Could railway shift work be improved or made more gradual?

[Roger1973]

I can't approach this with any railway knowledge, but have been involved with this for bus drivers, so some 'compare and contrast' may be of interest here.

On the buses, where there are night buses, it is (and has been) much more common for there to be a separate rota ('link' in railway language?) for night bus crews / drivers - usually on enhanced pay - either as a different pay grade or through the whole duty being on 'unsocial hours' rates.

Traditionally, the late to early shift change used to be arranged round a 'long weekend' of rest days to give more time to adjust, but there's often a preference for the earliest finishes before a long weekend and the latest starts after it, to make it easier to go away somewhere.

Some operators change shift type after a rest day, some change shift type at the start of the (schedules) week, whichever day that is, which can lead to some short daily rests between two duties on those days (within legal drivers hours limits of course - although drivers hours rules were written when it was a rarity for bus drivers to live some distance from their garage / depot and have an hour's drive in their car at each end of their day's work.)

As others have said, there's no one answer that suits everyone, different people are 'morning people' or 'evening people', some people naturally drift a bit later each day if left to their own devices, others naturally drift a bit eariler each day.

Some bus companies have separate rotas for late duties (sometimes again there's an enhanced pay rate for this), middle duties, extreme early duties - although traditionally anything that could be interpreted as 'special treatment' was frowned upon. And there's usually more volunteers for an early (or 'no lates') rota than for a late rota.

I've lost contact now, but a one time friend who was a train driver led me to understand that (at his depot at least) the official roster was more a basis for negotiation than anything else, and there was an informal process of meeting drivers' preferences so that (for example) those who didn't like early starts would do regular late shifts, and so on. Is that still a thing on the railways?

 

[Horizon22]

An A.I. powered bidding/swapping system might work well. Everyone logs in and prioritises their preferred range of start times for each week.
The system then checks against hidden rules, clashes with prior/future workings and automatically puts the swaps through where possible.

What happens when more people want the same shifts than are available? And nobody “bids” for certain shifts? They get shafted with them anyway but are then top of the pile for the next one? And how do you swap if you don’t know who you’re swapping with?

Also sounds like a terrible way to plan your life, like the whole depot is a GPR (General Purpose Relief). One benefit of shift work is knowing exactly what you’ll theoretically be doing for the majority of your shifts (and what days you’ll have off!) 6 months in advance (at least).

AI isn’t required for this - there is mature rostering software out there already and experienced roster clerks.

 

[Archvile]

What happens when more people want the same shifts than are available? And nobody “bids” for certain shifts? They get shafted with them anyway but are then top of the pile for the next one? And how do you swap if you don’t know who you’re swapping with?

Also sounds like a terrible way to plan your life, like the whole depot is a GPR (General Purpose Relief). One benefit of shift work is knowing exactly what you’ll theoretically be doing for the majority of your shifts (and what days you’ll have off!) 6 months in advance (at least).

AI isn’t required for this - there is mature rostering software out there already and experienced roster clerks.

The base roster is the base roster. You are guaranteed your work, no matter what.

The bidding system is optional. It's effectively a glorified matchmaking service.

You only get a swap if you want it, and you only lose your guaranteed start times if you agree to it.

Roster clerks are interested in satisfying the fatigue index and making sure trains run, which they do excellently.

The fatigue index makes dangerous assumptions and doesn't take into account people's individual differences - it assumes that if you give somebody 12 hours off, they will sleep for 8 hours, regardless of what part of the day that is.

This system wouldn't be perfect, but it would make a dent in the unseen yet very tangible issue of real fatigue, as opposed to 'on paper' fatigue.

It also releases resources from having to put through swaps that drivers have had to locate and organise themselves via word of mouth/Email/WhatsApp etc.

I don't know what other TOCs are like, but we have plenty of drivers operating on 2/3 hours sleep when they're working duties that clash with their individual circadian rhythm.

 

[Zontar]

Companies should invest in a dating style app that matches you with people who can work when you cant/don't want to. It's the easiest way for company and staff to get what they want from each other. All the data is there, just needs putting into an app

 

[RiverDon]

My brother in law is a pilot for British Airways on long haul and they use an online bidding system for their roster which lets them list preferences for the trips/days they want to work and they are allocated according to their seniority and rest requirements, so it can be done in a comparable industry. It even integrates with his iphone calendar.

 

[RGM654]

It has been known and documented for many years that short-term changes of shift and therefore of circadian rhythm are very disruptive to the individual and therefore very bad for the quality of the work they perform.

Those of us who have never had to work shifts will have met the problem only (if at all) in the form of jet lag.

No safety critical job should be subject to such disruption; but that lesson has evidently been ignored in the railway industry - and elsewhere such as the NHS.

 

[Horizon22]

The base roster is the base roster. You are guaranteed your work, no matter what.
The bidding system is optional. It's effectively a glorified matchmaking service.

Okay that wasn’t made clear originally. However this means people can continuously bid with no success and as I said there may be a disproportionate wanting to swap (take a diffent shift) than willing to swap (give a booked shift)

Roster clerks are interested in satisfying the fatigue index and making sure trains run, which they do excellently.
The fatigue index makes dangerous assumptions and doesn't take into account people's individual differences - it assumes that if you give somebody 12 hours off, they will sleep for 8 hours, regardless of what part of the day that is.
This system wouldn't be perfect, but it would make a dent in the unseen yet very tangible issue of real fatigue, as opposed to 'on paper' fatigue.
It also releases resources from having to put through swaps that drivers have had to locate and organise themselves via word of mouth/Email/WhatsApp etc.
I don't know what other TOCs are like, but we have plenty of drivers operating on 2/3 hours sleep when they're working duties that clash with their individual circadian rhythm.

Ultimately that comes down to personal responsibility - something drilled into rail workers regarding fatigue - and frankly any business cannot compensate for what happens in your personal lives, despite best endeavours. The roster is built carefully so that people do have sufficient rest, but again there’s only so far you can go as you can’t regulate what happens outside the work place. Also some people do swaps because it aligns with their family life and circumstances not because it is any better for their fatigue but because they feel they have to if they need childcare or have caring responsibility etc.

I’m not sure how having such a system is really dramatically different from now, nor does it really relive the issues of fatigue.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Dec 2025 ==

My brother in law is a pilot for British Airways on long haul and they use an online bidding system for their roster which lets them list preferences for the trips/days they want to work and they are allocated according to their seniority and rest requirements, so it can be done in a comparable industry. It even integrates with his iphone calendar.

Seniority does play somewhat of a role within the railway where a depot has “links” where the top ones often has the more ‘desirable’ work (routes) and also the more ‘sociable’ hours (e.g not the most extreme starts and finishes).

I personally don’t believe seniority should play a role as fatigue is fatigue although shift work can impact older employees more as time goes on.

People do have their preferences though and again mutual swaps are not uncommon, which sort of aligns with “bidding”, even if doesn’t quite exist in the same way.

 

[plugwash]

It has been known and documented for many years that short-term changes of shift and therefore of circadian rhythm are very disruptive to the individual and therefore very bad for the quality of the work they perform. Those of us who have never had to work shifts will have met the problem only (if at all) in the form of jet lag. No safety critical job should be subject to such disruption; but that lesson has evidently been ignored in the railway industry - and elsewhere such as the NHS.

I presume because the alternative is to have workers permanently work a particular shift, but people don't want to be stuck on the undesirable shifts.

 

[357]

I presume because the alternative is to have workers permanently work a particular shift, but people don't want to be stuck on the undesirable shifts.

There are places where you pass out into a cover link or whatever link has a vacancy, and with time you can transfer into your preferred early/mid/late link.

 

[Falcon1200]

It has been known and documented for many years that short-term changes of shift and therefore of circadian rhythm are very disruptive to the individual and therefore very bad for the quality of the work they perform.

No safety critical job should be subject to such disruption; but that lesson has evidently been ignored in the railway industry - and elsewhere such as the NHS.

So what is the alternative? In roles requiring 24/7 coverage, how can short-term changes of shift be avoided, except as below;

I presume because the alternative is to have workers permanently work a particular shift, but people don't want to be stuck on the undesirable shifts.

Indeed, and I worked shifts for almost all of my railway career, but no way, ever, would I have accepted being permanently allocated to one shift. Apart from the resulting delights, every single working day, of getting up at 0500, or finishing at 2200, or (worst of all) being night shift forever, what happens on days off? Even being semi-permanently on one shift, say for three, or just one, months at a time would have been IMHO awful.

 

[D3WY]

As someone who has recently joined the railway coming from 10 years in the breakdown recovery trade the shifts are extremely good

 

[Wyrleybart]

Interesting thread
I joined BR in July 1978 as a booking clerk on earlies and lates. after two years and old enough to leave home I went into TOPS and did the three shifts, then migrated to TCS and Control, working three shifts ever since. I enjoy my job which is why I am still there, but I admit to job sharing from September 2024.
The whole point of railway shift work is getting your rest and not trying to burn the candle at both ends. If you are in a safety critical job then you owe it to those around you to get your rest during the time you are not at work, and you are in charge of sorting that out.
If you genuinely have trouble getting your rest and sleeping, then you really need to examine your working relationship, and whether you perhaps need a role or even career change. Railway salaries are so much better than they used to be, speaking as someone who had my salary capped for seven years because my then boss believed I was being paid too much relative to some of my colleagues.

 

[D1015]

As a former guard, I found that my TOC had some of the most disruptive shift pattersn going. My former TOC ran us on the 3 weeks, weekly-alternating E/L system, so a 3 or a 6 week system depending on how you viewed it. The worst was the weekends into week days. You could be finishing at 1am-2am Saturday night ie Sunday morning then be due back in Monday morning at 430am. Yes you've had twelve hours rest. Yes you've had a day between shifts. But it was horrific and you could easily tell who had had recent bad shifts at both of my depots both drivers and guards. Efforts were made, enquiries sent but when your TOC despised anyone who wasn't a driver...

The constant swapping was and is the biggest issue. Week in week out ruins your body clock; whereas the few TOCs who have been clever - blocks of weeks continually on one sort, then a block of weeks on the other half, meaning less swaps about seem to fare better. One TOC allowed certain depots to use the midpoint of the second week as the swap point so:

[MON-SUN]
XXLLLLL
LLXXEEE
EEEEXXX
Meant less changing about Es and Ls, while maintaining the rest day on/off pattern and allowed for people on permanent swaps to work out ways to maintain them. Needless to say, compared to my old TOC, the morale in these latter places was much higher.

One TOC I know does three weeks of Es, long weekend, then three weeks of Ls which again, far less rotating meaning better health I reckon.

 

[Falcon1200]

One TOC I know does three weeks of Es, long weekend, then three weeks of Ls which again, far less rotating meaning better health I reckon.

But no night shifts presumably? Personally I never found changing between early and late shifts a problem, it was the nights that really took it out of me. And I would have found three weeks of earlies, ie getting up at 0500 every day, rather tiring. But as the discussion shows, there are multiple ways of rostering and multiple opinions on the best way!

 

[traintee]

What kind of shifts are people referring to as "nights"?

 

[Horizon22]

What kind of shifts are people referring to as "nights"?

Generally where the bulk of your duty continues “overnight” to the next morning so something like 1900-0700, 2230-0630, 2147-0639 etc.

You may or may not be fully ‘productive’ the whole time.

 

[dk1]

Hidden is very strict for traincrew. No more than 12hrs in one day, no more than 72hrs in one week & no more than 13 consecutive days. 12hrs rest must also be taken between safety critical turns. In addition to this each depot/operator has a set limit for driving hours without a physical needs break.

As an ex-roster clerk (& then driver) I was never overly concerned about fatigue. It was just seen as part & parcel of the job & life in general.

Rostering has to be fair to everyone and for drivers is very much controlled and agreed by the local ASLEF reps rather than the company itself. Yes a manager can agree to temporarily restrict a driver due to personal problems but any long term specific roster change or shift would have to be agreed by those reps who would meet with that particular drivers manager to negotiate something that would be fair to both the individual and the rest of the establishment.

 

[Horizon22]

Hidden is very strict for traincrew. No more than 12hrs in one day, no more than 72hrs in one week & no more than 13 consecutive days. 12hrs rest must also be taken between safety critical turns. In addition to this each depot/operator has a set limit for driving hours without a physical needs break.

I think everyone agrees Hidden is required - this came off the back of the Clapham rail disaster where I think one of the signalling engineers had worked 15 days straight or something ridiculous. And similar limits were also coming into place in other sectors like healthcare.

The only issue with the 12h is the absolute swing in can cause in your circadian rhythm. You could theoretically finish at 2200 and be back at 1000 on day 2 and then back at 0600 on day 3. If you’re on the same shift continuously for one stint doing 12H that’s a bit different and very common practice in control and signalling.

Also even having 24h between (as per the classic crew backwards rotation from Saturday late to Monday early) is good on paper but - as mentioned here - awful for fatigue.

Mostly though, hidden is the absolute max (with over 12h allowed in extremis like train crew stranded) and rostering principles provide another layer on top so people don’t even get close.

As an ex-roster clerk (& then driver) I was never overly concerned about fatigue. It was just seen as part & parcel of the job & life in general.

Rostering has to be fair to everyone and for drivers is very much controlled and agreed by the local ASLEF reps rather than the company itself. Yes a manager can agree to temporarily restrict a driver due to personal problems but any long term specific roster change or shift would have to be agreed by those reps who would meet with that particular drivers manager to negotiate something that would be fair to both the individual and the rest of the establishment.

I think that’s fair. By its nature any type of shift-work is likely to induce fatigue, but it’s about trying to limit it as best possible through systems and good rostering processes. But as I’ve said many times, that is layered by the individual’s personal responsibility to take their time off seriously.

This all being said, working 9-5, living an hour or so anyway and having to stay until 6:30-7pm regularly as “unpaid overtime” can also be fairly tiring!

At least shift hours are normally very well regulated and if you’re staying on it’s mutually agreed with someone else or paid as overtime.

 

[Gloster]

As said I worked twenty days out of twenty-one on a three-week roster: Nights, Lates, Earlys and two twelve-hour Sundays. The only time I found it tiring was the Monday afternoon on Lates when you had an eight-hour double-back, and I think that was more the short turnaround than anything else. But for the rest of the time I quite happily worked these shifts for a couple of years. During a blockade just two of us covered the twenty-four hours: six twelve-hour Day or Night shifts with an eight-hour double-back on the Sunday. That I did find tiring. I was luckier than some as I either lived on my own or, when the girlfriend was there, she left for work just as I got back off a night shift: no vacuum cleaners, children wanting attention, etc.

 

[Wyrleybart]

What kind of shifts are people referring to as "nights"?

My nights are either 2100-0600 or 2200-0700 except at weekends when we do "12 hour nights" which are 1900-0700 or 1900-0600

 

[traintee]

Thanks, makes me feel a bit better about my shifts! I wouldn't fancy those...

 

[InkyScrolls]

Railway shift work leaves one essentially permanently jetlagged, with all the health and concentration demerits thereof.

 

[Spincity]

Going to stir and waiting for some abuse.

Can’t be too bad. Plenty grab the overtime.

 

[Llanigraham]

I read some of the replies here and am glad I worked as a signaller doing 12 hour shifts (0600 - 1800 - 0600) on a 4 week cycle, so we ended up working just 14 days in every 28. We never went from nights to days without there being a 36 hour gap, and the longest night cycle was 4 days (including a Sunday) which was followed by a 7 day rest period.

 

[dk1]

Railway shift work leaves one essentially permanently jetlagged, with all the health and concentration demerits thereof.

But to be fair thats just how it is. Anyone not able to cope with that should remain or head back to what others refer to as the real world.

 

[Horizon22]

Railway shift work leaves one essentially permanently jetlagged, with all the health and concentration demerits thereof.

I am not sure it permanently does for everyone. Again it depends on a range of factors, including what type of shifts you are doing (the fixed E/L/N/12H kind in control / signalling world or crew shifts) what the roster pattern actually is (which has a massive bearing on how you feel), your chronotype, your living situation outside of work and what you get up to do on your days off.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Dec 2025 ==

I read some of the replies here and am glad I worked as a signaller doing 12 hour shifts (0600 - 1800 - 0600) on a 4 week cycle, so we ended up working just 14 days in every 28. We never went from nights to days without there being a 36 hour gap, and the longest night cycle was 4 days (including a Sunday) which was followed by a 7 day rest period.

I am aware that Network Rail are currently - or have been for a couple of years - looking at signaller rostering for fatigue management hence they've been hiring more people recently? At least this is what I've gleaned from the career as a signaller thread!

 

[Wyrleybart]

Railway shift work leaves one essentially permanently jetlagged, with all the health and concentration demerits thereof.

It is an individual thing. If I am 0600-1300 I get up at 0410, go to work, come home and have 2-3 hours on the bed, then i go to bed roughly similar time to Mrs.

It is all about getting your rest, and if you aren't you will feel jetlagged. You cannot burn the candle at both ends, especially as you get older.

 

[fwsmVor]

Could everyone be asked if they'd rather continue rotating, or do only one shift for the rest of their life (swappable with someone else by unanimous agreement)? Then, say 1000 declined, 2000 want all shift A, 3000 want shift B and 4000 want C, we end up with 2000 people permanently on all of shifts A, B and C, and the remainder (plus our 1000 recusants) continue rotating as normal. Numbers are for demonstrative purposes only, but wouldn't this reduce the proportion of people working 8 hours jetlagged?

(n.b. this assumes shifts A, B and C all require the same number of staff. Real-life considerations mean this isn't true, but I think the scheme would continue to work)

 

[Falcon1200]

Then, say 1000 declined, 2000 want all shift A, 3000 want shift B and 4000 want C, we end up with 2000 people permanently on all of shifts A, B and C, and the remainder (plus our 1000 recusants) continue rotating as normal.

In my office (Control) there were certainly those who much preferred one shift over the others, whether many, or indeed any, would opt to be on that shift permanently is another thing altogether - I definitely would not have, and I am not sure many others would.

 

[dk1]

We always had several drivers/guards that did ‘permanent’ swaps. Main thing that would catch them out was the occasional Sunday where either would not get their compulsory 12hrs rest from their Saturday or Monday turns of duty. Some were happy to jack that Sunday in whereas others would organise a suitable swap months in advance rather than lose the overtime. Apart from that it was only annual leave or long term sickness from either of the two that would throw up an issue with their mutual changeover that may mean the other had no choice but to work the other shift.