Starting short on advance single (with reverse ticket held)

[Crithylum]

If I wanted to travel from B to C, however the cheapest combination of tickets was B to A, then A to C on an advance single (with this train making an open call at B), if I also purchased a B to A ticket, would I be allowed to board short on the advance single from B to C?

Here are the relevant terms from NRCoT and Advance Ticket Terms and Conditions:

6.1 You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

14.2 Unless Condition 14.1 applies, you may use a combination of two or more Tickets to make a journey provided that the train services you use Call at the station(s) where you change from one Ticket to another.

As I have both tickets, and all trains call at both A and B the combination of tickets count as a single journey from B to C. With regards to 6.1, I am not starting my journey at an intermediate station, but I am starting on an intermediate leg. Notably the advance ticket conditions say "journey", not "ticket" . Also, I believe I am not "break and resume"ing my journey, as I have not started it yet. Are there any flaws in my logic?

Even if this is technically allowed, I appreciate that a train manager/RPI might not agree.

 

[bcarmicle]

It is not one I would try (though I would of course have no objection to travelling from B to A, then from A to C via B). It is certainly not what the industry intends to be valid, though I won't speak to the merits of the legal argument.

 

[jupiter]

When asked to show a ticket on the B to C leg, which ticket would you show? When asked where you got on, what would you reply?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This would be starting short on an Advance specifically to save money and is thus not advisable. Why not actually travel to A if you're paying to do so?

 

[jfollows]

Getting on at Preston with a ticket from Lancaster to London is similar I guess, and it’s both frowned on and policed. Obviously fine on an open ticket, but restrictions against break of journey - in this case on the off-peak return - can be enforced.

 

[Haywain]

Also, I believe I am not "break and resume"ing my journey,

You seem to have chosen to overlook the word "start" that precedes those words.

 

[Crithylum]

You seem to have chosen to overlook the word "start" that precedes those words.

It specifies “at any intermediate station” afterwards

 

[Howardh]

A while ago I noted that an advance return from Farnworth to Windermere (or Blackpool, apologies, can't remember!) was cheaper than Bolton to Windermere, despite Farnworth being further away. Getting on short at Bolton (or in my case, Lostock) could invalidate the advance ticket; but

- as it's a "change" station, could one could get off the Farnworth-Bolton train @ Bolton, pop outside the station for a brew, and return for the remainder of the leg?
- or if you have a free bus/rail pass, simply use that for the gate at Bolton and catch the train you have an advance ticket for legally even though it's supposed to be from Farnworth??

Of course Farnworth isn't gated and the chances of a conductor check on board are limited, so no-one would know you did/didn't take that leg.

 

[Haywain]

It specifies “at any intermediate station” afterwards

Quite. So, it should be perfectly obvious that to use an Advance ticket from A to C you may not board at station B as you will be starting or resuming your journey there, and not utilising a connection.

 

[Crithylum]

Quite. So, it should be perfectly obvious that to use an Advance ticket from A to C you may not board at station B as you will be starting or resuming your journey there, and not utilising a connection.

I should have also mentioned that it specifies “journey”, not “ticket”. This was also mentioned in the original post.

 

[Haywain]

I should have also mentioned that it specifies “journey”, not “ticket”. This was also mentioned in the original post.

I'm not sure what you are really getting at here, but from what you set out in your original post the tickets you suggest will not be valid for the suggested pattern of travel no matter how much you try and play with words.

 

[jfollows]

A while ago I noted that an advance return from Farnworth to Windermere (or Blackpool, apologies, can't remember!) was cheaper than Bolton to Windermere, despite Farnworth being further away. Getting on short at Bolton (or in my case, Lostock) could invalidate the advance ticket; but

- as it's a "change" station, could one could get off the Farnworth-Bolton train @ Bolton, pop outside the station for a brew, and return for the remainder of the leg?
- or if you have a free bus/rail pass, simply use that for the gate at Bolton and catch the train you have an advance ticket for legally even though it's supposed to be from Farnworth??

Of course Farnworth isn't gated and the chances of a conductor check on board are limited, so no-one would know you did/didn't take that leg.

Not with an advance single, no.
There is no such thing as an advance return! You presumably mean two different advance singles.

As mentioned above, if there is no intent to avoid higher fares, the guidance is to allow this sort of thing, but when you say you’re saving money then, no, it shouldn’t be allowed.

 

[Crithylum]

I'm not sure what you are really getting at here, but from what you set out in your original post the tickets you suggest will not be valid for the suggested pattern of travel no matter how much you try and play with words.

I'm not sure what you mean with your comment about "play with words". This is about the exact wording of a contract, not jumbling words about. I would like to know the exact legal position of these words, not what was intended by those making the rules. We have seen many threads in Disputes and Prosecutions of people doing reasonable things, which are technically on the wrong side of the law. Surely it must go both ways.

 

[redreni]

I'm unsure why you think an interchange station is not an intermediate station?

'Intermediate station' is not a defined term in the NRCoT, so it has its plain meaning, which I should have thought must include any station along your route between the origin and destination on your ticket? 6.1 says you can't start at an intermediate station (with what I would consider to be a superfluous exception for changing trains, which doesn't help in the case of your proposed journey as you would be starting your journey, not changing trains in accordance with your itinerary).

The fact it's an interchange station may make it harder for anyone to notice what you're doing, but I can't see a way of interpreting the rules in your favour, personally. As far as I can see you'd be liable for an excess to the cheapest walk-up fare if you did this. Perhaps I'm missing something?

 

[Crithylum]

I'm unsure why you think an interchange station is not an intermediate station?

'Intermediate station' is not a defined term in the NRCoT, so it has its plain meaning, which I should have thought must include any station along your route between the origin and destination on your ticket? 6.1 says you can't start at an intermediate station (with what I would consider to be a superfluous exception for changing trains, which doesn't help in the case of your proposed journey as you would be starting your journey, not changing trains in accordance with your itinerary).

The fact it's an interchange station may make it harder for anyone to notice what you're doing, but I can't see a way of interpreting the rules in your favour, personally. As far as I can see you'd be liable for an excess to the cheapest walk-up fare if you did this. Perhaps I'm missing something?

My thinking was that as it was the station that I started my journey, it isn't an intermediate station. Are these mutually exclusive because now that I think about it, they may not.

 

[Hadders]

What your proposing to do is not allowed. Condition 16.2 is relevent:

Unless excluded as part of a specific Ticket’s terms and conditions you may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) at any intermediate station, except as shown in Condition 16.3 below, provided that the Ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) before the destination shown on the Ticket.

Starting/finishing short with an Advance ticket is not strictly in accordance with the rules for Advance tickets, the policy of the Rail industry is that no additional fare should be charged (unless there is clear evidence of intent to try and avoid a higher fare). The problem here is that you are trying to avoid paying a higher fare and therefore you could be liable for an excess fare.

 

[Crithylum]

Starting/finishing short with an Advance ticket is not strictly in accordance with the rules for Advance tickets, the policy of the Rail industry is that no additional fare should be charged (unless there is clear evidence of intent to try and avoid a higher fare). The problem here is that you are trying to avoid paying a higher fare and therefore you could be liable for an excess fare.

The purpose of the thread was to work out whether the technicality of boarding at the station where you start your "journey" means that it technically isn't prohibited by the terms of an Advance ticket.

 

[redreni]

My thinking was that as it was the station that I started my journey, it isn't an intermediate station. Are these mutually exclusive because now that I think about it, they may not.

I see what you mean, but I think we can rule it out using the reductio method.

If the prohibition on starting at an intermediate station didn't include the station where you start, it wouldn't mean anything. I suspect if this came up in court, the TOC would say it should be read purposively, rather than in a way that would make it purposeless.

 

[Hadders]

The purpose of the thread was to work out whether the technicality of boarding at the station where you start your "journey" means that it technically isn't prohibited by the terms of an Advance ticket.

Condition 16.2 tells us that the ticket has to be valid for the trains you wish to use. My view is it wouldn't be valid because you'd be starting short with that ticket and the general terms of Advance tickets prohibut starting short.

 

[Crithylum]

Condition 16.2 tells us that the ticket has to be valid for the trains you wish to use. My view is it wouldn't be valid because you'd be starting short with that ticket and the general terms of Advance tickets prohibut starting short.

The crux of my argument is that 6.1 of the Advance ticket terms specifies "journey", not "ticket", therefore putting it into a grey area as to whether the ticket is valid for boarding at B. I've never disputed that if the ticket is invalid, the journey is invalid.

 

[tumbledown]

If I were on the jury I would interpret this ticket restriction as applying to the journey printed on the ticket, and interpret 'intermediate' likewise.

 

[Crithylum]

If I were on the jury I would interpret this ticket restriction as applying to the journey printed on the ticket, and interpret 'intermediate' likewise.

I get where you are coming from. Journey is not defined in the advance t&c, and neither in the NRCoT. I think the closest thing to a definition is that a journey (not journeys) can be made using multiple tickets (in NRCoT 14.2). I think this is an instance where the quality of your lawyer determines how "journey" is defined.

 

[redreni]

I get where you are coming from. Journey is not defined in the advance t&c, and neither in the NRCoT. I think the closest thing to a definition is that a journey (not journeys) can be made using multiple tickets (in NRCoT 14.2). I think this is an instance where the quality of your lawyer determines how "journey" is defined.

To me it's more about the definition of "intermediate station". You can't start your journey at an intermediate station. The concept of "intermediate" could be determined with respect to the actual journey made, or the full journey covered by the ticket. The problem you've got is that if it's defined by the actual journey made, that robs the restriction of any meaning, force or effect whatsoever, at least as far as it purports to proscribe starting at an intermediate station. I'd say you're on a sticky wicket.

If you want to test the water, I suggest picking a fare and a journey where the excess to the cheapest walk-up fare would be fairly cheap. If challenged, you could pay the excess (or any wrongly issued additional Anytime fare or Penalty Fare, as the case may be given the absolute state of staff training on the railway) and then raise a dispute to try to get it back.