Epping Forest MP complains over Epping waiting times on the Central Line

[Tramfan]

TTN210/25 24-28 December; TTN105/24 29-30 December; TTN210/25 31 December-1 January; TTN49/25 2-4 January then reverts back to TTN37/25.

WTT70 hasn’t operated since 5 June 2023.

Thank you, that clears up my confusion!

 

[aron2smith]

A bit of a hot take - as much as I understand it is somewhat unreasonable for an Essex MP to be complaining about an LU service which they do not subsidise, TfL ultimately continues running the service... it is only fair to be disappointed given TfL does not really show any objection to running the service.

Then again, it also feels weird for me to be saying that, as my area which is actually within Greater London gets a considerably poorer service overall. This trend persists across Hertfordshire unfortunately, despite the populations certainly warranting a good service. Sure it's not LU or even TfL in any capacity, but it is just not acceptable regardless. Blame GTR.

Surely this suggests either of 2 things. London's boundaries are not fit for purpose as the full built up area isn't under London or that TFL should have different boundaries to Greater London as the commuter area is far bigger. Traffic and transport don't neatly line up with administrative boundaries.

The Tories (probably Lib Dems too) in the Home Counties won't like it but really there should be bold reforms so everyone around London can pay in to the transport authority as well as get accountability as the services do affect our lives. If TFL gets to run more railways that cross into neighbouring counties, then this question of accountability and who pays what and who provides what will only grow.

A bit like if the Overground reaches Stevenage and Welwyn, it needs to benefit both people using the London stations AND the Herts stations. As the commuter area is so large, ideally it would be one regional authority as none of the Home Counties have a rail network that can function in isolation.

Given Epping Forest District's transport is dominated by TFL, they should get a say as any London Borough would, it affects the residents in the same way. I think you are right though, many of these MPs and Councillors want their cake and to eat it too though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2026 ==

That is interesting.

My understanding is that there was some financial consideration, which explained the Essex/Hertfordshire discrepancy. Maybe that has changed?

As a Zone 8 resident, I declare an interest!

I assumed Essex paid towards zone 6 in Epping/ Debden too. As another zone 8 resident (other side of Herts) definitely declaring an interest. Tottenham Hale to Cheshunt goes from zone 3 to 8 despite taking just 8 to 10 minutes which doesn't seem right.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2026 ==

Cheap political points scoring from an MP whose constituency is not in London and whose residents do not contribute to the running costs of London's transport network.

Really the system should be changed so neighbouring areas do pay towards London's transport. Then we could benefit from better services, concessions etc. Always going to be messy while Greater London doesn't align with the London Built up area.

 

[35B]

Surely this suggests either of 2 things. London's boundaries are not fit for purpose as the full built up area isn't under London or that TFL should have different boundaries to Greater London as the commuter area is far bigger. Traffic and transport don't neatly line up with administrative boundaries.

The Tories (probably Lib Dems too) in the Home Counties won't like it but really there should be bold reforms so everyone around London can pay in to the transport authority as well as get accountability as the services do affect our lives. If TFL gets to run more railways that cross into neighbouring counties, then this question of accountability and who pays what and who provides what will only grow.

A bit like if the Overground reaches Stevenage and Welwyn, it needs to benefit both people using the London stations AND the Herts stations. As the commuter area is so large, ideally it would be one regional authority as none of the Home Counties have a rail network that can function in isolation.

Given Epping Forest District's transport is dominated by TFL, they should get a say as any London Borough would, it affects the residents in the same way. I think you are right though, many of these MPs and Councillors want their cake and to eat it too though.

There's a whole question of political accountability - the administrative and political boundaries need to be aligned with each other.

Which takes us back to the OP - where the suspicion has to be that the MP's Facebook posts are tied to the politics around Epping, and the desire of the Tories to undermine Labour authority.

 

[bramling]

There's a whole question of political accountability - the administrative and political boundaries need to be aligned with each other.

Which takes us back to the OP - where the suspicion has to be that the MP's Facebook posts are tied to the politics around Epping, and the desire of the Tories to undermine Labour authority.

There’s nothing like a politician whipping up a bit of local or regional victimhood. Notwithstanding whether the Central Line service has been poor (which there’s no doubt it has), there’s no reason why Epping or Hainault should get a worse service than the other. I’m sure passengers on the Hainault branch feel every train seems to be an Epping one.

As ever the problem in this country seems to be that politicians have become the cause of problems rather than the solution to them.

 

[35B]

There’s nothing like a politician whipping up a bit of local or regional victimhood. Notwithstanding whether the Central Line service has been poor (which there’s no doubt it has), there’s no reason why Epping or Hainault should get a worse service than the other. I’m sure passengers on the Hainault branch feel every train seems to be an Epping one.

As ever the problem in this country seems to be that politicians have become the cause of problems rather than the solution to them.

I think the significance of Epping in this is more than just the Central Line.

 

[Mattplans]

Tottenham Hale to Cheshunt goes from zone 3 to 8 despite taking just 8 to 10 minutes which doesn't seem right.

But it goes through a number of stations non-stop? I imagine these are in zone 4, 5 and 6?

 

[AM9]

There’s nothing like a politician whipping up a bit of local or regional victimhood. Notwithstanding whether the Central Line service has been poor (which there’s no doubt it has), there’s no reason why Epping or Hainault should get a worse service than the other. I’m sure passengers on the Hainault branch feel every train seems to be an Epping one.

As ever the problem in this country seems to be that politicians have become the cause of problems rather than the solution to them.

Living in Herts where the nearest LU termini are about one third (Watford Met) and a half (Stanmore Jubilee) of the distance to central London, I think that taking from the local authority to TfL would be inappropriate. I doubt that many rail users rely on LU services outside of zones 1-3 when the mainline services is so much better (20 mins to zone 1, 4tph (off-peak) and all-night trains on most days. Indeed, if anything like typical Thameslink loadings were made via the Met and Jubilee, there would be bitter complaints of severe overcrowding from NW London residents for using their trains as far south as Wembley.
Out of interest, when LT covered Central Line stations from Epping all the way to Ongar as well as route 339 country buses there and 396s from Epping all the way to Bishops Stortford. Does anybody here know how these services were paid for and by who.

 

[xtmw]

TTN 37/25 states on weekends:

West Ruislip - Epping every 6-7 minutes
Ealing - Hainault every 9-11 minutes
White City - Hainault every 8 minutes
which creates a 5 minute service Leytonstone - Hainault

I have looked through TTN37/25 for weekdays, and looks roughly the same, obviously less trains after the PM peak and not necessarily always correct as cancellations and changes in service are bound to happen.

 

[CastlebarKeith]

I find it a bit bizarre that the Epping MP mentions graffiti on the Central Line
Is he sure that none of his own constituents are responsible for it?

 

[rmHawk765]

A bit like if the Overground reaches Stevenage and Welwyn, it needs to benefit both people using the London stations AND the Herts stations. As the commuter area is so large, ideally it would be one regional authority as none of the Home Counties have a rail network that can function in isolation.

TfL does have a track record of considerably improving suburban heavy rail, so in my opinion the proposed takeover will benefit both London and Herts users. GTR can absolutely make improvements themselves, but we've had over 4 years of post-COVID promises to return the previous service levels with nothing actually being done, and in addition, GTR has been unacceptably unreliable for quite some time, arguably since their inception. You could argue that adding yet another operator will not help, but in my view, taking the busiest ECML South services and separating them into an operator designed for that will actually benefit everyone. TfL will have its own pool of drivers, not reliant on GTR, and has experience with improving and running high-frequency suburban rail. GTR will therefore need less drivers (an issue it has continually struggled with) and can focus on improving the core Thameslink & Great Northern services.

That said, this may create a sort of discrepancy between Herts users. Those slightly further out will be stuck with GTR's likely worse service levels compared to those in the Stevenage, Hertford and Welwyn areas. Of course, as you say, it is preferable to just have everything under one nationalised operator (NSE anyone?), to avoid this sort of thing. You could say GTR is already one operator, but that doesn't change the fact that they offer a subpar service, and of course they also have a large part of the southern region to manage. Even so all I can think of this resulting in is more pressure being put on GTR to sort itself out, which will not really negatively impact anyone.

This is getting a bit off-topic though, I think this should be put into its own thread if discussion continues.

 

[RM1_Enthusiast]

Dr Neil Hudson has also made a speech at Parliament right before Christmas regarding the issues on the Central Line and he said

“Folk in Epping Forest also have some words for the Transport Secretary too. The Central Line is consistently delayed and overcrowded, over hot in summer, with screeching rail noise levels.

The trains are in need of modernisation, all compounded by horrendous graffiti like something out of Gotham City, which is getting worse by the day. If we want investment, could the Transport Secretary please have a word with the Mayor of London for investment in the Central Line and deterrents for graffiti.”

Epping Forest MP champions urgent Central Line improvements in House of Commons Debate

Epping Forest MP Dr Neil Hudson has used his response to the Autumn Budget to insist that the Government address the poor performance and quality of Central Line Services by prioritising investment.

www.neilhudson.org.uk

Then Dr Neil Hudson also has commented further on the service that his constituents are receiving on the central line in his speech as well

“Unfortunately, when it comes to Central Line services, Labour has simply sat on their hands while services continue to be unacceptably poor.

"Delays, overcrowding, ear-scraping noise levels, and ugly graffiti blighting services like something from Gotham City are absolutely not acceptable.

"Improvements are needed as a matter of urgency. My constituents deserve better, and I will not stop raising this until the level of service my Epping Forest constituents deserve is being provided.”

 

[35B]

Dr Neil Hudson has also made a speech at Parliament right before Christmas regarding the issues on the Central Line and he said

Epping Forest MP champions urgent Central Line improvements in House of Commons Debate

Epping Forest MP Dr Neil Hudson has used his response to the Autumn Budget to insist that the Government address the poor performance and quality of Central Line Services by prioritising investment.

www.neilhudson.org.uk

Then Dr Neil Hudson also has commented further on the service that his constituents are receiving on the central line in his speech as well

Language that reinforces my certainty that this is less to do with his constituents' service, and far more to do with mounting attacks on Khan.

 

[alex397]

I’m someone that grew up in the Epping Forest area. Where there’s plentiful London Underground services and London Buses. Looking back, it seems completely bizarre that somewhere completely outside of London gets such a service. It’s also very wierd that tiny Central Line trains serve suburban and rural stations built for mainline trains.
I really think people in Epping Forest should be very grateful for what they get. They strive to be outside of London but very much want the TfL level of service.

This maybe warrants another thread, but l wonder how Epping Forest ended up in Essex rather than the London Borough of Redbridge

 

[NCT]

Surely this suggests either of 2 things. London's boundaries are not fit for purpose as the full built up area isn't under London or that TFL should have different boundaries to Greater London as the commuter area is far bigger. Traffic and transport don't neatly line up with administrative boundaries.

The Tories (probably Lib Dems too) in the Home Counties won't like it but really there should be bold reforms so everyone around London can pay in to the transport authority as well as get accountability as the services do affect our lives. If TFL gets to run more railways that cross into neighbouring counties, then this question of accountability and who pays what and who provides what will only grow.

A bit like if the Overground reaches Stevenage and Welwyn, it needs to benefit both people using the London stations AND the Herts stations. As the commuter area is so large, ideally it would be one regional authority as none of the Home Counties have a rail network that can function in isolation.

Given Epping Forest District's transport is dominated by TFL, they should get a say as any London Borough would, it affects the residents in the same way. I think you are right though, many of these MPs and Councillors want their cake and to eat it too though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2026 ==


I assumed Essex paid towards zone 6 in Epping/ Debden too. As another zone 8 resident (other side of Herts) definitely declaring an interest. Tottenham Hale to Cheshunt goes from zone 3 to 8 despite taking just 8 to 10 minutes which doesn't seem right.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2026 ==


Really the system should be changed so neighbouring areas do pay towards London's transport. Then we could benefit from better services, concessions etc. Always going to be messy while Greater London doesn't align with the London Built up area.

Please don't turn every thread into a boundary review crusade ...

 

[CastlebarKeith]

This reminds me of the situation when Ken Livingstone's "Fares Fair" policy was ended (was it 50 years ago?) because one London borough (Bromley I think) challenged it because they had no UndergrounD stations in the borough and were not prepared to "subsidise" inner London boroughs that do.

"When history repeats itself, the price always goes up"

 

[edwin_m]

I find it a bit bizarre that the Epping MP mentions graffiti on the Central Line
Is he sure that none of his own constituents are responsible for it?

Epping Fail!

 

[35B]

I’m someone that grew up in the Epping Forest area. Where there’s plentiful London Underground services and London Buses. Looking back, it seems completely bizarre that somewhere completely outside of London gets such a service. It’s also very wierd that tiny Central Line trains serve suburban and rural stations built for mainline trains.
I really think people in Epping Forest should be very grateful for what they get. They strive to be outside of London but very much want the TfL level of service.

This maybe warrants another thread, but l wonder how Epping Forest ended up in Essex rather than the London Borough of Redbridge

The Forest has a long and complex history, leading to it being administered by the City of London

 

[alex397]

The Forest has a long and complex history, leading to it being administered by the City of London

I was talking about the Epping Forest district, not the actual Epping Forest. The City of London have no jurisdiction over the district of Epping Forest, expect the areas of the forest.

 

[Recessio]

How do the wait times at Epping currently compare to the termini on other lines on the Underground? And especially those termini at similar distances from Central London? Are they actually any worse than the other lines?

 

[Crithylum]

How do the wait times at Epping currently compare to the termini on other lines on the Underground? And especially those termini at similar distances from Central London? Are they actually any worse than the other lines?

Upminster is a similar distance away, in zone 6, with 12 LU trains per hour, plus C2C. However, they are in London so pay London taxes (unlike Epping).

 

[aron2smith]

But it goes through a number of stations non-stop? I imagine these are in zone 4, 5 and 6?

I think there's 7 stations within 5 zones. Each station or 2 seems to have its own zone which seems unusual. So Northumberland Park and Meridian Water (zone 4 - but most trains skip these), Ponders End and Brimsdown (zone 5), Enfield Lock (zone 6) and Waltham Cross (zone 7) then Cheshunt (zone 8) in a space of 8 miles. Wondering if some of the zones should be merged at this point as fares are pretty similar. Cuffley up the road, is a similar distance out of London and yet thrown in zone 9 even though the next stop, Crews Hill is zone 6.

So seeing Buckhurst Hill in zone 5 and all stations from Loughton to Epping in zone 6 seems really artificial by comparison.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2026 ==

There's a whole question of political accountability - the administrative and political boundaries need to be aligned with each other.

Which takes us back to the OP - where the suspicion has to be that the MP's Facebook posts are tied to the politics around Epping, and the desire of the Tories to undermine Labour authority.

It is definitely tied to politics but for anyone to say he has no right to complain and residents just be grateful as they happen to be outside London is not right. The whole situation is fundamentally flawed. A city the size of London didn't get here on its own, it always depended on neighbouring areas growing with it to an extent.

 

[35B]

It is definitely tied to politics but for anyone to say he has no right to complain and residents just be grateful as they happen to be outside London is not right. The whole situation is fundamentally flawed. A city the size of London didn't get here on its own, it always depended on neighbouring areas growing with it to an extent.

I agree, users of a service are entitled to complain - directly or through their elected representatives.

Those complaints need to be in good faith - and Neil Hudson’s were not.

 

[Djgr]

Really the system should be changed so neighbouring areas do pay towards London's transport. Then we could benefit from better services, concessions etc. Always going to be messy while Greater London doesn't align with the London Built up area.

There are always political, economic and, indeed, moral issues where people don't live where they obtain their income.

The Home Counties dormitory towns are probably the best known but, for example, Greater Manchester has the likes of Wilmslow playing this game.

I think that there is a fundamental principle that transport benefits should be focused on those who pay for them either through fare income or local taxation.

 

[aron2smith]

I agree, users of a service are entitled to complain - directly or through their elected representatives.

Those complaints need to be in good faith - and Neil Hudson’s were not.

I agree, it isn't just the Tories who do this but they seem to like being like this for some reason. Almost like they have a chip on their shoulder. What I see as being deliberately obstructionist. Try and make a massive deal out of things and then offer no solutions even though they are part of the original problem. For some reason, London isn't allowed to just be, it's a political football where government mucks it about.

I'll never forgive them for how they treated TFL during Covid. National rail and private bus companies funded seemingly no questions asked. London, lets play a game of who will blink first, if TFL goes bankrupt as it nearly did in 2022, no big deal! Seemingly just because it had a Labour Mayor! I remember the buses were made free to use for over a year to protect the drivers (no reader by the 2nd door where people had to enter), while the tube was still at least every 5 to 7 minutes on most lines despite a total collapse in demand. The vast majority of the network ran in very difficult circumstances. By the time things started to recover, there was no capacity left for issues like the 1992 stock and graffiti. It's made we are only just replacing the 1973 stock really.

Just seems like any Tory MP has short memories when it comes to their parties record. The government was supposed to ensure stability during Covid and for London and its transport, seemingly and deliberately, it did not.

 

[renegademaster]

Where does this weird sentiment come from that only the Tories ever complain about problems when in opposition?

Labour where doing the exact same stuff Boris Johnson was mayor. It's how a democracy is meant to work. It's a not a bad thing that politicians from an opposition party are incentivised to criticise a government! Would you rather everyone be silenced unless they are "good faith" enough?

The Tories (probably Lib Dems too) in the Home Counties won't like it

The problem is that Khan won't really like either as it would make London Labour's position more teneous adding Lib dem and Tory/Reform areas, especially if London goes back to ranked voting for the mayor.

Theirs too many vested interests so it would need to be forced from above but the government are going to wait for the much delayed unitary authority reforms to be finished before trying to tackle London. The problem then being their will be an election coming up by the time the current reforms are finished, and they won't want to make any more enemies, so It'll be kicked down the road again.

 

[aron2smith]

There are always political, economic and, indeed, moral issues where people don't live where they obtain their income.

The Home Counties dormitory towns are probably the best known but, for example, Greater Manchester has the likes of Wilmslow playing this game.

I think that there is a fundamental principle that transport benefits should be focused on those who pay for them either through fare income or local taxation.

I think this is why I go on about the boundaries, an ideal transport system would be responsive to a city's full built up area and areas where major traffic exist. Even if different counties or companies provided the services further out. I see it in a utilitarian way. The problem is London's transport cuts right across the commuter area currently, leading to some very uneven levels of service. Couple that with the short termism we've seen for decades, no wonder it's a disaster.

If I'm honest, I don't really understand the antagonism between a city and its hinterland, you'd think because the issues are the same, they'd want the same outcomes.

And I understand that principle, I just think traffic has to be a consideration as well.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2026 ==

Where does this weird sentiment come from that only the Tories ever complain about problems when in opposition?

Labour where doing the exact same stuff Boris Johnson was mayor. It's how a democracy is meant to work. It's a not a bad thing that politicians from an opposition party are incentivised to criticise a government! Would you rather everyone be silenced unless they are "good faith" enough?

I think with the Tories is they just appears as total hypocrites now, they ran things for long enough, exhausted themselves, created a ton of deep seated problems that will take a decade plus to fix and it's like they expect us to believe they magically have the solutions. Not a chance!

The problem is that Khan won't really like either as it would make London Labour's position more teneous adding Lib dem and Tory/Reform areas, especially if London goes back to ranked voting for the mayor.

Theirs too many vested interests so it would need to be forced from above but the government are going to wait for the much delayed unitary authority reforms to be finished before trying to tackle London. The problem then being their will be an election coming up by the time the current reforms are finished, and they won't want to make any more enemies, so It'll be kicked down the road again.

I'm not sure it's so clear cut anymore, for a long time Tories were so safe in Hertfordshire, now they no longer have the county council and run just 1 borough out of 10! Seems somewhat similar in Surrey. Also London Mayor elections are going back to ranked choice, it should never have been abolished in the first place. It was great getting a 1st choice and 2nd choice.

I agree on the 2nd point, London definitely needs reform. Makes me wonder if other Home Counties will end up like Surrey with massive general unitaries that are maybe carved up later on at some point. Also probably why LGR feels rushed, Labour tried it in the late 60s, just to lose the election, leading to the two tier system we have now. They definitely don't want that to happen again.

 

[Djgr]

If I'm honest, I don't really understand the antagonism between a city and its hinterland, you'd think because the issues are the same, they'd want the same outcomes.

I mean simplistically it's because a group of (relatively) well off people don't want to be associated with (relatively) poor people

Classic case Sefton Council (Southport v Bootle)

 

[Mgameing123]

Cheap political points scoring from an MP whose constituency is not in London and whose residents do not contribute to the running costs of London's transport network.

Actually they do. Essex County gives subsidises the Central Line to make sure Epping is in zone 6.

 

[NCT]

Actually they do. Essex County gives subsidises the Central Line to make sure Epping is in zone 6.

Already debunked upthread - post 18.

 

[Mattplans]

Perhaps Epping ought to be in an outer zone. But do note that Epping is closer to Charing Cross than some termini of the Underground that are in ‘London’ including Upminster