Mgameing123
Member
Point is that it has direct connections to another country aka another city.
Heathrow on the other hand has absolutely appalling transport to other towns and cities in the area other than London and Hounslow.
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Linking UK airports by rail
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Heathrow on the other hand has absolutely appalling transport to other towns and cities in the area other than London and Hounslow.
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Severnia333
Member
Does it need connections to anywhere else though, given you can get to most places from London? Reading would make sense perhaps.
Edinburgh Airport is insanely busy these days. If an airport station could be served by the Edinburgh Glasgow Queen Street express service (i.e. a fast regular service to both cities) it would almost certainly be an absolute hit. To the point ScotRail would probably need to increase the frequency back to quarter hourly.
Do we have an idea on passenger numbers on CityLink Air? Of course it's going to be massively skewed by the -22s and seniors but that could be a good data point.
I still like the once-proposed HS4Air, which would have linked Ashford (International?) to HS2 via Gatwick Airport and Heathrow Airport - and with a potential link into the GWML too. It would have connected Paris to Birmingham, avoiding London at all.
en.wikipedia.org
HS4Air - Wikipedia
Mgameing123
Member
That would be an interesting link. It would defeat the one thing air travel does better than Eurostar on international services:I still like the once-proposed HS4Air, which would have linked Ashford (International?) to HS2 via Gatwick Airport and Heathrow Airport - and with a potential link into the GWML too. It would have connected Paris to Birmingham, avoiding London at all.
HS4Air - Wikipedia
That you don’t need to go all the way into the city centre to catch a train to continental Europe.
It would also provide better domestic services between Birmingham and the London Airports.
And also better connect the north with continental Europe.
No, it's because regardless, people generally hate doing that - it involves exiting a secure area and reclearing security, and involves additional risk with a third party transport provider.
Thank you for your response.
Totally agree - it would also very nicely avoid congestion in Central London if you did want to take a journey from Paris / Brussels / etc to Birmingham and the north.
I think it was proposed in 2018, and rejected by the DfT. I wonder if its time has come now that HS2 is being built. It would be wonderful - and the Heathrow and Gatwick stations would become hubs for regional train services across the south east, to link in with the high speed network without having to go into central London.
It is also the ONLY way to get a single train from Paris to Birmingham on high speed line, without connections. Would be amazing.
Mgameing123
Member
Though I do wonder the feasibility of this scheme. Because it does really look like some random fantasy scheme. But it should definitely be explored!
What has changed since 2018? HS2 started before then.
£10bn HS4Air project linking Heathrow and Gatwick airports 'rejected' by Department for Transport
A £10bn project linking Heathrow and Gatwick airports, dubbed the ‘M25 for high speed trains’, has reportedly been rejected by the government.The scheme, called HS4Air, would have linked the High Speed 1 (HS1) and High Speed 2 (HS2) rail lines with Heathrow and Gatwick airports.But the New Civil...
www.cityam.com
Since 2018, great and visible progress has been made on HS2, and the northern spur(s) have been effectively cancelled. It would certainly make the remaining leg of HS2 more useful if it were now connected with a route that bypassed London and made a direct connection into HS1.
I believe HS4Air is now a much more credible proposition as it would give more purpose to HS2 rather than just being a shuttle between Birmingham and Euston - it would connect both HS lines in the UK into one inter-European mega-network of high speed rail whilst at the same time linking two major airports with a proposed 15 minute journey time, which have for years struggled to find approval for expansion.
For years, people said HS2 should link with HS1 - and HS4Air is (in my opinion) the best way to do it. We can't connect them in central London, but even better - we can connect them via two major international airports. Sounds fantastic to me.
zwk500
Veteran Member
No, instead you'd need to travel to the Airport!
A major advantage of HSR is that it can serve *city centres*. HS4Air defeats that advantage completely.
Its also never going to get permission to build through that most NIMBYist of places - the North Downs commuterland.
I suppose the only advantage of HS4Air in that respect (city centres) would be if a single train could use it as an alternative route from the continent to Birmingham, thus Paris or Brussels to Birmingham via Ashford, Gatwick Airport, and Heathrow Airport. That would be a city centre to city centre route - finally the correct length for a true HS line - with very useful intermediate stops.
Mgameing123
Member
Not everyone needs to go to the city centre. These people use Heathrow and Gatwick currently.
frodshamfella
Established Member
Liverpool Airport, really needs some improvement to surface transport, either a train or tram.
Severnia333
Member
Might face some opposition from Glasgow Airport(s)...
Mgameing123
Member
Competition is healthy!
Most people live in, or want to go to, the city centre, not an airport in the middle of nowhere. I think most people would view the city centre - city centre aspect of Eurostar as a positive.
The mode share stats bear this out.
Mgameing123
Member
Middle of nowhere is definitely not where Heathrow is. Heathrow is in the vicinity of plenty of other major destinations with excellent onward transport.
You’re right the vast majority of people need to go to the city centre but that doesn’t mean there is not enough demand for a HS4air.
Mgameing123
Member
If you live in Reading. HS4 is going to help you, if you live in Slough, HS4Air is going to help you, if you live in Buckinghamshire or the Royal Borough then if parking is provided then HS4Air is going to help you. If you live in Birmingham then HS4Air is going to help you. If you live anywhere with a good bus connection to Heathrow Central Bus Station then HS4Air will help you.
If you live in Reading or Slough, WRLtH is your friend. And for Gatwick, Crossrail then Thameslink is good enough.
zwk500
Veteran Member
Ashford and Ebbsfleet are the examples to study.
They did so well they haven't reopened after covid.
See also France's Beetroot stations.
Mgameing123
Member
Do they serve major international airports?
It's a BCR game and an affordability game. Once you take away traffic adequately served by WRLtH, SRLtH, Old Oak Common and Crossrail-Thameslink, there just aren't that many journey left that would fill up HS4air.
Most (I would dare to say all) of the beetroot (90s-00s) France X-TGV stations have at least one daily direct service to Paris CDG.
On top of some having services to Lyon Saint-Exupéry airport.
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flitwickbeds
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Conveniently forgetting that it was Brexit, not their locations, which killed these two stations for travelling internationally.
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