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LNER Stevenage Pickup/Setdown

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redreni

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The situation at Kings Cross tonight:

Nothing on the departure boards or announcements indicating that LNER were allowing passengers to travel to Stevenage
The pre-departure annoucement gave all the usual guff about Advance tickets, other train operators tickets not being valid etc.
Calling pattern was announced as 'Stevenage to pick up passengers only....', 'you cannot use this service to travel to Stevenage, your ticket is not valid'.
This was announced twice before departure, once after departure and upon arrival at Stevenage.

nationalrail.co.uk and Thameslinkrailway.co.uk said that LNER were conveying passengers between Kings Cross and Stevenage.
If only somebody had raised some of the pitfalls with them, and encouraged them to think carefully about how they would handle disruption, before the new timetable was introduced. ;)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

If Leeds to Wakefield had several alternative 8-12 coach trains per hour then I probably wouldn't mind if LNER was pick up only southbound / drop off only northbound.
You might if three in a row of the alternative trains were cancelled.
 
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Blaine

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No mention today on a London departure that the train was stopping at Stevenage, and no on-board warnings from the manager at all. The automated displays and announcements also said nothing. Couldn't see anyone getting off though!

Was a perfect railforums experience, I could have posted in the LNER departure board thread or the new timetable one.

A and B platforms are now flagged throughout at King's Cross, with A being at the front. I did hear some confusion from someone asking what DA meant as a platform on the board (i.e. 0A!) and despite going through the gateline at 10:29 I missed the 10:33 train - 0A is quite the hike even power walking, and even once you're on platform 0 getting to A (the equivalent of maybe 6 carriages back) is tough. I saw several trains being dispatched almost an entire minute early, the timetable pressure is clear.

No issues getting my ticket endorsed over to the next train, friendly service at the ticket office.
 

Sakuradori

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A and B platforms are now flagged throughout at King's Cross
Quite a lot of confusion is coming up from all of the signage saying "a" and "b", whereas the dated CIS says "A" and "B", so platform 0b displays as 0B, which on the dot matrix looks remarkably like 08.
 

Robski

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A seemingly random set of services do not have pick up/set down restrictions at Stevenage today.



 

Segedunum

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A seemingly random set of services do not have pick up/set down restrictions at Stevenage today.
Not intentional (sounds like an error) - but staff briefed to accept Stevenage-London tickets, or tickets with Stevenage to London on these trains as part of a longer itinerary, seeing as journey planners will have sold them.
 

Bald Rick

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and despite going through the gateline at 10:29 I missed the 10:33 train - 0A is quite the hike even power walking

Wow. I alighted a train at St Pancras low level yesterday at 0749, and comfortably made the 0754 to King’s Lynn off platform1 at KX.
 

Blaine

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The A makes all the difference - I think it must be almost doubling the length of the journey from the entrance you used at Kings Cross to Platform 1!
 

William3000

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Stevenage is my local station and I've been quite vocal about this issue on here. Apologies in advance for the long post, but this is a summary of the situation as I understand it.

Firstly, why is LNER doing this. No-one really knows 100% but there are three theories:

1. Making the new timetable 'work'
This, at least publically, is what LNER are saying. Saving 45 seconds at each Stevenage call means apparently make the timetable more robust. LNER told the local MP that there is only an average of 15 people alighting from each of their trains at Stevenage - if it is so low then why do they need the restriction?

2. LNER do not want to be involved in Project Oval
LNER has been involved in Project Oval discussions for years so it does seem strange if they do not want to be part of it. Even ore so when they are a nationalised operator with the money all going to the same pot! It's even more strange when you consider that LNER has sold cheaper 'LNER only' fares for years.

LNER will get a share of the ORCATS revenue so they will lose this when their trains go pick-up/set down only.

3. LNER do not want 'Stevenage commuters' packing out their long distance trains
This really isn't a thing. I regularly travel on the 17:33 or 18:33 LNER trains from Kings Cross and they are best described as 'fresh air expresses'. The unreserved coach C generally less than a third full upon leaving Kings Cross (I've been counting for the last few weeks...)

Furthermore, many more people are boarding/alighting at Stevenage to make journeys to/from the north. Everyone boarding northbound or alighting southbound means an empty seat between Stevenage and Kings Cross.

How will it all work?
It seems to me that this simply cannot be effectively enforced.

The ECML through Stevenage is paired by direction. There are two island platforms - platforms 1 and 2 share island at which all southbound trains call. Platforms 3 and 4 ahre the other island platform at which the northbound trains call. LNER has no staff at Stevenage station so it'll be up to GTR's staff to enforce it.

Stevenage has a 'turn up and go' service to London. There are 4 fast Thameslink trains and 2 stoppers an hour to London plus 2 LNER trains in most hours. People simply board the first train that arrives. That includes LNER, especially when Thameslink is delayed. The trains will still call because people from the north will need to alight. These trains are 9-cars long filling the whole length of the platform. Local door operation isn't an option. Even if staff start shouting at customers (is that really the sort of railway we want?) I suspect people will just get on, especially when there are delays. In theory, a ticket check can take place (the reality is they don't given the short time between Stevenage and Kings Cross). A ticket block could be done upon arrival at Kings Cross but that's not going to go down well with people who have travelled long distances just to catch a few errant Stevenage passengers.

Northbound is easier to enforce becasue Stevenage won't be shown as a calling point on the departure board. Of course, those 'in the know' will just get on and in my experience ticket checks between Kings Cross and Stevenage don't happen.

Lumo being pick-up/set down only at Stevenage was mentioned upthread. Their trains are shorter and generally at the extremes of the day so less of an issue. Also, they've never conveyed passengers between Kings Cross and Stevenage unlike LNER who have actively encouranged passengers only to now say they don't want them.

LNER senior management recently held a 'meet the manager' session at Stevenage station alongside the local MP. I went along and voiced my concern about how practical pick-up/set down restrictions were. They told me that it works at Watford Junction and Reading. Watford Junction has a different track layout compared to Stevenage (paired by use rather than direction) which makes enforcement easier. At Reading it's a handful of trains a day.

We should also consider what happens during disruption (today being an excellent example). LNER is needed to move people when Thameslink throw in the towel. I raised this point at the meet the manager session and it seemed to me that it was something they hadn't even considered!

The local MP has been quite vocal about this and I know he has met @David Horne in person about it. LNER instructing their staff to abide by the restrictions suggests they are concerned about adverse publicity.

I've yet to meet anyone who things this is a good idea....
Northbound - Stevenage WILL be shown
Why call at Stevenage at all? What major flows are being served that LNER has to stop to set down (southbound) or pick up (northbound)? Is it that there's no space to have all trains call at Peterborough? Genuine questions.
I use Stevenage regularly travelling north from just south of Cambridge - without it I would be screwed

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Why call at Stevenage at all? What major flows are being served that LNER has to stop to set down (southbound) or pick up (northbound)? Is it that there's no space to have all trains call at Peterborough? Genuine questions.
Stevenage is busier than Doncaster and almost as busy as Peterborough
 

Kite159

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Watford Junction works for Avanti services solely due to the layout of Euston station and Avanti's method of having pre boarding checks.
Southbound they get the staff to create a hostile environment for any tourist who might dare board that 7 coach train which says 'London Euston' on the side of the doors.
 

Bald Rick

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Watford Junction works for Avanti services solely due to the layout of Euston station and Avanti's method of having pre boarding checks.
Southbound they get the staff to create a hostile environment for any tourist who might dare board that 7 coach train which says 'London Euston' on the side of the doors.

The ‘hostile environment’ on P7 at Watford isn’t the staff as such, its that every few minutes a train comes through non-stop at 110moh and the platfroms are narrow. You‘d have to know the timetable well to be waiting for the Avanti train that does call there.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Watford Junction works for Avanti services solely due to the layout of Euston station and Avanti's method of having pre boarding checks.
Southbound they get the staff to create a hostile environment for any tourist who might dare board that 7 coach train which says 'London Euston' on the side of the doors.
The ‘hostile environment’ on P7 at Watford isn’t the staff as such, its that every few minutes a train comes through non-stop at 110moh and the platfroms are narrow. You‘d have to know the timetable well to be waiting for the Avanti train that does call there.
@Bald Rick no I’m sorry, I beg to differ. I was waiting on the southbound LNR platform and they diverted the set down ex-Birmingham to this platform. They made very very stern announcements and deployed five people to spread out across the platform and make sure no one got on the relatively short 807.
 

Bald Rick

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@Bald Rick no I’m sorry, I beg to differ. I was waiting on the southbound LNR platform and they diverted the set down ex-Birmingham to this platform. They made very very stern announcements and deployed five people to spread out across the platform and make sure no one got on the relatively short 807.

That will be P9, thats different ;)
 

Railguy1

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These sort of set down / pick up stops should be banned full stop. Either properly call at the station or do not. Just another stupidly contrived part of the industry which further reinforces a negative impression about it.
 

backontrack

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These sort of set down / pick up stops should be banned full stop. Either properly call at the station or do not. Just another stupidly contrived part of the industry which further reinforces a negative impression about it.
I think where there's an existing expectation, that's fine — the fact is that the timetable change means that, at face value, Stevenage has had a large slice of its services to and from London axed. (Similarly, Retford-to-Newark, a flow between two adjacent stops, has gone from every two hours to, what? One service each way a day? Should an operator really be able to do that?)

A lot has happened to brute-force the new ECML timetable into practice, maximising revenue at the cost of operational ease...
 

sheff1

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These sort of set down / pick up stops should be banned full stop. Either properly call at the station or do not. Just another stupidly contrived part of the industry which further reinforces a negative impression about it.
Nothing wrong with set down stops per se as it allows early departure if appropriate, but preventing/shouting at people on the platform seeking to board a train with Kings Cross, Euston or wherever clearly advertised on the side certainly gives a negative bloody-minded impression.
 

Bald Rick

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Similarly, Retford-to-Newark, a flow between two adjacent stops, has gone from every two hours to, what? One service each way a day? Should an operator really be able to do that?)

The change was consulted, evidently there were not many representations suggestimg that the chanegd calling pattern would be a problem.
 

YorksLad12

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I had another random thought, which almost certainly wouldn't work, but...

With there not being that many passengers, assume that all reservations to/from Stevenage are always put into one of the split class coaches. When the train calls at Stevenage, only open the doors to that coach - if that is possible, of course.
 

Kite159

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The change was consulted, evidently there were not many representations suggestimg that the chanegd calling pattern would be a problem.
Or anybody raising concerns got told to shut up with their concerns sent to the printer attached to the shredder
 
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Or anybody raising concerns got told to shut up with their concerns sent to the printer attached to the shredder
The big changes to LNER services in the December 2025 timetable show those making decisions (I assume largely the DfT) about what train services LNER provides have decided that LNER will be the London Newcastle Edinburgh Railway. There are clearly enhancements to train services connecting those three cities with each other, including a third train each hour London-York-Newcastle, but other places on that route and even more so West Yorkshire have not got a great deal.

I assume those making the decisions have decided that the priority is London-Newcastle-Edinburgh as that is where the money is and money is needed to pay for the trains. I can understand the decision to concentrate on London, York, Newcastle and Edinburgh on that route, even when it is at the expense of smaller station flows such as Newark-Retford, and serving Durham with the London-York-Newcastle service instead of either of the two London-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh services each hour. However, I note that while there are still two London-Leeds trains each hour this route clearly has been deprioritised in the allocation of rolling stock.

I assume London-Leeds will have a better deal at least on the number of seats if not services when the ten 10-coach Class 897 trains eventually come into service but that is some way into the future.

The Durham-Edinburgh direct hourly train will be provided by the hourly XC Plymouth-Edinburgh train which would be fine if this was a full length train with around 600 seats like the 9-car and 10-car Azumas but like all of the direct connections between major cities provided by this train service it will be poorly served unless and until XC is provided with new rolling stock that has a lot more seats than the current rolling stock.

Stevenage has four Thameslink and two Great Northern services an hour each way to/from Kings Cross and St Pancras with more Great Northern services at peak times on week days so unlike places such as Retford it is not really disadvantaged by removing LNER Stevenage-Kings Cross services when all services are running. The issue surely is what is done when Thameslink and Great Northern train services are severely disrupted.
 
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Hadders

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I had another random thought, which almost certainly wouldn't work, but...

With there not being that many passengers, assume that all reservations to/from Stevenage are always put into one of the split class coaches. When the train calls at Stevenage, only open the doors to that coach - if that is possible, of course.
That would slow down station calls at Stevenage far too much.

Many people board to go north and alight going south. Far too many than could be accommodated at one local door and still keep to the timetabled dwell.
 

Robski

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Another day, another "error" by LNER:
(no set down only restriction)

Do they run some sort of validation check on the timetable for things like this before publishing it..? Such inconsistent application of unnecessary restrictions is only going to confuse passengers further!
 

JordR

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The Durham-Edinburgh direct hourly train will be provided by the hourly XC Plymouth-Edinburgh train which would be fine if this was a full length train with around 600 seats like the 9-car and 10-car Azumas but like all of the direct connections between major cities provided by this train service it will be poorly served unless and until XC is provided with new rolling stock that has a lot more seats than the current rolling stock.
I think in context of other services this is fine, Durham isn't a major city. It wouldn't be one at all if it didn't have a cathedral.
 

jkkne

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I think in context of other services this is fine, Durham isn't a major city. It wouldn't be one at all if it didn't have a cathedral.

Durham may not be a “major city” in population terms, but rail demand isn’t determined by civic status or landmarks. Durham punches well above its weight because of the university, tourism, its position on the ECML, and the fact it serves a much wider catchment across County Durham. That’s exactly why long-distance services already stop there and why capacity matters.
 

Angmering1974

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The big changes to LNER services in the December 2025 timetable show those making decisions (I assume largely the DfT) about what train services LNER provides have decided that LNER will be the London Newcastle Edinburgh Railway.
Or it turns out that we discovered some nominative determism hiding in the acronym?! :E
 

35B

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I think in context of other services this is fine, Durham isn't a major city. It wouldn't be one at all if it didn't have a cathedral.
Historically, no. But small matters like the university mean this small city punches well above its weight.

Note - I need to declare an interest as parent of a current student there who is also connected with the cathedral.
 

mernrith

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I think in context of other services this is fine, Durham isn't a major city. It wouldn't be one at all if it didn't have a cathedral.
Durham-Edinburgh has had the 5th largest passenger flow on the ECML from Edinburgh - behind the 3 major ones and Berwick (6th if we take Leeds into account as well). I think as mentioned by members above, tourism, the university and the catchment across the county suggests the city should warrant decent long-haul service.
 
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cats_five

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Historically, no. But small matters like the university mean this small city punches well above its weight.

Note - I need to declare an interest as parent of a current student there who is also connected with the cathedral.

Leeds doesn't have a cathedral. Nor do quite a few other very large cities. According to Wikipedia it was 1889 when the requirement to have a diocesan cathedral went.
 

Kite159

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..
Leeds doesn't have a cathedral. Nor do quite a few other very large cities. According to Wikipedia it was 1889 when the requirement to have a diocesan cathedral went.
You mean Google & Wikipeida are wrong (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...=EgoyMDI1MTIwOS4wIKXMDSoKLDEwMDc5MjA2OUgBUAM=) & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeds_Cathedral

Unless you are the sort who ignores the Roman Catholic church and only consider those catherdrals built for Church of England
 
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