"Taking the next available train" when missed connection leads to an overnight stop

[BRX]

Today I was travelling on a series of three trains (using two advance tickets) which together formed a valid itinerary. My second train was delayed and I missed my third train, which was also the last train of the day to my destination.

I was told that I should get as close as possible by train and then a taxi would be offered for the final (two hour) leg. I didn't fancy that and instead chose to stop overnight. Whether I'll be successful in claiming back the cost of overnight accommodation is one issue - but my question here is what I should do in the morning.

Would I be within my rights just to board a train heading for my destination (same operator, Scotrail, as my original advance ticket) and explain that I am simply completing my journey having been unable to do so tonight? Or must I buy a new ticket and then try and reclaim the cost of this?

I'm ok to buy a new ticket and reclaim, just would rather not have to go through the palaver if necessary. I am thinking of just boarding the train and going straight to the conductor - if they tell me I must buy a new tcket so be it - but obviously don't want to get done for travelling without a valid ticket.

 

[reb0118]

I am thinking of just boarding the train and going straight to the conductor - if they tell me I must buy a new tcket so be it - but obviously don't want to get done for travelling without a valid ticket.

The "penalty" for not having a valid ticket, where no dishonesty is suspected, on ScotRail is generally limited to purchasing a new ticket.

However, if you explain yourself clearly, even that would be highly unlikely - if the conductor is on the ball he may even advise you to claim delay replay.

 

[BRX]

I will certainly be claiming delay repay in any case!

 

[Belperpete]

Today I was travelling on a series of three trains (using two advance tickets) which together formed a valid itinerary. My second train was delayed and I missed my third train, which was also the last train of the day to my destination.

I was told that I should get as close as possible by train and then a taxi would be offered for the final (two hour) leg. I didn't fancy that and instead chose to stop overnight.

That does seem to be industry standard practice to arrange alternative transport where possible, and only provide accommodation as a last resort.

You are certainly entitled to delay repay for however late your second train arrived, but after that it gets problematic. If you had followed advice, you would have been entitled to delay repay based on what time you eventually arrived at your final destination, and for a free taxi journey. However, instead you effectively decided to delay yourself in getting to your final destination, by breaking your journey, which could affect both your eligibility for delay repay and reimbursement of your hotel expenses. I suspect that you are going to be relying on goodwill payments.

Your entitlement to travel the next day could also be debatable. As I understand it, you are entitled to catch either the next train or the one after. You apparently declined to catch the next train as far as you could go, so you would still be entitled to catch the one after that. If that was the first train the next day, you would be entitled to catch that one.

 

[BRX]

I did get the train as far along as possible last night. This morning I got the second train of the day.

In practice what happened is that the gateline staff at both ends of this morning's journey, along with the train conductor, were all completely fine with me using yesterday's ticket once I explained how I was delayed. So full marks to Scotrail on that front.

 

[SephenWorceste]

You did better than me. I had a train manager try to tell me off for being on the first GWR train of the day to Worcester. My ticket was an advance for the day before. I asked if he was aware that yesterday was a national (almost) rail strike day. I was not in a god mood as I had had to pay for a hotel in London. I did eventually get delay repay if I remember. I just accepted the hotel cost. It seemed debatable who should pay and the excess on my travel insurance was too high. It was better than the alternative of a bench overnight at Paddington.

 

[BRX]

I'm not sure it's really a "reasonable" interpretation of the rules to say that you must use the very first train of the day anyway. If you've travelled as far as you can the previous day, it's quite likely you will have got to your overnight accommodation going on for midnight. If the first train of the day leaves at 5am then is there any good reason to demand that the passenger foregoes a proper night's sleep in order to catch it? It ought in any case to be in the railway's best interest for someone to travel after the morning peak if they want to.

 

[gray1404]

There is no requirement to go as far as possible. As far as possible could mean being in a place with less or no accommodation options. Likewise there is no requirement to take the first train of the day either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure it's really a "reasonable" interpretation of the rules to say that you must use the very first train of the day anyway. If you've travelled as far as you can the previous day, it's quite likely you will have got to your overnight accommodation going on for midnight. If the first train of the day leaves at 5am then is there any good reason to demand that the passenger foregoes a proper night's sleep in order to catch it? It ought in any case to be in the railway's best interest for someone to travel after the morning peak if they want to.

There is no requirement to go as far as possible. As far as possible could mean being in a place with less or no accommodation options. Likewise there is no requirement to take the first train of the day either.

Isn't this more about the "if the journey cannot be completed" thing on (Super) Off Peak Singles and the outward part of returns, rather than the case of Advances (as the poster held) where the entitlement is the two trains before and the two trains after?

 

[Belperpete]

There is no requirement to go as far as possible. As far as possible could mean being in a place with less or no accommodation options. Likewise there is no requirement to take the first train of the day either.

But the railway wasn't offering the OP accommodation, the railway was proposing to get him home that day by taxi. It was the OP who decided that he would prefer accomodation.

 

[BRX]

There is no requirement to go as far as possible. As far as possible could mean being in a place with less or no accommodation options. Likewise there is no requirement to take the first train of the day either.

Is this written anywhere or just established in practice? It would be quite useful to know exactly what the obligations/rights are, when the passenger would prefer to decline a taxi.

I know some will say that declining a taxi is being awkward or picky... in my case, I get motion sickness so 2+ hours in a car is not that attractive and I'd usually prefer to carry on the next day by rail.

Additionally, would it be reasonable to decline a taxi when it would mean a very late arrival? Does the rail company have to take arrival time into account when deciding what to offer?

 

[Ziggiesden]

There is no requirement to go as far as possible. As far as possible could mean being in a place with less or no accommodation options. Likewise there is no requirement to take the first train of the day either.

Correct, as an example of the rules see T&C 4.4 & 4.5, below:

Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak Tickets Terms and Conditions | National Rail

The terms and conditions for using Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak tickets on National Rail services. These are cheaper fares for travelling on trains that are less busy.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Also, National Rail Conditions of Carriage is worth knowing e.g. "28.4 Where your train is likely to be delayed for more than 60 minutes, you may use your Ticket to make your journey at a later date subject to comparable restrictions on your Ticket. Please refer to your Train Company’s website or contact them directly for details on how to obtain a replacement Ticket."

I actually issued and stamped a reservation for a lad who wanted to just travel the next morning on the first service to Manchester from Haymarket, as it was not practical for him to try it that night, although he had an Advance, he decided to just book a hotel for the night:

Buy Advance train tickets | TransPennine Express

Plan your journey before travelling & make the most of our cheaper advance train tickets. Save over 50% & enjoy no booking or credit card fees!

www.tpexpress.co.uk

Since they too are Nationalised I decided to jump the gun with the spirit of “look after the Passenger” despite the nonsense of the various instructions we are currently given.

We have had an interesting week or so with the powers that be coming out with some weird ticket acceptance to Inverness (for Passengers with disabilities or needing assistance but NOONE ELSE with LNER Only tickets) or chopping and changing it throughout the day causing total confusion. One lad returned from his journey with Avanti who had bought a new ticket for them, originally booked with TransPennine Express. He had found out that there was (eventually) ticket acceptance and when he came back I simply non-issued his tickets and gave him his money back – the lass that issued them had done so just before the email came through – happens a lot. It has happened to me on more than one occasion. I wish they would get their finger out on this, particularly with delays, not just cancellations.

It was a shambles, as usual, for both East and West Coast journeys.

 

[BRX]

Correct, as an example of the rules see T&C 4.4 & 4.5, below:

Although these are specific to off peak tickets in normal use rather than advance tickets in the case of delayed connections.

 

[Ziggiesden]

Although these are specific to off peak tickets in normal use rather than advance tickets in the case of delayed connections.

Use can be problematic if any ticket is TOC specific and your plans fail to materialise, as they invariably do. e.g you have jollied from Carlisle and are on your way to Aviemore on the 16:39 LNER from HYM with an SOS LNER Only priced at £36.00. You miss your intended service (it is school holidays and the little darlings are playing on the tracks again) and ticket acceptance is refused from ScotRail. You’ve the hassle of getting on the next service without a seat reservation with your newly purchased ticket and now have to work out whether your best bet is Refund or Delay Repay. In this case it is Delay Repay as you will submit all the tickets relative to the “journey”.

You had better know which one to apply for or you could be out of pocket. Many don’t as it is not very well publicised.

You should also make a claim for any incidental expenses such as having to get a taxi home as you have missed the last bus that day although most TOC’s will arrange one for you if you qualify under their particular scheme. Although, of late, it has been arrange everything yourself and claim back later. This can be advantageous as you get to pick the (much nicer) hotel and taxi company which is great if you are getting cashback on them.

It is worth reading some of the Ombudsman cases to see how regulations are being interpreted, so you have an idea what to expect under the Consumer Protection Regulations etc.

It can be quite grey, shall we say, depending on the circumstances.

 

[BRX]

Use can be problematic if any ticket is TOC specific and your plans fail to materialise, as they invariably do.

Yes sure. However the particular scenario this thread is discussing is one where it's an advance ticket that is attached to the missed connection. I'm interested in what the rules say about this scenario, and the specific ones you quoted don't appear to apply, for the reasons I mentioned.

 

[Ziggiesden]

Yes sure. However the particular scenario this thread is discussing is one where it's an advance ticket that is attached to the missed connection. I'm interested in what the rules say about this scenario, and the specific ones you quoted don't appear to apply, for the reasons I mentioned.

Same thing - you can use the next available service where the ticket is actually valid. Delays under the likely 60 minute rule give you discretion to go the next day, if that rule applies to this scenario. It all depends on the particulars of the case and what discretion the railway applies which varies wildly depending on who deals with that particular case. Like I say it can be quite grey.

People do like certainty, but they simply aren't getting it just now, and I do not have much hope for the future.

 

[Kilopylae]

Additionally, would it be reasonable to decline a taxi when it would mean a very late arrival? Does the rail company have to take arrival time into account when deciding what to offer?

TfW once booked us taxis from Newport to Exeter St Davids which left at about 2 am (I think - memory fuzzy) and got back at about 3 am. The original scheduled arrival time in Exeter had been something like 6 pm. No hotel was offered; I would have vastly preferred one.