London Underground and TfL Fast Trains

[Mgameing123]

In what way? Heathrow trains stop everywhere, Reading/Maidenhead trains skip a few stops. The PIS on the Elizabeth line is very good. I don’t think it’s that confusing.

Heathrow Terminal 4 trains stop everywhere

Heathrow Terminal 5 trains don’t stop at Acton Mainline, Hanwell and Southall

Maidenhead trains dont stop at Acton Mainline, West Ealing, Hanwell and Iver

Reading trains don’t stop at Acton Mainline (except morning peak) , West Ealing, Hanwell and Taplow

Reading peak time extras don’t stop at:

Acton Mainline, West Ealing, Hanwell, Southall, Hayes & Harlington, Iver, Burnham and Taplow

So no it’s a confusing service and that’s not including the Gidea Park - Liverpool Street extras which start at the mainline station and don’t stop at Whitechapel.

 

[z444z]

So no it’s a confusing service and that’s not including the Gidea Park - Liverpool Street extras which start at the mainline station and don’t stop at Whitechapel.

New Elizabeth Line trains: What would they be used for?

It's been widely reported that work is starting to build 10 new Elizabeth line trains. There's a thread here discussion the actual construction and stock. I'm starting this thread to ask/discuss: Does anyone know (or can anyone make educated guesses) what the new trains would be used for? What...

www.railforums.co.uk

This thread mentions that the new 345s are to be used to extend the Gidea Park services into the core and beyond Paddington, no idea on timeline for that though.

Point taken about the stops to the west, that is far more complex than I had realised.

 

[London Trains]

Heathrow Terminal 4 trains stop everywhere

Heathrow Terminal 5 trains don’t stop at Acton Mainline, Hanwell and Southall

Maidenhead trains dont stop at Acton Mainline, West Ealing, Hanwell and Iver

Reading trains don’t stop at Acton Mainline (except morning peak) , West Ealing, Hanwell and Taplow

Reading peak time extras don’t stop at:

Acton Mainline, West Ealing, Hanwell, Southall, Hayes & Harlington, Iver, Burnham and Taplow

So no it’s a confusing service and that’s not including the Gidea Park - Liverpool Street extras which start at the mainline station and don’t stop at Whitechapel.

They really need to sort this out - ideally there should only be two service patterns used west of Paddington, either all stops or "semi-fast" skipping Acton Main Line, West Ealing and Hanwell.

 

[NCT]

There should be scope to standardise Elizebeth Line GWML stopping patterns into 'All Stations', 'Semi-fast' and 'Fast'.

 

[cle]

It’s not really that complicated - aside from Acton people, anyone can jump on any train heading west and know they can switch to correct at Ealing.

No different to any other commuter rail line having different patterns. It’s not a tube out of the core.

It could have more official pattern nomenclature (eg in Japan, or the Met line of old, it doesn’t feel as zeitgeist usage today vs when I grew up) - but there will always be anomalies and announcements / PIS are enough.

 

[London Trains]

There should be scope to standardise Elizebeth Line GWML stopping patterns into 'All Stations', 'Semi-fast' and 'Fast'.

I agree, but I don't see much point in having more than two sets of stopping patterns.

 

[Mgameing123]

I agree, but I don't see much point in having more than two sets of stopping patterns.

I think more than 2 stopping patterns would make great sense.

You could have Elizabeth Line slow, Elizabeth Line fast, GWR “slow”, GWR “semi fast” and GWR fast.

 

[London Trains]

I think more than 2 stopping patterns would make great sense.

You could have Elizabeth Line slow, Elizabeth Line fast, GWR “slow”, GWR “semi fast” and GWR fast.

I was just referring to the Elizabeth Line stopping patterns, for which I think there should only be two, either all stations or "semi-fast" skipping Acton Main Line, West Ealing and Hanwell.

For GWR though, there should also only be two stopping patterns, either non-stop to Reading or "semi-fast" only stopping at Slough, Maidenhead and Twyford - ideally they need to sort out the issues which prevent the Didcot services from calling at Slough in the peaks.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

In what sense? Graphically?

No so, Crossrail is the mode as it should be, and the various stopping patterns are lines within the mode.

 

[Bald Rick]

In terms of cross-rail / Elizabeth Line, I'm curious as to how much harder it would have been to go for 4 tracks.

More than twice as hard.

I’d rather use the Northern City Line to connect with the lines out of Cannon Street to make it into a Thameslink/Crossrail service.

Not physically possible, unless you build a very long tunnel from north of Old St to South of London Bridge.

 

[Magdalia]

I’d rather use the Northern City Line to connect with the lines out of Cannon Street to make it into a Thameslink/Crossrail service.

Until 2018 I used to get from Finsbury Park to London Bridge by walking from Moorgate to Cannon Street.

Now I use Thameslink.

Notwithstanding the practical issues, there is no need to link Moorgate with Cannon Street since the Canal Tunnel opened.

 

[z444z]

Not physically possible, unless you build a very long tunnel from north of Old St to South of London Bridge.

Well this is Speculative Discussion, let’s do it!

 

[cle]

I was just referring to the Elizabeth Line stopping patterns, for which I think there should only be two, either all stations or "semi-fast" skipping Acton Main Line, West Ealing and Hanwell.

For GWR though, there should also only be two stopping patterns, either non-stop to Reading or "semi-fast" only stopping at Slough, Maidenhead and Twyford - ideally they need to sort out the issues which prevent the Didcot services from calling at Slough in the peaks.

GWR includes the fasts too - should Didcot calls be standardised into semi fast (vs fast) ?

I would also say that the likes of Iver and Taplow, arguably Burnham and Langley too - don’t need the whole service and the larger places need faster services now it’s been slowed down overall.

 

[London Trains]

GWR includes the fasts too - should Didcot calls be standardised into semi fast (vs fast) ?

I would also say that the likes of Iver and Taplow, arguably Burnham and Langley too - don’t need the whole service and the larger places need faster services now it’s been slowed down overall.

I was just referring to stopping patterns between Paddington and Reading, what happens west of Reading is a completely different issue.

Iver and Taplow in my opinion should have the base 4tph service stopping, anything beyond that doesn't need to stop though - Burnham and Langley on the other hand absolutely do warrant the entire service. As I mentioned before, ideally the GWR Didcot services would call at Slough all day, which would provide a slightly faster service alongside the standard Elizabeth Line services.

 

[Horizon22]

They really need to sort this out - ideally there should only be two service patterns used west of Paddington, either all stops or "semi-fast" skipping Acton Main Line, West Ealing and Hanwell.

Conflicting freight traffic is reportedly the reason that services can't run in an even pattern. As well as trying to "speed up" the Terminal 5 service to be seen as 'competitive' versus HeX but also meeting a previous commitment to give West Ealing 6tph leads to this fudge (at the expense of Southall!)

Also in degraded / engineering works with Main Line running, Acton Main Line, West Ealing and Hanwell can't be served. On the GEML, every station has main line platforms.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Dec 2025 ==

There should be scope to standardise Elizebeth Line GWML stopping patterns into 'All Stations', 'Semi-fast' and 'Fast'.

However there is a branch and half the trains don't go beyond Hayes and Harlington so this could get complicated and not be very intuitive. Not that I am suggesting it necessarily is now either.

Ideally the Heathrow trains would run all stops, and the Reading / Maidenhead services would be the semi-fast trains for inner GWML stations (with some peak "fasts"). But as mentioned above, there are problems with this.

 

[z444z]

Ideally the Heathrow trains would run all stops, and the Reading / Maidenhead services would be the semi-fast trains for inner GWML stations (with some peak "fasts").

Would there be any capacity on the fast lines for Reading/Maidenhead services to use them until Hayes & Harlington (or more accurately, wherever the next crossover is west of H&H) - would there even be any benefit to them using the fasts? Or would those peak fasts just run on the slows?

 

[Horizon22]

Would there be any capacity on the fast lines for Reading/Maidenhead services to use them until Hayes & Harlington (or more accurately, wherever the next crossover is west of H&H) - would there even be any benefit to them using the fasts? Or would those peak fasts just run on the slows?

No there wouldn't. Not to mention the max 90mph 345 speed differential to the 125mph speed limit on the Main Lines, the lack of main line platforms at Burnham and Taplow and the aforementioned lack of capacity of the line alongside GWR; there's no Up Main - Up Relief crossover until Southall East which then means you've got Heathrow Express in the mix and potentially a stop on the Up Main Platforms at Hayes and Southall - unless only the 'peak fast' trains do it, but you've still got the West Drayton issue.

The 'peak fast' trains already exist and run on the Relief lines - here's one running on 5th January: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G24122/2026-01-05/detailed

Edit: I would add that these ‘peak fast’ trains used to be run by GWR and terminate at Paddington and still were in the early days of TfL Rail on the route.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The Elizabeth line despite being a reliever for the Centrsl line has effectively filled a role of an express line for several tube lines and corridors

1: The DLR between Woolwich and Canary Wharf

2: The Met/H&C/Circle lines between Whitechapel and Paddington

3: The District Line between Whitechapel and Ealing Broadway

4: The Central and Jubilee lines between Stratford and Bond Street, and also between Stratford and Ealing Broadway for the Central line

5: Not a TfL line but Abbey Wood to Farringdon via the EL is a lot faster than the route via Thameslink

Other examples, The Met is an express for the Jubilee line, while the Chiltern service to Aylesbury is an express for Met

Piccadilly between Hammersmith and Acton is fast, while the District line is the stopper

The Victoria line for both the Piccadilly line between Finsbury Park and Green Park, and the West End branch of the Northern line.

Thameslink for the Northern line from Kentish Town to London Bridge and Elephant & Castle.

 

[Bald Rick]

Thameslink for the Northern line from Kentish Town to London Bridge

On a point or order, the Northern Line is quicker than Thameslink between Kentish Town and London
bridge.

 

[z444z]

On a point or order, the Northern Line is quicker than Thameslink between Kentish Town and London bridge.

Yep, I wrote this example down and was then very surprised when I checked the journey times. The core is sloooooow.

 

[NCT]

Once you factor in 'big trains' and air-con, I'm sure the ambience-adjusted generalised journey time via Thameslink could be lower than via Northern line, if Thameslink's timetable regularity and punctuality could be improved.

 

[mr_jrt]

These two videos on the topic might be of interest!

Dropping my usual wonderful article, with the actual maps:

London's Railways - Planning For Peace - A London Inheritance

Around this time of year, a number of London stations are in the news for the considerable amount of work that is on-going for rebuilding, the creation of new lines and what always seems to be the inevitable overrunning engineering works. The work at London Bridge and for Crossrail being just...

alondoninheritance.com

 

[Bald Rick]

Yep, I wrote this example down and was then very surprised when I checked the journey times. The core is sloooooow.

It’s also the dwell times, and acceleration / braking rates.

 

[z444z]

It’s also the dwell times, and acceleration / braking rates.

Of course, I’d imagine dwell times would be a large factor. I guess I meant slow as in takes a lot of time, not slow as in crawling the whole way!

 

[Mgameing123]

Yep, I wrote this example down and was then very surprised when I checked the journey times. The core is sloooooow.

It’s also really old!

 

[Horizon22]

It’s also really old!

Perhaps the tunnel(s) themselves but a lot of the associated infrastructure (platforms, signalling, trains) are not.

 

[JonathanH]

They really need to sort this out - ideally there should only be two service patterns used west of Paddington, either all stops or "semi-fast" skipping Acton Main Line, West Ealing and Hanwell.

Sometimes skip stopping is a way of segmenting the passenger loads.

Someone posted about GWR having peak time Slough stops, but the fact that they don't stop means Maidenhead and Twyford get faster peak journeys to and from London. The Slough demand is therefore catered on the Elizabeth Line, so it seems reasonable that the key Elizabeth Line trains for Slough (which replaced separate GWR services that used to cater for Slough separately from Maidenhead and Twyford) have fewer calls in West London.

 

[cle]

Alternative routes aren’t ‘fast trains’ - Kentish Town to London Bridge has two modes, completely unrelated.

Once you factor in 'big trains' and air-con, I'm sure the ambience-adjusted generalised journey time via Thameslink could be lower than via Northern line, if Thameslink's timetable regularity and punctuality could be improved.

I thought your last response re incidental activity was a bit of a reach (“I like to apply my own ideology to someone else’s topic!” Erm, start your own with your own stipulations?) - clearly others agree re fast trains (vs faster options) -

but - “ambient adjusted generalised journey time” is word salad, or really, a bit pretentious and not remotely logical.

Time is time. It’s longer. A nicer train or comfortable temperature doesn’t generalize journey time. It’s experience.

 

[NCT]

Alternative routes aren’t ‘fast trains’ - Kentish Town to London Bridge has two modes, completely unrelated.


I thought your last response re incidental activity was a bit of a reach (“I like to apply my own ideology to someone else’s topic!” Erm, start your own with your own stipulations?) - clearly others agree re fast trains (vs faster options) -

but - “ambient adjusted generalised journey time” is word salad, or really, a bit pretentious and not remotely logical.

Time is time. It’s longer. A nicer train or comfortable temperature doesn’t generalize journey time. It’s experience.

Passenger behaviour isn't a function of pure time, it's a function of generalised time. Different elements of time have different weightings (in-vehicle times, wait times, crowded vs uncrowded times), and this is why transport modelling uses generalised journey times. Journey times under different ambience conditions attract different weighting adjustments. This isn't word salad, it's transport modelling 101. And modelling isn't for modelling's sake - modelling parameters are extensively calibrated to reflect and predict real-life passenger behaviour.

I do agree this is getting away from the topic.

 

[Mgameing123]

Perhaps the tunnel(s) themselves but a lot of the associated infrastructure (platforms, signalling, trains) are not.

Still the tunnels were mainly built to follow existing roads and speed wasn’t a big priority.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Dec 2025 ==

Sometimes skip stopping is a way of segmenting the passenger loads.

Someone posted about GWR having peak time Slough stops, but the fact that they don't stop means Maidenhead and Twyford get faster peak journeys to and from London. The Slough demand is therefore catered on the Elizabeth Line, so it seems reasonable that the key Elizabeth Line trains for Slough (which replaced separate GWR services that used to cater for Slough separately from Maidenhead and Twyford) have fewer calls in West London.

The Elizabeth Line Reading peak extras do skip more stations than the normal Reading/Maidenhead trains but it’s not faster because you always stuck behind a red signal so the train is always moving very slow on the fast section.