Internal locked door - Class 700 First Class

[Vexed]

I came across an unusual situation this evening. The interior door that seperates (declassified) first class and standard class was locked on a Class 700. For those unfamiliar with the layout this means that there was only one external door available to use for people in the first class section and it wasn't possible to move between first and standard. There was me and one other person in the first class area.

I boarded at St Albans City using the very rear external door and sat down. When trying to leave at St Pancras I tried to walk down the train to get closer to the exit. I found the internal door locked and then had to go back to the only external door in first class. It was definitely locked - I could see bolts at the top and bottom of the door. There is usually a clear gap.

I'm curious what other people this of this. It's clearly a safety concern as it's impossible to evacuate down the train - would it be justified to pull the pascom/emergency alarm? I didn't even think of doing so at the time as I was just wanted to get off. Maybe if I'd have noticed mid journey it would have been appropriate to pull it during a station stop.

It looked like there was a T key hole on the door. Maybe a member of staff or someone who shouldn't have a T key but does locked it (bad) and didn't unlock it when the left (very bad).

 

[Recessio]

I came across an unusual situation this evening. The interior door that seperates (declassified) first class and standard class was locked on a Class 700. For those unfamiliar with the layout this means that there was only one external door available to use for people in the first class section and it wasn't possible to move between first and standard. There was me and one other person in the first class area.

I boarded at St Albans City using the very rear external door and sat down. When trying to leave at St Pancras I tried to walk down the train to get closer to the exit. I found the internal door locked and then had to go back to the only external door in first class. It was definitely locked - I could see bolts at the top and bottom of the door. There is usually a clear gap.

I'm curious what other people this of this. It's clearly a safety concern as it's impossible to evacuate down the train - would it be justified to pull the pascom/emergency alarm? I didn't even think of doing so at the time as I was just wanted to get off. Maybe if I'd have noticed mid journey it would have been appropriate to pull it during a station stop.

It looked like there was a T key hole on the door. Maybe a member of staff or someone who shouldn't have a T key but does locked it (bad) and didn't unlock it when the left (very bad).

I don't know about how stiff the bolts/mechanism are on a 700 internal door, but with some small T key stuff where there isn't much to the mechanism (e.g. the hopper windows on a 165/166 Turbo) it's possible for any passenger to just open and close them with a sturdy housekey or a screwdriver! Let alone staff with a T key.

 

[Vexed]

I don't know about how stiff the bolts/mechanism are on a 700 internal door, but with some small T key stuff where there isn't much to the mechanism (e.g. the hopper windows on a 165/166 Turbo) it's possible for any passenger to just open and close them with a sturdy housekey or a screwdriver! Let alone staff with a T key.

I've always looked at them and thought a Mul-T-Lock key (a rectangle end instead of the usual pointyish ends like on most keys) would fit in very well. Unfortunately I don't have one on me!

 

[bramling]

I came across an unusual situation this evening. The interior door that seperates (declassified) first class and standard class was locked on a Class 700. For those unfamiliar with the layout this means that there was only one external door available to use for people in the first class section and it wasn't possible to move between first and standard. There was me and one other person in the first class area.

I boarded at St Albans City using the very rear external door and sat down. When trying to leave at St Pancras I tried to walk down the train to get closer to the exit. I found the internal door locked and then had to go back to the only external door in first class. It was definitely locked - I could see bolts at the top and bottom of the door. There is usually a clear gap.

I'm curious what other people this of this. It's clearly a safety concern as it's impossible to evacuate down the train - would it be justified to pull the pascom/emergency alarm? I didn't even think of doing so at the time as I was just wanted to get off. Maybe if I'd have noticed mid journey it would have been appropriate to pull it during a station stop.

It looked like there was a T key hole on the door. Maybe a member of staff or someone who shouldn't have a T key but does locked it (bad) and didn't unlock it when the left (very bad).

Certainly shouldn’t be the case, if the door was locked for a particular reason then the side doors should also have been locked out of use to make the section completely inaccessible. I have seen staff lock out the first on the Rainham route, presumably as a way of reducing troublemakers occupying it.

Given the time of year, I wouldn’t be entirely surprised to find a miscreant had done it. On the flip side of the coin, you said you had a peaceful undisturbed journey so I’d have been turning a blind eye to it, on the basis that the chances of a fire occurring is so minimal as to not be worth worrying about - no different to being in compartment stock of the past.

 

[Russel]

On the flip side of the coin, you said you had a peaceful undisturbed journey so I’d have been turning a blind eye to it, on the basis that the chances of a fire occurring is so minimal as to not be worth worrying about - no different to being in compartment stock of the past.

This is a very level headed response, there is a tendency to jump to worst case or very niche scenario and get a bit carried away with it on here at times.

 

[Warrior2852]

This would be a problem for anyone stuck in there for a short platform station!

 

[Vexed]

This is a very level headed response, there is a tendency to jump to worst case or very niche scenario and get a bit carried away with it on here at times.

I know I mentioned possibly pulling the pascom at a station stop but the result of that (driver having to walk 12 carriages and back) would make me think twice! When writing that last night I was annoyed with "the railway" after standing in the temporary queuing system at Marylebone combined with a short notice platform announcement, so probably not thinking fully straight.

In hindsight the only tangible issues are getting to a toilet (not many long non stop sections so can always do that via a platform) and short platforms

This would be a problem for anyone stuck in there for a short platform station!

Which would have happened at Balcombe.

 

[ChilliSauce]

I came across an unusual situation this evening. The interior door that seperates (declassified) first class and standard class was locked on a Class 700. For those unfamiliar with the layout this means that there was only one external door available to use for people in the first class section and it wasn't possible to move between first and standard. There was me and one other person in the first class area.

I boarded at St Albans City using the very rear external door and sat down. When trying to leave at St Pancras I tried to walk down the train to get closer to the exit. I found the internal door locked and then had to go back to the only external door in first class. It was definitely locked - I could see bolts at the top and bottom of the door. There is usually a clear gap.

I'm curious what other people this of this. It's clearly a safety concern as it's impossible to evacuate down the train - would it be justified to pull the pascom/emergency alarm? I didn't even think of doing so at the time as I was just wanted to get off. Maybe if I'd have noticed mid journey it would have been appropriate to pull it during a station stop.

It looked like there was a T key hole on the door. Maybe a member of staff or someone who shouldn't have a T key but does locked it (bad) and didn't unlock it when the left (very bad).

I have experienced something very similar in that upon trying to board a class 700 at City Thameslink I found the platform edge doors into the 1st class carriage (front coach) locked and further the internal door into the 1st Class also locked out of use.

A complaint to Thameslink produced a rather useless response claiming that sometimes it's necessary to declassify a train ..
But of course it wasn't 1st class declassified as no one could sit in.

Given the failure of Thameslink to provide their advertised 1st class service I submitted a repay request ...

 

[bramling]

I have experienced something very similar in that upon trying to board a class 700 at City Thameslink I found the platform edge doors into the 1st class carriage (front coach) locked and further the internal door into the 1st Class also locked out of use.

A complaint to Thameslink produced a rather useless response claiming that sometimes it's necessary to declassify a train ..
But of course it wasn't 1st class declassified as no one could sit in.

Given the failure of Thameslink to provide their advertised 1st class service I submitted a repay request ...

Was it a Rainham train? I’ve seen drivers lock out first on these services, which I assume is a way of avoiding antisocial behaviour. I can well imagine first is a magnet for this on that route.

 

[Mattplans]

Was it a Rainham train? I’ve seen drivers lock out first on these services, which I assume is a way of avoiding antisocial behaviour. I can well imagine first is a magnet for this on that route.

Is the Rainham route problematic? Where-abouts on the route?

I don’t really think this is a valid reason to restrict areas of the train, unless it is in response to a specific incident.

 

[jon0844]

It's been known to shut first class behind the driver cab when people have been smoking (especially weed) as the alternative is to refuse to take the train any further.

I would say Rainham trains are pretty much competing with Sevenoaks trains for anti social behaviour.

 

[bramling]

Is the Rainham route problematic? Where-abouts on the route?

Everything between London and Rainham.

I don’t really think this is a valid reason to restrict areas of the train, unless it is in response to a specific incident.

if a train conveys first and isn’t booked to do so, it can be locked out (providing this doesn’t contravene any other procedures). This used to happen on Ashford-Hastings in DEMU days for the same reason, in an attempt to stop the compartments getting trashed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jan 2026 ==

It's been known to shut first class behind the driver cab when people have been smoking (especially weed) as the alternative is to refuse to take the train any further.

I’ve seen this happen a lot at London Bridge in the evenings on Rainham trains. I don’t use Rainham trains, but have seen them in the platform at London Bridge with the locking out being implemented by the driver, or come through with the rear first locked out.

 

[Russel]

It's been known to shut first class behind the driver cab when people have been smoking (especially weed) as the alternative is to refuse to take the train any further.

I would say Rainham trains are pretty much competing with Sevenoaks trains for anti social behaviour.

If only we had some kind of properly funded, fully manned law enforcement agency that could clamp down on this kind of thing...

Just imagine...

 

[ChilliSauce]

It's been known to shut first class behind the driver cab when people have been smoking (especially weed) as the alternative is to refuse to take the train any further.

I would say Rainham trains are pretty much competing with Sevenoaks trains for anti social behaviour.

Trouble is the Operator GTR is not dealing with the problem of antisocial behaviour ...they are just trying to hide it away. Almost certainly those in 1st committing antisocial behaviour will not hold 1st class tickets ..if they have any ticket at all. Sounds like it needs a hard crack down by Revenue Protection for a prolonged period ..

 

[Horizon22]

Is the Rainham route problematic? Where-abouts on the route?

North Kent line has long been notorious for on-train anti-social behaviour and Southeatern suffers from the same issues.

 

[Mattplans]

North Kent line has long been notorious for on-train anti-social behaviour and Southeatern suffers from the same issues.

That's interesting. I am aware of some issues historically, but assumed it was less of an issue nowadays. Are the routes via Sidcup/Bexleyheath similarly problematic? I feel like all of the Southeastern routes out of London must be problematic to some extent

If only we had some kind of properly funded, fully manned law enforcement agency that could clamp down on this kind of thing...

I imagine that it doesn't help that on the Sevenoaks/Rainham routes there are about 4-5 stations with ticket gates and the route has about 19-22 stops. But I'm not sure that stands for much, the Elizabeth Line east of Stratford still faces significant anti-social behaviour issues despite all the staff.

if a train conveys first and isn’t booked to do so, it can be locked out (providing this doesn’t contravene any other procedures). This used to happen on Ashford-Hastings in DEMU days for the same reason, in an attempt to stop the compartments getting trashed.

And if it doesn't have first? Is it still acceptable to lock off parts of the train just as a preventative measure, when nothing has actually gone wrong yet? I'm not sure I totally agree with the idea of reducing train capacity just in case somebody decides to act up. On the matter of a "train conveying first when not booked", Rainham trains never have first class. Does this endorse the driver to lock up the front and rear first class on every trip? I think locking parts of the train should be reactive rather than proactive, otherwise what's the point in running the service at all..?

Trouble is the Operator GTR is not dealing with the problem of antisocial behaviour ...they are just trying to hide it away. Almost certainly those in 1st committing antisocial behaviour will not hold 1st class tickets ..if they have any ticket at all. Sounds like it needs a hard crack down by Revenue Protection for a prolonged period ..

To their credit.... Southeastern manages the bulk of these stations with no ticket gates. And on the Catford Loop I have personally seen 'Travel Safe Officers' security guard types after the evening peak. I had assumed this was due to the lack of staff at the stations between Peckham Rye and Bromley South after the evening peak. I guess these Travel Safe Officers are intended to provide some sort of visual comfort to those who feel uncomfortable travelling at night and of course intervening should anything go wrong. That said I do recall seeing posters at a station on the Catford loop saying staffing hours at some of the stations on the route managed by Thameslink are being extended.

 

[jon0844]

I don't know much about the Rainham line but the issue to Sevenoaks is often fully uniformed school kids who do ridiculous things. Besides the smoking issue (I assume the driver shuts off the compartment only if someone does it, not in case they do it) the other issues are trespassing and smashing or even operating the egress panels (which is why 700s are being converted to have stickers instead of perspex covers that get smashed daily).

Clearly the doors to first class need to be locked too if the internal door is locked so the entire section is clear but perhaps a driver locked it one way and forgot to reopen the internal door when going back. Obviously that's just an assumption.

I've been on the train from Sevenoaks a couple of times (Sevenoaks itself is a nice place) but the kids seem somewhat feral - albeit more so at some of the other stations nearby.

I've not been to Gillingham or Rainham for some years and part of that is because of experiencing the same issues around 2010. When I used to go to Gillingham a bit to meet a friend who lived there, kids used to play with traffic too. It was quite unbelievable! By the sound of it, they've had kids by now who aren't much better.

 

[londonteacher]

To be honest the bashing of Medway on here is quite ridiculous. I have lived in Medway from 2022 after living in Plumstead so have been a user of the Thameslink service for commuting since it began when I worked in Slade Green. There were more issues on the trains with drugs and antisocial behaviour between Deptford and Charlton than I see in the Medway towns. The toilets were pretty much always a no go as someone was hiding in their for the entirity of their journey - one can only assume as to what they were doing.

Yes, Medway does have its issues but all of the stations in the area - Strood, Rochester, Gillingham and Rainham - are gated in the most part and are staffed in most cases until the end of the service with the barriers closed. Very different to stations in the London area that the service calls at.

The issue is there is no enforcement of laws and behaviours on the trains. A more regular patrol by BTP, or if they are not available/funded properly then the Met or Kent police would be beneficial. But, I do have to say I regularly travel on this service late at night and very rarely see an issue. Tend to see more issues, from my experience, on the Southeastern service via Medway from Victoria.

Trouble is the Operator GTR is not dealing with the problem of antisocial behaviour ...they are just trying to hide it away. Almost certainly those in 1st committing antisocial behaviour will not hold 1st class tickets ..if they have any ticket at all. Sounds like it needs a hard crack down by Revenue Protection for a prolonged period .

The service to Rainham does not have first class advertised, as can be seen on the Thameslink website and on Realtime Trains.

 

[pdeaves]

Is it still acceptable to lock off parts of the train just as a preventative measure, when nothing has actually gone wrong yet?

This heads towards 'darned if you do, darned if you don't' territory. Is it better to wait for an incident before doing something, or take pre-emptive action to avoid an incident? There's pros and cons either way; someone has to take that decision. Evidently in this specific case, that someone decided the best course of action is pre-emptive.

 

[DavyCrocket]

I’ve been in or seen quite a few 700 recently where the front first class has been locked both inside and the outside doors show as door not in use. At a time I was by one to a terminus to see if it was the opened up again.

 

[bengley]

I used to be a TL driver. I always used to lock out the front first class (behind me) after about 9pm. It was always full of people who didn't have first class tickets, being irritating and causing a distraction with loud rowdiness or playing audio from devices out loud.

 

[Russel]

I used to be a TL driver. I always used to lock out the front first class (behind me) after about 9pm. It was always full of people who didn't have first class tickets, being irritating and causing a distraction with loud rowdiness or playing audio from devices out loud.

Never mind having first class tickets, they probably didn't have any tickets.

 

[jon0844]

Never mind having first class tickets, they probably didn't have any tickets.

Drivers won't give a stuff about tickets being held (and first is declassified both ends on both Rainham and Sevenoaks services operated by Thameslink) but if kids are being anti social and smoking weed etc, then I can see why they'd rather do this than simply stand down and terminate wherever they are.

I'm sure passengers would prefer this as the lesser of two evils, but obviously better policing is the ideal outcome. Let's be real though - that isn't going to happen. I bet police and TSOs are not going to want to waste their time.

 

[RiverDon]

If the passengers behind the driver are smoking weed, playing music, banging on the door etc.. causing a distraction then absolutely locking out first class is appropriate and the driver is much less likely to encounter trouble if its done proactively before the problem starts rather than trying to kick out a gang of tanked up scrotes halfway through a journey.

I'd have no hesitation doing this if I thought it was going to be a problem. It's either that or cancel the service altogether if the train can't be driven safely because of distractions. As a trainee so far I have only had it once with someone (by the look of them they were coked up) playing loud music and screaming and banging the armrests in first class directly behind me in a 170 and it was incredibly distracting. Luckily they were only on for one stop.

 

[Jan Mayen]

This thread is an interesting read, and perhaps explains why I haven't been able to sit in First Class on the Brighton line a couple of times this week (at the front, with a First Class ALR).

 

[Russel]

Drivers won't give a stuff about tickets being held (and first is declassified both ends on both Rainham and Sevenoaks services operated by Thameslink)

Yes, I'm aware of that, I was simply stating that they probably didn't hold any tickets, let alone first class.

 

[weeklycommuter]

This thread is an interesting read, and perhaps explains why I haven't been able to sit in First Class on the Brighton line a couple of times this week (at the front, with a First Class ALR).

I conclude First Class should be removed completely from all Thameslink services. Then the front area with 26 seats on the Class 700 train can be locked out of use whenever necessary. If it has to be locked out of use on a train service which is advertised as including First Class any holders of First Class tickets who use that train service would have to be compensated for being unable to sit in a First Class seat.

 

[Deepgreen]

Very simply - whatever the rights and wrongs of locking out parts of trains, just make sure access cannot be gained from outside too. Let's also be honest here - the first class issue on 700s has always been a problem - not enforced in my experience, and really not helpful to have one section in use in whichever direction of travel. The messages to advise about it are buried in the plethora of other messages so there is a very good chance of missing it unless you stare at the screens for minutes on end. There should be a permanent and very clear illuminated sign saying 'first class in operation' or similar in each section as appropriate so that it is immediately obvious. Or just remove it completely. At the moment it is a mess.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2026 ==

I conclude First Class should be removed completely from all Thameslink services. Then the front area with 26 seats on the Class 700 train can be locked out of use whenever necessary. If it has to be locked out of use on a train service which is advertised as including First Class any holders of First Class tickets who use that train service would have to be compensated for being unable to sit in a First Class seat.

If 700s had their first class removed, then the internal doors would surely come off too, thus not making the sections any more attractive for anti-socials.

 

[RiverDon]

Maybe a better solution would be upgrading the wall between the cab and the coach from thin plywood to something actually soundproof and weed smoke proof. Or having a space or non public section of the train or something. Drivers need peace and quiet to drive without distractions.

 

[Deepgreen]

Maybe a better solution would be upgrading the wall between the cab and the coach from thin plywood to something actually soundproof and weed smoke proof. Or having a space or non public section of the train or something. Drivers need peace and quiet to drive without distractions.

So, effectively legitimise the behaviour?