Why were the HAPs 2 carriages?

[Timmyd]

Is there anywhere I can find internal pictures of the SE slam door units? I have lots of memories from childhoood but they’re all a bit vague!

 

[nw1]

The original stoppers split (offpeak) as already stated, the Maidstone "fast" (xx49/55 from Vic) didn't, nor did the additional Gillingham stopper introduced after 1967 - I've seen that through Shortlands as a solo 2HAP!

To add to that, in 1981 the xx13 Maidstone East/Faversham split, the xx49 Gillingham and xx54 Margate via Maidstone/Ashford did not.
It was however an asymmetric service, for in the up direction, it was the Gillingham and not the Faversham that combined with the Maidstone East.

There were a good number of HAPs on the xx13 services but also a few CEPs and VEPs (combined with HAPs). Some of the portions of the splitters were single 2HAPs (e.g 1113 RP to Faversham and 1313 FP to Maidstone East).

This was the last year this somewhat quirky timetable ran, with the more familiar 80s and 90s pattern of a clockface half-hourly stopper alternating Ramsgate and Dover, immediately behind the semi-fasts and looped at Faversham to allow connections from the next semi-fast, coming in from 1982.

 

[Tony73E]

I've definitely read somewhere that the 205's were built with the possibility of conversion into HAP's.



I'm a bit surprised that gangways weren't adopted earlier to enable on board revenue protection. I guess a lot more stations were staffed then.

You could have used the driving and intermediate trailers but the motor coaches would have needed traction control equipment and a motor generator set. The motor coach body would have needed rebuilding to provide more passenger accommodation. Not forgetting DEMU's we're 90v electrics compared to 70v on EMU's. Plus the motor bogie would still have been under the back end of the motor coach.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I've definitely read somewhere that the 205's were built with the possibility of conversion into HAP's.



I'm a bit surprised that gangways weren't adopted earlier to enable on board revenue protection. I guess a lot more stations were staffed then.

Even as late as 1962, 4EPBs, 2HAPs and East Sussex diesels (and AM8 ac units) were being built that were not even gangwayed throughout individual carriages (full-width compartments, or the various semi-open arrangements - two open salonns with a full width partition between them), so gangways between carriages, let alone units, would not have helped much.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Dec 2025 ==

I've definitely read somewhere that the 205's were built with the possibility of conversion into HAP's.

There were some conversuions the other way (EMU vehicles used in DEMUs). former EPB driving trailers matched with hasting DM and trailer to from the "tadpole" units, and when those were disbanded in 1979 the ex EPB driving trailers were formed in the middle of the remaining 2H units to make them up to 3-car (most 2Hs had been augmented to 3-car by 1959, but four(1119-1122) remained as 2-car until 1980.

 

[yorksrob]

You could have used the driving and intermediate trailers but the motor coaches would have needed traction control equipment and a motor generator set. The motor coach body would have needed rebuilding to provide more passenger accommodation. Not forgetting DEMU's we're 90v electrics compared to 70v on EMU's. Plus the motor bogie would still have been under the back end of the motor coach.

Yes, it would have been a lot of work. Not surprising that they never did it.

Even as late as 1962, 4EPBs, 2HAPs and East Sussex diesels (and AM8 ac units) were being built that were not even gangwayed throughout individual carriages (full-width compartments, or the various semi-open arrangements - two open salonns with a full width partition between them), so gangways between carriages, let alone units, would not have helped much.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Dec 2025 ==


There were some conversuions the other way (EMU vehicles used in DEMUs). former EPB driving trailers matched with hasting DM and trailer to from the "tadpole" units, and when those were disbanded in 1979 the ex EPB driving trailers were formed in the middle of the remaining 2H units to make them up to 3-car (most 2Hs had been augmented to 3-car by 1959, but four(1119-1122) remained as 2-car until 1980.

Ah yes, the old Tadpoles.

I remember seeing that the intermediate trailer coach from the experimentally refurbished 205 ended up in an EPB. Probably its busiest time !

 

[Gloster]

I remember seeing that the intermediate trailer coach from the experimentally refurbished 205 ended up in an EPB. Probably its busiest time !

If that is TS 60660 then it appears that it only ran when a passenger vehicle with an EPB when being transferred immediately after refurbishment. Later on it became a Sandite vehicle, so it may well have run with one then.

From a quick look at Blood & Custard.

 

[30907]

To add to that, in 1981 the xx13 Maidstone East/Faversham split, the xx49 Gillingham and xx54 Margate via Maidstone/Ashford did not.
It was however an asymmetric service, for in the up direction, it was the Gillingham and not the Faversham that combined with the Maidstone East.

I must check - was that asymmetry the same 10 years earlier, as the times were otherwise identical?

 

[yorksrob]

If that is TS 60660 then it appears that it only ran when a passenger vehicle with an EPB when being transferred immediately after refurbishment. Later on it became a Sandite vehicle, so it may well have run with one then.

From a quick look at Blood & Custard.

Was that the refurbishment of the other carriages in the 90's to take thd CEP trailer ? If so, the timeframes check out.

 

[nw1]

I must check - was that asymmetry the same 10 years earlier, as the times were otherwise identical?

Unfortunately I have no idea - the only documents I have are from 1981, the ABC Rail Guide on Timetable World and a CWN kindly sent to me by another forum member.

One other thing I will add, related to one of your earlier comments, on the subject of HAPs is that the 1349 and 1449 Victoria-Gillingham, and their corresponding incoming workings, the 1159 and 1259 Faversham-Victoria, respectively, were both single 2HAP units throughout (as stated above these were the non-dividers). It's been rare through recent history for a "Southern Region" mainline service to be just 2 carriages throughout, even in the off-peak.

 

[30907]

Unfortunately I have no idea - the only documents I have are from 1981, the ABC Rail Guide on Timetable World and a CWN kindly sent to me by another forum member.

One other thing I will add, related to one of your earlier comments, on the subject of HAPs is that the 1349 and 1449 Victoria-Gillingham, and their corresponding incoming workings, the 1159 and 1259 Faversham-Victoria, respectively, were both single 2HAP units throughout (as stated above these were the non-dividers). It's been rare through recent history for a "Southern Region" mainline service to be just 2 carriages throughout, even in the off-peak.

Yes, I must say I was surprised to see one such a few years earlier.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Unfortunately I have no idea - the only documents I have are from 1981, the ABC Rail Guide on Timetable World and a CWN kindly sent to me by another forum member.

One other thing I will add, related to one of your earlier comments, on the subject of HAPs is that the 1349 and 1449 Victoria-Gillingham, and their corresponding incoming workings, the 1159 and 1259 Faversham-Victoria, respectively, were both single 2HAP units throughout (as stated above these were the non-dividers). It's been rare through recent history for a "Southern Region" mainline service to be just 2 carriages throughout, even in the off-peak.

Weren't off-peak Uckfield class 171s 2 carriages at some point? Though whether Uckfield is a main line any more is debatable.

 

[30907]

Weren't off-peak Uckfield class 171s 2 carriages at some point? Though whether Uckfield is a main line any more is debatable.

Was it ever? A through route from Tonbridge to Brighton with occasional semi-fast London trains for nearly all its life.

 

[Taunton]

Weren't off-peak Uckfield class 171s 2 carriages at some point? Though whether Uckfield is a main line any more is debatable.

They are main line when running London Bridge to East Croydon! I was amazed to catch one going outwards at about 0830 one morning, it had arrived as an 8-car inward working, only the 2-car unit went back to Uckfield, the rest went to sidings somewhere. As you can imagine, even counter-peak it was standing room only.

Meanwhile when the 456s were with Southern they were used singly at weekends, I recall one on a Saturday morning, all stations to London Bridge (pre-Overground), where by Forest Hill people couldn't get in. I believe Southern had some mileage-based leasing contract then which led to minimum vehicle mileage being done with their fleet.

 

[nw1]

They are main line when running London Bridge to East Croydon! I was amazed to catch one going outwards at about 0830 one morning, it had arrived as an 8-car inward working, only the 2-car unit went back to Uckfield, the rest went to sidings somewhere. As you can imagine, even counter-peak it was standing room only.

To be fair I would guess that, given the rural nature of the line and the fact that the busier bit also has the East Grinsteads, 2-car would possibly do for London departures between around 1000-1500, and say 1200-1600 London arrivals - but an 0830 departure would presumably have Croydon commuters from central London and would thus need more stock.