) which would require trains being pulled out of service and retested.

 

[Mag_seven]

Once again can I remind everyone that this thread is to discuss Class 810 Introduction Updates.

We have a couple of speculative threads about Class 810s which can be found here:

Class 810 - The Right Fit For EMR?

I've seen a lot of debate in the main Class 810 introduction thread, so creating this as a friendly space for debate around the merits of the 810 including but not limited to... -Seats -Capacity -Possibility of keeping 222 fleet to supplement capacity? Personally, I'd prefer the whole fleet be...

www.railforums.co.uk

or

Class 810 for East Midlands Railway: should they have been 7 cars, and could capacity be improved?

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-810-for-east-midlands-railway-construction-introduction-updates.195052 I haven't had the pleasure of travelling on an EMR 810 as yet but have seen them pulling into Derby and Sheffield whilst on my travels, and it's been...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Railperf]

810 010 on the 11:32 St Pancras to Sheffield - 30 December 2025 - seemed considerably slower on diesel than usual from most station stops north of Leicester. Can anyone confirm whether it was running with an engine out?

 

[Spartacus]

810 010 on the 11:32 St Pancras to Sheffield - 30 December 2025 - seemed considerably slower on diesel than usual from most station stops north of Leicester. Can anyone confirm whether it was running with an engine out?

It had 4L13 in front of it from Leicester, then doesn't really seem to have lost anything despite stopping pretty well everywhere. It did have a reset at Leicester late in the day, but doesn't seem to have any further issues and was kept in service. Usually anything persistent, even one engine out, would see one pulled from service.

 

[Railperf]

It had 4L13 in front of it from Leicester, then doesn't really seem to have lost anything despite stopping pretty well everywhere. It did have a reset at Leicester late in the day, but doesn't seem to have any further issues and was kept in service. Usually anything persistent, even one engine out, would see one pulled from service.

Hmm, that's interesting. It looks as though the degraded performance started as early as the 7:00 Sheffield to St PAncras and persisted throughout the day. The berth timings exiting most of the stations seems to indicate a much more lethargic performance than has been the norm for most 810's on diesel.

So the issue is either a deliberately slower than normal acceleration on the part of the driver - one or more engines underpowered or an engine out.

It would be interesting to understand the reason for that. But the berth timings do not lie. And while there might be a reason why one or two station starts might be a bit slower, this continued throughout the day. Anyone who might know but doesn't want to publicly divulge the info feel free to DM me.

810 010 also seems to have been afflicted by similar slow running on part of its diagrams on the 3/12, 6/12 and 13/12

Would one engine out really see the train pulled from service?
Are Class 810's designed like other Class 80x where other engines uprate power when an engine is lost - to compensate. It's clear these are not running at 985hp!

The measured acceleration using very high accuracy GPS is no better than a 5-car 222 on 4 engines. so it is very noticeable when the acceleration is even slower as demonstrated by 1F32 on the 30/12 - even taking into account an issue with a bit of freight congestion at Leicester. It does not explain the slow acceleration everywhere else when the train was late and drivers had incentive to make up time.

 

[Amos390]

810008 once again operating today running 3Z01 from Etches to Kettering Stabling Sidings (Schedule: https://live.rail-record.co.uk/train.php/?c=J73080&d=2026-01-04). Wonder why it needs to move from Etches, driver training has been completed no?

 

[baz962]

810008 once again operating today running 3Z01 from Etches to Kettering Stabling Sidings (Schedule: https://live.rail-record.co.uk/train.php/?c=J73080&d=2026-01-04). Wonder why it needs to move from Etches, driver training has been completed no?

A very tiny percent of drivers have trained on them.

 

[Amos390]

A very tiny percent of drivers have trained on them.

So they still have more training to do then, as I noticed they'd stopped doing the weekday 3A__ services that performed the driver training so presumed they'd finished. Does this mean these services are coming back then?

 

[baz962]

I don't know much about the exact training diagrams etc. I do know that other than a couple of instructors , no London drivers have been trained and the first start this week.

 

[Stephen42]

You would think though with the amount of units failed so far, they would need to at least retest them to see what is really going on.

If the units passed all the testing, putting them through the exact same testing again will often see them pass again. At this stage in the rollout typically there will be someone on board monitoring the data in addition to being stored for later evaluation. The test programme will be designed to replicate real world as much as possible, but there's limitations what can be done on the network without impacting other services.

Understanding what caused the failures is needed to change how the testing is done, but need to encounter the failures to be able to do that. Real life service will have more staff who might interact differently with the train compared to a test driver driving the same unit all day. Some issues can be at particular locations in certain conditions which a testing procedure won't cover all the variations. As people learn about the new units workarounds or briefs can be issued to cover gaps in training or unexpected unit behaviour.

In the ideal world you'd gather enough data to run analysis on, address the issues (maybe subbing out stock if will take time) and then go again. When there isn't much replacement stock about, keeping the same number of diagrams out and then expanding further once the failure rate goes down is better.

So they still have more training to do then, as I noticed they'd stopped doing the weekday 3A__ services that performed the driver training so presumed they'd finished. Does this mean these services are coming back then?

All those training paths are still in the system, but won't necessarily run all the time. It's common for training to pause over the festive period both due to engineering work and a period of higher leave.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Railfreight was unhappy with the reliability of its locos. and had a project team for replacements. They emerged as the Class 60.
When the locos. were handed over, they were put into service. An hours counter was started. If they failed by not conforming to the performance specification the counter was reset to zero and it stated again.
There was an agreed number of fault-free hours which, when achieved, only then resulted in the loco. builder being paid. It focussed the minds.

I don't understand why something similar can't be used for passenger trains, particularly bearing in mind that it's mainly tax-payers that are stumping up the costs.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Railfreight was unhappy with the reliability of its locos. and had a project team for replacements. They emerged as the Class 60.
When the locos. were handed over, they were put into service. An hours counter was started. If they failed by not conforming to the performance specification the counter was reset to zero and it stated again.
There was an agreed number of fault-free hours which, when achieved, only then resulted in the loco. builder being paid. It focussed the minds.

I don't understand why something similar can't be used for passenger trains, particularly bearing in mind that it's mainly tax-payers that are stumping up the costs.

The 810s also had to do a certain amount of fault-free running before being accepted...

 

[720144]

810011 is booked on DY701 today which will be the 4th unit accepted into passenger service according to rtt. Hopefully no more last minute swaps!