Merseyrail penalty fare notice filled out incorrectly?

[dairyboard]

Hi,
I received a penalty fare notice yesterday. I was incorrectly given a ticket for Area C of the Merseyrail line, rather than All Areas- and did not check this until our tickets were requested. As frustrating as that is, I understand that it is a breach of Railway Byelaws 18.1, and therefore, the penalty fare notice was issued correctly.

However, the penalty fare notice seems to be filled out with multiple errors (as shown in the images); the 'Journey from' section seems to be incorrect as the journey itself was intended to be from Port Sunlight to Moreton with a swap at Hamilton Square, as well as the 'Issue Reason' was seemingly for having a standard class ticket in a 1st class area, which Merseyrail trains do not have. Additionally, they appear to have made an error in where the penalty fare notice allows me to alight to.

My question is whether or not these errors on the penalty fare notice would make it likely for an appeal to succeed.

Thanks!

 

[AlterEgo]

Where were you on the train when you were penalty fared? They should normally only be issued to the next stop.

The Penalty Fare gives the correct reason you were penalty fared notwithstanding the auto fill error on the "issue reason" so it is compliant in that respect.

How much did you pay for your ticket?

 

[dairyboard]

Where were you on the train when you were penalty fared? They should normally only be issued to the next stop.

The Penalty Fare gives the correct reason you were penalty fared notwithstanding the auto fill error on the "issue reason" so it is compliant in that respect.

How much did you pay for your ticket?

It wasn't long after I got on the train, so they might have started the process at around Bebington, and I was maybe given the receipt at around Rock Ferry (apologies for a lack of detailed accuracy here, I was a little shaken and didn't note the exact stations I was at).

I paid £4.80 for the ticket.

 

[srg]

Did you buy your ticket at Port Sunlight?

Both Port Sunlight and Moreton are in Area B. I presume you could buy an Area C ticket from a ticket office outside the area, but if a customer explicitly asks for this, I would be surprised they didn't make sure that is what you want (I think the TVMs wouldn't sell them)

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Did you buy your ticket at Port Sunlight?

Both Port Sunlight and Moreton are in Area B. I presume you could buy an Area C ticket from a ticket office outside the area, but if a customer explicitly asks for this, I would be surprised they didn't make sure that is what you want (I think the TVMs wouldn't sell them)

It would be useful if the OP would clarify this, but my assumption is that they were planning multiple journeys across the Merseytravel area, starting somewhere in area C (i.e. Liverpool/South Sefton) - in that multiple journeys are essentially what Saveaways 《edit 》and day savers 《/edit》 are for.

Also, in my experience, people live on the Wirral do not give their location as 'Liverpool ', as the OP has done, which further suggests purchase in area C.

 

[dairyboard]

It would be useful if the OP would clarify this, but my assumption is that they were planning multiple journeys across the Merseytravel area, starting somewhere in area C (i.e. Liverpool/South Sefton) - in that multiple journeys are essentially what Saveaways 《edit 》and day savers 《/edit》 are for.

Also, in my experience, people live on the Wirral do not give their location as 'Liverpool ', as the OP has done, which further suggests purchase in area C.

Apologies for not clarifying; yes, I started my journey at Kirkby, and that was where I purchased the ticket.

 

[P Binnersley]

It is odd that they want payment sent to Merseyrail Electrics Ltd which was dissolved in 2017. Which company name was the penalty fare issued under?

 

[cool110]

It is odd that they want payment sent to Merseyrail Electrics Ltd which was dissolved in 2017. Which company name was the penalty fare issued under?

That's some completely unrelated company. The proper one is Merseyrail Electrics (2002) Ltd.

 

[gray1404]

Can I check specifically what ticket you requested or where you said you were traveling to when you got to the station? The reason I asked this is a friend of mine who travels from Liverpool to visit me in Formby has twice last month being sold the incorrect day-saver. Area C instead of all areas. I wonder if at a station like Kirkby they can just get into the habit of going into autopilot and selling an area C.

 

[Djgr]

Can I check specifically what ticket you requested or where you said you were traveling to when you got to the station? The reason I asked this is a friend of mine who travels from Liverpool to visit me in Formby has twice last month being sold the incorrect day-saver. Area C instead of all areas. I wonder if at a station like Kirkby they can just get into the habit of going into autopilot and selling an area C.

Of course they are different prices and so it should be obvious if you are in danger of being sold the wrong one.

 

[Polarbear]

Of course they are different prices and so it should be obvious if you are in danger of being sold the wrong one.

True. However, I understand what @gray1404 is getting at. It's been my experience that ticket offices on Merseyrail will automatically default to printing off the daysaver that will get you between your start point & central Liverpool. I've had to ask, specifically, on several occasions for an "all area" version in the past.

 

[gray1404]

Exactly and if you do not know what price you expect to be charged in advance, you can trust that the booking office is giving you the correct ticket when you pay. My friend for example had never travelled to Formby before and had no idea what a Day Saver was, let alone the Area C he was incorrectly sold. It was only when I saw his ticket in his phone case I noticed.

When the same thing happened again he was able to get them to check as he was in expecting to pay £6.40 rather then £4.80. He had no idea of the price first time he visited.

It too is my experience that Merseyrail booking offices can default to seeing a Day Saver to cover said station to Liverpool. That's why I think it's worth checking with the OP exactly what they asked for and what was said.

 

[185143]

Of course they are different prices and so it should be obvious if you are in danger of being sold the wrong one.

If you know how much the fare is. How many people pre contactless being a thing would go to a London Underground ticket office/TVM/Employee and ask for "an all day ticket"? Probably a very significant amount of tourists every single day.

What would you say to someone issued a child ticket instead of a 16-18 one?

I'm not even thinking of a theoretical example with that, I've had it happen. Asked for a 16-18 Saveaway at Liverpool South Parkway a few years back (when I was entitled to one!), paid the fare and got on the train. It was only a few trains in I noticed they'd issued me a child one by mistake. Pretty sure I was 17 at the time. Went into the MtoGo at Liverpool Central, they asked if I had ID as per the T&Cs of the 16-18 tickets then said it'd be ok as they were the same price.

But a penalty fare would presumably have been perfectly legitimately issued. Though if I was indeed under 18, enforcing it would probably have been difficult.

 

[Djgr]

If you know how much the fare is. How many people pre contactless being a thing would go to a London Underground ticket office/TVM/Employee and ask for "an all day ticket"? Probably a very significant amount of tourists every single day.

What would you say to someone issued a child ticket instead of a 16-18 one?

I'm not even thinking of a theoretical example with that, I've had it happen. Asked for a 16-18 Saveaway at Liverpool South Parkway a few years back (when I was entitled to one!), paid the fare and got on the train. It was only a few trains in I noticed they'd issued me a child one by mistake. Pretty sure I was 17 at the time. Went into the MtoGo at Liverpool Central, they asked if I had ID as per the T&Cs of the 16-18 tickets then said it'd be ok as they were the same price.

But a penalty fare would presumably have been perfectly legitimately issued. Though if I was indeed under 18, enforcing it would probably have been difficult.

I would google the fare in advance, given that this takes all of ten seconds.

 

[RyanOPlasty]

I would google the fare in advance, given that this takes all of ten seconds.

You have easy internet access and are arguably over-cautious. It is not unreasonable to trust a ticket office to sell you what you ask for.

 

[wokspotter]

I would google the fare in advance, given that this takes all of ten seconds.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Haywain]

It is not unreasonable to trust a ticket office to sell you what you ask for.

Experience has taught many of us otherwise.

 

[Whisky Papa]

True. However, I understand what @gray1404 is getting at. It's been my experience that ticket offices on Merseyrail will automatically default to printing off the daysaver that will get you between your start point & central Liverpool. I've had to ask, specifically, on several occasions for an "all area" version in the past.

On a different tack, I have taken them by surprise at Southport by asking specifically for the local Area D one, which was usually followed up by "You're not going to Liverpool then?" or something similar. As ex-booking office staff, I think that is a fair question - over the years I've had numerous customers try and buy rangers that don't actually cover where it transpires they are wanting to go, and surely it's better to check and get it right at the first point possible?