Delayed due to failure of Tesco daventry - coatbridge DRS service (17/12)

[matt]

Sorry what does Drs mean ?

Direct Rail Services. It is a freight operator.

 

[cj_1985]

Sorry what does Drs mean ?

Direct Rail Services. the Current operator of the service

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Sorry what does Drs mean ?

Lots of freight locations in railway systems (for some reason) are duplicated, one for each freight operating company there.
DRS is the operator of the service, short for Direct Rail Services.

 

[nilvaj395]

Sorry what does Drs mean ?

(edit - nevermind, already said )

 

[D1537]

Took a trip up to Glasgow from Penrith yesterday, coming back today, and noticed that 4S43 was an 88+68 combo both days.

 

[Freightmaster]

Took a trip up to Glasgow from Penrith yesterday, coming back today, and noticed that 4S43 was an 88+68 combo both days.

Perhaps Network Rail have had 'a word' with DRS about relying on 88s!


More likely they are getting used to running this loco combination as that will probably be used
when the train is diverted via Berwick during the first half of January.



MARK

 

[uww11x]

It's a single Bo-Bo class 88 slipping on a steep gradient in the rain hauling a heavy train and yes it's a fairly regular occurrence.

Hi, I am going to correct you. It doesn't happen often at all. 4S43 has had more successful trips than failures in a calendar year. OLE, Toc Traincrew, General infrastructure has disrupted the service on Beattock more than 4S43. Beattock and Beattock Summit have considerable lineside trees with no RHTT booked over the route.

 

[CW2]

If 4S43 slipping to a stand with a single 88 were to happen more frequently than once a year, then that's (at least) once too many occasions. Either DRS should be proactive and either change the traction or reduce the load, or NR must step in and insist that they do so.

 

[j37401]

If 4S43 slipping to a stand with a single 88 were to happen more frequently than once a year, then that's (at least) once too many occasions. Either DRS should be proactive and either change the traction or reduce the load, or NR must step in and insist that they do so.

In the real world that would never happen though as nearly every other freight in the country would need double heading or uprated traction if that was the case. This isn’t the only train on the network that will experience serious wheelslip.

 

[milooo]

Deleted

 

[cj_1985]

In the real world that would never happen though as nearly every other freight in the country would need double heading or uprated traction if that was the case. This isn’t the only train on the network that will experience serious wheelslip.

Maybe, but if the same operator, on the same service, with the same load and traction, is failing or blocking the network with the same issue in the same place... I'd agree that DRS need to look to do something, or NR need to ask for something to happen. It's not a late evening service affecting only it and maybe 1 passenger service... its in the peak, and affecting multiple passenger services regularly. Even IF it is only an issue at certain times of the year... it is not an isolated incident.

FL double head their intermodals on the north end of the WCML.

DB... well...

GBRf... they have had failures in recent months, but also have 99s on order that should (I imagine) see off the 66s on WCML services, ie. The Hams Hall to Mossend, and Dagenham to Mossend services, maybe even some of the cement trains. And will offer resilience of AC traction with a non 'last mile' Diesel engine to get them out of the way

 

[driver9000]

Hi, I am going to correct you. It doesn't happen often at all. 4S43 has had more successful trips than failures in a calendar year. OLE, Toc Traincrew, General infrastructure has disrupted the service on Beattock more than 4S43. Beattock and Beattock Summit have considerable lineside trees with no RHTT booked over the route.

While it may not be a daily or weekly occurrence it happens too often with the same train and it causes mayhem when it does happen. It's a long standing joke among train crews that when the northern end of the WCML grinds to a halt is someone looks at where 4S43 is and it has been known to slip to a stand attempting to climb Shap in the past too. Other heavy freight trains running on the same section don't seem to have half the trouble this one does so there is clearly an underlying problem with how this train is managed.

 

[sjpowermac]

While it may not be a daily or weekly occurrence it happens too often with the same train and it causes mayhem when it does happen. It's a long standing joke among train crews that when the northern end of the WCML grinds to a halt is someone looks at where 4S43 is and it has been known to slip to a stand attempting to climb Shap in the past too. Other heavy freight trains running on the same section don't seem to have half the trouble this one does so there is clearly an underlying problem with how this train is managed.

Do you have any data to back this up?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Dec 2025 ==

Hi, I am going to correct you. It doesn't happen often at all. 4S43 has had more successful trips than failures in a calendar year. OLE, Toc Traincrew, General infrastructure has disrupted the service on Beattock more than 4S43. Beattock and Beattock Summit have considerable lineside trees with no RHTT booked over the route.

All very good points.

 

[Falcon1200]

While it may not be a daily or weekly occurrence it happens too often with the same train and it causes mayhem when it does happen.

Do you have any data to back this up?

28th June 2021
On 1110 Euston-Glasgow C which arrived at Central 245 minutes late due to the failure of 4S43 (which did not occur on Beattock Bank as we passed the failed train at Penrith).

13th September 2022
On 0643 Euston-Edinburgh which arrived at Carlisle 100 minutes late due to the failure of 4S43, clearly also not on Beattock Bank.

While I have been delayed on the WCML multiple times due to infrastructure failures, severe weather and other incidents, no single train has ever cost me as much time as 4S43.

 

[littledude]

28th June 2021
On 1110 Euston-Glasgow C which arrived at Central 245 minutes late due to the failure of 4S43 (which did not occur on Beattock Bank as we passed the failed train at Penrith).

13th September 2022
On 0643 Euston-Edinburgh which arrived at Carlisle 100 minutes late due to the failure of 4S43, clearly also not on Beattock Bank.

While I have been delayed on the WCML multiple times due to infrastructure failures, severe weather and other incidents, no single train has ever cost me as much time as 4S43.

Four more dates I can find from this year where 4S43 has seriously affected the WCML are:

February 20th 2025, April 14th 2025, September 1st 2025 and December 17th 2025

 

[driver9000]

Do you have any data to back this up?

If you want spreadsheets then no. I have over a decade of working on the northern section of the WCML which includes my colleagues or me being caught up in more instances of 4S43 coming to a stand when hauled by a single 88 in wet weather than any other freight train on the route. This thread also proves there is a known issue with this train and there is rarely a problem with the Freightliner double headed 90s or 66 hauled trains in the same conditions.

 

[bahnause]

Four more dates I can find from this year where 4S43 has seriously affected the WCML are:

February 20th 2025, April 14th 2025, September 1st 2025 and December 17th 2025

Did these cases occur due to a lack of traction or other problems? Were they all faults with the locomotive?

 

[sjpowermac]

Four more dates I can find from this year where 4S43 has seriously affected the WCML are:

February 20th 2025, April 14th 2025, September 1st 2025 and December 17th 2025

Thank you for the info, most appreciated, though I’m not seeing the WCML being ‘seriously affected’ on September 1st 2025, the longest northbound delay I can see is 25 minutes and I’m not convinced that 4S43 sat in a loop north of Preston caused that.

If you want spreadsheets then no. I have over a decade of working on the northern section of the WCML which includes my colleagues or me being caught up in more instances of 4S43 coming to a stand when hauled by a single 88 in wet weather than any other freight train on the route. This thread also proves there is a known issue with this train and there is rarely a problem with the Freightliner double headed 90s or 66 hauled trains in the same conditions.

No, of course I’m not asking for spreadsheets, but I was curious to quantify the extent of the problem. The impression given in the thread is that the WCML is ‘regularly’ being brought to a stand by Class 88s slipping to a stand on Beattock.

Looking at the information that is publicly available for this year, I can see that 4S43 appears to have had a problem at Beattock Summit on 14.04.2025 and 17.12.2025.

What I also observe is that in the past 100 days, 4S43 has been delayed on 85 occasions by late running of either Avanti West Coast’s 9S47 (1S45 Saturdays) or TransPennine’s 1S46.

@bahnause
@hwl
I wonder if either of you have a moment you might be able to answer a technical question about line voltages?

Would a passenger train located nearer to a substation than a freight train affect the voltage available to the freight train? Would regenerative braking potentially put additional stress on the power supply?

4S43 recesses at Carlisle NY between 11:00 and 12:02, then to pass Floriston on the Down Main at 12:16.

The trains preceding 4S43 over Beattock are 9S47 (Avanti) and 1S45 (TPE), both of which are regularly late. Normal practice is to hold 4S43 to allow 9S47/1S45 to pass. I can only see one instance in the past 100 days that this did not happen.

On both 14.04.2025 and 17.12.2025 9S47 preceded 4S43, but unusually 4S43 was given the Down Main route ahead of 1S45.

On 14.04.2025 4S43 was only 9 minutes ahead of 1S45, on 17.12.2025 4S43 was 3 minutes ahead of 1S45.

I think I’m correct in saying that there is a substation just north of Lockerbie and on both occasions quoted that 4S43 had a problem at Beattock 1S46 was between 4S43 and the substation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Dec 2025 ==

Did these cases occur due to a lack of traction or other problems? Were they all faults with the locomotive?

September 1st I believe was a problem with one of the wagons.

 

[QueensCurve]

It's a single Bo-Bo class 88 slipping on a steep gradient in the rain hauling a heavy train and yes it's a fairly regular occurrence.

If only the up line on Beattock bank could be bidirectional.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Dec 2025 ==

The route between Brugg and Frick is a great “test track” for us, as it carries a lot of heavy freight traffic and double heading would be incredibly inefficient and expensive due to the relatively short length of the route. As a result, many trains there run with a single four-axle locomotive close to the maximum load (which is set by the TOC, by the way). Are there any traction problems under certain circumstances? Yes, but very rarely. However, these are accepted because adding a second locomotive or reducing the load would result in disproportionately large productivity losses.

Is the Class Ae4/4ii still used?

 

[38Cto15E]

The failure of 4S43 on Wednesday 17th ensured it took me 6 hours to get from Edinburgh Waverley to Carlisle.
It seems very strange if there is no RHTT scheduled to operate on the WCML North of Carlisle.

 

[Falcon1200]

It seems very strange if there is no RHTT scheduled to operate on the WCML North of Carlisle.

But on the other hand most trains manage to climb Beattock Bank perfectly well! If there is a problem with one particular train that is surely an issue of traction provision rather than anything else?

 

[bahnause]

Is the Class Ae4/4ii still used?

Do you mean the Class Re 4/4? Ae 4/4 trains haven't been running for 25 years.

But on the other hand most trains manage to climb Beattock Bank perfectly well! If there is a problem with one particular train that is surely an issue of traction provision rather than anything else?

“If” is the key word. Without reliable data, this will be difficult to analyze.

 

[warwickshire]

4543, from end March 2026, shouldnt be as issuse as Drs will have extra availality, from the extra Drs. Class 68008 to 68015 range to choose from, as the locomotives come available to use when the Chiltern Railways, lease contract ends on them.

 

[furnessvale]

If only the up line on Beattock bank could be bidirectional.

I acknowledge the irony in your post but the fact is there is a considerable imbalance in freight to and from Scotland. This means that many HGVs return from Scotland empty.

I am sure this will have an effect on train loadings making up trains lighter and more able to cope with Beattock and Shap.

 

[43096]

4543, from end March 2026, shouldnt be as issuse as Drs will have extra availality, from the extra Drs. Class 68008 to 68015 range to choose from, as the locomotives come available to use when the Chiltern Railways, lease contract ends on them.

DRS hardly have a shortage of traction now. It should be noted, though, that the locos being released from Chiltern are balanced by 66031 going back to DB Cargo and 68016-018 going off lease back to Beacon.

 

[Merle Haggard]

There' something about this that puzzles me.

In effect, the freight operator has to work out by empirical trial what traction will cope with the railhead situation provided.

What puzzles me is why Network Rail, as infrastructure supplier, seem to have no obligations to specify the state of the infrastructure that they are providing. For instance, a guarantee of the minimum co-efficient of friction of their railhead.

My experience at a FOC long ago was that Railtrack saw no problem in not offering any form of compensation when not providing what was in the access contract so I guess their disconnect between demands and obligations is long-standing..

 

[Sealink]

Sorry what does Drs mean ?

I thought it referred to the operator, Direct Rail Services

 

[sjpowermac]

There' something about this that puzzles me.

In effect, the freight operator has to work out by empirical trial what traction will cope with the railhead situation provided.

What puzzles me is why Network Rail, as infrastructure supplier, seem to have no obligations to specify the state of the infrastructure that they are providing. For instance, a guarantee of the minimum co-efficient of friction of their railhead.

My experience at a FOC long ago was that Railtrack saw no problem in not offering any form of compensation when not providing what was in the access contract so I guess their disconnect between demands and obligations is long-standing..

That’s a very pertinent point. Double heading trains most certainly isn’t cost free.

 

[bahnause]

What puzzles me is why Network Rail, as infrastructure supplier, seem to have no obligations to specify the state of the infrastructure that they are providing. For instance, a guarantee of the minimum co-efficient of friction of their railhead.

They should certainly be held accountable for their contracts. However, I don't think it is useful to stipulate elements such as adhesion coefficients in a contract, as these depend on numerous external factors (e.g. the number, type and frequency of trips on the relevant section). For instance, it is impossible to clear snow in advance.

At a certain point, these compensations within the railway system become self-serving measures that no longer benefit the system as a whole.

 

[Merle Haggard]

They should certainly be held accountable for their contracts. However, I don't think it is useful to stipulate elements such as adhesion coefficients in a contract, as these depend on numerous external factors (e.g. the number, type and frequency of trips on the relevant section). For instance, it is impossible to clear snow in advance.

At a certain point, these compensations within the railway system become self-serving measures that no longer benefit the system as a whole.

I accept that Network Rail might find it difficult to stipulate these details but, by not doing so, they transfer the financial risk (having to provide an expensive second loco just-in-case) to their customer.