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Cross-country overcrowding: what could be done?

absolutelymilk

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As long as I can remember, XC services have always been overcrowded. Has that changed with the arrival of the ex-Avanti 221s or is it as bad as ever? In particular, are more services now made up of coupled units?
 
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jw

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Don't forget that the arrival of the additional 221s from Avanti followed the departure of the HSTs, plus there must be at least one Voyager under refurbishment, so not a massive uplift in additional coaches all considered. There's also the issue of short-staffing and the working arrangements that mean there must be crew with certain qualifications in both units, so sometimes a pair will be running with a set locked out of use if short-staffed.

A very long-standing problem with XC and no significant resolution on the horizon to my knowledge.
 

aron2smith

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When they put 4 and 5 coach trains (sometimes even less!) on what should be Intercity routes through our 2nd biggest city + a number of our other big city regions, are we really surprised? Crosscountry are the only operator I've used where even 1st class was packed, full and standing! Short trains, unsuitable rolling stock for long distance journeys, it's a sad site. I'm really hoping when all TOCs are finally nationalised, all the Intercity operators are merged and a set standard is enforced like was the case under British Rail. When Crosscountry turns up with an 8 or 9 coach service, they are more than adequate but far too often this doesn't happen unfortunately.

The overcrowding has been a consistent problem for many years now that if it isn't fixed by GBR, then god help us. I really think if Crosscountry was sorted out, then pressure would be relieved a fair bit on London's terminals. But electrification of the main routes needs to happen too. If DFT/ government is serious about trains, Crosscountry should be top priority for any improvements.
 

absolutelymilk

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Oh dear! I wonder if they will get the rest of the spare 221s at some point - maybe they are playing hardball to get a lower price from the ROSCO
 

ivorytoast28

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It would help if they actually had both sets in service rather than always locking out the rear and dragging around fresh air
 

Zerothebrake!

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08.27 & 09.27 departures going north from Plymouth cancelled this morning and the 10.27 is running as a five car..then the 11.27 is cancelled.
 
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Angmering1974

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XC is a lost cause. Fly, take a slower route, take a coach, hire a car etc. The locked out sets really should be the final straw

Got to stop giving them money for such a derisory and substandard service.
 

JordR

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Would the obvious quick (partial) fix be the 6 5-car 221s in storage? But even that seems to be beyond the budget willingness of the DfT?
 

AngusH

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I don't imagine that GBR will make any difference, unless they can somehow rob Peter to pay Paul in a way that the reduces stock somewhere else.
I don't see how GBR will have any more public cash for Crosscountry than currently and private investment will presumably disappear entirely.

Unless some optimistic rolling stock leasing company offers to take a share of future revenue growth in exchange for a discount on leasing costs somehow?
 

dk1

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I don't imagine that GBR will make any difference, unless they can somehow rob Peter to pay Paul in a way that the reduces stock somewhere else.
I don't see how GBR will have any more public cash for Crosscountry than currently and private investment will presumably disappear entirely.

Unless some optimistic rolling stock leasing company offers to take a share of future revenue growth in exchange for a discount on leasing costs somehow?
And the traincrew will be on exactly the same T&Cs. It is what it is unfortunately.
 

AngusH

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Employee relations is a good point.

Possibly GBR will manage the relationship better,
perhaps employing the additional staff that seem to be needed.

Here's hoping. :)
 

cats_five

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XC is a lost cause. Fly, take a slower route, take a coach, hire a car etc. The locked out sets really should be the final straw

Got to stop giving them money for such a derisory and substandard service.

I got to Penzance & back from Edinburgh mostly on XC, no problems, not crowded. Flying wasn't an option (Newquay airport was nowhere near where I was going), it's 600 miles each way by car so would have been at least 2 days plus an overnight, and I can't imagine going there by coach with a 20-hour journey time.
 

CaptainHaddock

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I got to Penzance & back from Edinburgh mostly on XC, no problems, not crowded. Flying wasn't an option (Newquay airport was nowhere near where I was going), it's 600 miles each way by car so would have been at least 2 days plus an overnight, and I can't imagine going there by coach with a 20-hour journey time.
I'm guessing that like most of us on here you're a rail enthusiast and perhaps not the typical XC customer? Nothing wrong with that of course but I doubt XC's core market is passengers travelling all the way from Edinburgh to Penzance and back!

Obviously XC can't magically make new stock and staff appear from nowhere but maybe they should focus more on their core routes and not run through trains from one end of the country to the other?

For example instead of running all the way from Edinburgh to Penzance, why not run an hourly service from Newcastle to Bristol as 2x4 car units? Passengers beyond these points could change onto GWR services in the South and LNER in the North, both of which have greater capacity than XC.
 

Angmering1974

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I got to Penzance & back from Edinburgh mostly on XC, no problems, not crowded. Flying wasn't an option (Newquay airport was nowhere near where I was going), it's 600 miles each way by car so would have been at least 2 days plus an overnight, and I can't imagine going there by coach with a 20-hour journey time.
Tell us more about the dates and times you travel, as to avoid crowds on that whole route, and avoiding any disruption (as I presume was meant by "no problems").

We're all curious I imagine!
 

williamn

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Given that everything is already specified by the DfT I’d say nothing is going to change with GBR.
 

Stephen42

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Employee relations is a good point.

Possibly GBR will manage the relationship better,
perhaps employing the additional staff that seem to be needed.
Cross Country have increased the numbers of staff they are employed. The "Traincrew and operations" category went up 8% in their last accounts.

Might be a case of newly employed staff not yet fully productive and things will improve a bit once they are.
 

route101

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I took a cross country service last weekend. The 0648 from Glasgow Central which was a 4 car set until Edinburgh where a 5 car was added. Are these booked?
 

edwin_m

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Travelling fairly often between Nottingham and Bristol is usually relatively comfortable if I change at Cheltenham between the Nottingham-Cardiff and a Manchester train that terminates at Bristol (not one that goes beyond) and avoid peak hours in Birmingham and Bristol. This doesn't work on Sundays when the Cardiff trains are largely non-existent.
 

cats_five

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I'm guessing that like most of us on here you're a rail enthusiast and perhaps not the typical XC customer? Nothing wrong with that of course but I doubt XC's core market is passengers travelling all the way from Edinburgh to Penzance and back!

Obviously XC can't magically make new stock and staff appear from nowhere but maybe they should focus more on their core routes and not run through trains from one end of the country to the other?

For example instead of running all the way from Edinburgh to Penzance, why not run an hourly service from Newcastle to Bristol as 2x4 car units? Passengers beyond these points could change onto GWR services in the South and LNER in the North, both of which have greater capacity than XC.

What a PITA that would be for those of us living north of Newcastle. It would make the trip to Penzance require at least one change for everyone who doesn't live in GWR land. There were plenty of people on the train from EDB, and the far side of Bristol, who would have had to change if they stop running as far as EDB & PNZ.

And aren't through trains their business? XC?
 

Tetragon213

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XC's overcrowding has not alleviated at all since getting the ex-Avanti units. I still regularly find myself writing formal complaints regarding their overcrowding, no matter which services I book out of Sheffield.

I'm strongly convinced they intentionally overcrowd their services and run as few units as possible to avoid paying maintenance and staffing costs, and stuff the travelling public, both figuratively and quite literally. They are a disgrace.
 

Pete_uk

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If GBR wants a bigish early 'win' it needs to start the ball rolling on 8 or 9 carriage trains for its core intercity services and 4 or 5 car outer suburban bi modes or bump the 170 services to others.

Top and tail class 99s with 'dumb' trailers would be good with a good fit out.

Intercity Cross Country could be a top flight service but it will probably continue to be the runt of the GBR litter.
 

Class 170101

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The extra five car units, currently in storage, are unlikely to make a difference until the staffing is sorted out, my reason being that you can run the extra units but they will be locked out as Post 3 above refers though it baffles me why both units need to be staffed and why it was ever agreed as such. Just look at 12 carriage operation elsewhere with only the driver as the sole staff member on the service.
 

JordR

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How much stock are their short of being able to run every longer service with at least eight cars (not counting the current Turbostar routes)? Could that be obtained if they concentrated on a slightly more core route as suggested above (e.g. Edinburgh to Plymouth, Newcastle to Bristol)?
 

sheff1

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The initial trigger for the current gross overcrowding on XC was the introduction of the woeful Branson Voyagers which saw replacement of full length trains with units which were not only shorter but had totally inadequate provision of luggage space for the type of services operated. Things have deteriorated further more recently with mutiple cancellations and services running with units locked out, in great part due to industrial relations problems seen following arrival of the Amazonans, as disussed in length on other threads.

The latter should be easier/quicker to fix than the former, if the will is there.
 

The exile

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The initial trigger for the current gross overcrowding on XC was the introduction of the woeful Branson Voyagers which saw replacement of full length trains with units which were not only shorter but had totally inadequate provision of luggage space for the type of services operated.
The previous trains may well have been longer, but most were not “full-length” (ie 10-12 coach). The tragedy (incompetence) is that nothing significant has been done about it in the intervening 25 years. Maybe we shouldn’t be surprised - after all, the trains don’t serve London, so “aren’t important”. (Not my opinion I hasten to add).
 

Bevan Price

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The initial trigger for the current gross overcrowding on XC was the introduction of the woeful Branson Voyagers which saw replacement of full length trains with units which were not only shorter but had totally inadequate provision of luggage space for the type of services operated. Things have deteriorated further more recently with mutiple cancellations and services running with units locked out, in great part due to industrial relations problems seen following arrival of the Amazonans, as disussed in length on other threads.

The latter should be easier/quicker to fix than the former, if the will is there.
Yes, but surely Treasury & DfT (or predecessors) were responsible for limiting the finance XC (and other TOCs) available to obtain /lease the size and number of trains they really required. Remember Trans Pennine also suffered, being allowed only 3 coach 185s - and a (roughly) 10% reduction in the number of trains they wanted.
 

vuzzeho

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Yes, but surely Treasury & DfT (or predecessors) were responsible for limiting the finance XC (and other TOCs) available to obtain /lease the size and number of trains they really required. Remember Trans Pennine also suffered, being allowed only 3 coach 185s - and a (roughly) 10% reduction in the number of trains they wanted.
From what I can find, there was a plan called Project OMEGA for Virgin to extend all Voyagers to 5 cars alongside other upgrades. No guesses for which government department said no.

Either way, XC needs more capacity and I wonder what GBR will do about it. It would be a huge win to eliminate overcrowding for the route (would put the Instagram account i_hate_cross_country out of business!) and would show they're serious.
 
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