father_jack
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So if your desire to have one TM on a double voyager came about by modifying the voyagers what would you move on to next ? No TM and just the driver ? And what then- no driver ?
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Another Cross Country nightmare
- Thread starter BREMENMURRAY
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If the money and will was there, the role of TM could be removed from the majority of the network, as I've said multiple times, there are many examples of non gangway stock that operate without any form of TM on a daily basis and have done for 30+ years.
I don't support de-staffing, but with the technology available any second member of staff should be doing only revenue protection and customer service with the service still able to run if not available, as per the original Southern OBS proposal.
Large parts of the railway staffing model need overhaul, but it's too political toxic.
As for no driver, let's not be silly.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
No it isn't, don't be silly.
The charming Ms Rolfe joined in Q1 2025.
She was at Royal Mail as 'service delivery director' until 2022, where she brought her own special brand of industrial relations to the table. She was then moved on from Royal Mail and she went to Amazon, where she was responsible for their distribution centres in West Yorkshire; famous, as you say, for their adherence to the very best standard in treating employees fairly and with dignity.
These issues started in the late spring, just after her arrival, even though double Voyager workings with an RSM in the front set have been OK for 20 years. It must just all be a pure coincidence. I blame the greedy RMT, or something.
Bevan Price
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Makes me wonder how XC would manage if railways still had non-corrodor compartment stock...............
OvergroundMatt
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- 31 May 2017
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- 65
It looks like a complete horror show on Cross Country today. Ten services stopped short, 32 cancelled throughout, four short-formations, all blamed on shortage of drivers or crew. That surely suggests a rostering screw-up rather than just a few calling in “sick”?
Passengers already frustrated?
Passengers already frustrated?
It's been like that for ages. It turns out that in the long term poaching qualified drivers rather than having a robust system in place for training your own leaves you wide open when they decide to retire at a similar time.
See also: wages reaching a point where people don't want to work overtime to cover, large payments being agreed for a period and then subsequently withdrawn.
Added issues with the guards not wishing to work overtime to deal with the "festive merrymakers" misbehaving at the most "wonderful" time of the year and the end result is being unable to crew a lot of trains.
See also: wages reaching a point where people don't want to work overtime to cover, large payments being agreed for a period and then subsequently withdrawn.
Added issues with the guards not wishing to work overtime to deal with the "festive merrymakers" misbehaving at the most "wonderful" time of the year and the end result is being unable to crew a lot of trains.
Whatever the causes, it is no way to runa customer-facing business where your customers need a high degree of certainty weeks in advance.
It's also not worth carrying out overtime when Christmas Eve is paid at exactly the same rate as any other day and if you're at risk of getting stuck the other side of the country when something goes wrong such as a points failure or (as frequently happens sadly this time of year) a fatality.
No, it's rubbish, but it's also been like it for a few years now.
Meanwhile at a TOC up the road without toxic industrial relations I am aware that Tuesday saw both union reps on release and suitably competent managers sat together getting people to cover trains and then going out to work out what was left themselves to avoid cancellations.
D1537
Established Member
A lot of very long distance trains with reduced or no catering, as well.
Meanwhile, the last train from Birmingham to Bristol is cancelled. But it's OK, because you can get the Nottingham-Cardiff to Gloucester to connect with the last GWR to Bristol. Or you would be able to, if the Cardiff (also, of course, the last train) wasn't cancelled as well...
Meanwhile, the last train from Birmingham to Bristol is cancelled. But it's OK, because you can get the Nottingham-Cardiff to Gloucester to connect with the last GWR to Bristol. Or you would be able to, if the Cardiff (also, of course, the last train) wasn't cancelled as well...
Hairyspotter
Member
They haven't so it's a worthless point.
YorkshireBear
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I now drive to Cornwall to see family rather than risk it on the train. Especially now I have a child in tow.
Great shame as I despise the A42/M42/M5!
I hope the government don't use GBR as an excuse to delay sorting this out, it needs sorting out now. It seems worse than TPE when they were brought in house.
Great shame as I despise the A42/M42/M5!
I hope the government don't use GBR as an excuse to delay sorting this out, it needs sorting out now. It seems worse than TPE when they were brought in house.
There’s also the good will bit. When you’re hugely reliant on it, it’s best not to pee all over it. (See double set issues.)
But, as ever, we’ll probably never know the true extent of DfT’s ‘contribution’ to the XC clusterduck.
JKP
Member
Why should you be paid more for working Christmas Eve? It is not a holiday.
Hairyspotter
Member
It isn't. And people not rostered to work it evidently don't consider it worth their while to sacrifice their time off to go in to work as a result. I'm not sure the argument that staff are paid "too much" to not need to work overtime is necessarily the best one to make though....
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Ok. Let's turn it around:
You are on leave on Xmas eve and your boss rings asking you to go in, on your day off, for the same pay as a normal day.
Do you go?
I wouldn't go in! Why should a train guard or driver?
To financially motivate an employee to come into work as overtime on a day that the majority would want to have off in order to protect the service and prevent cancelations.
The alternative is the Cross Country scenario
The Planner
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Don't rely on overtime?
YorkshireBear
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If you are already on leave then you aren't going in realistically, no matter how much is offered (certainly not in large numbers).
If my leave was denied I would not expect extra pay to work as normal Christmas eve is another angle.
I think we can all turn this one around to various angles to suit our own views. It's a tough one without the ongoing relations issues at XC, that is probably the main cause, not how much is being paid.
The “too much” argument is not so much about the actual level, but that around and above certain thresholds the rate of return for extra work becomes minimal or even negative. An entirely invented example - you live at reasonably cheap rent in a property restricted to those earning less than 50K. You currently earn £49.5K basic- how much overtime are you likely to volunteer for? OK few cases are that simple but there are can be more disincentives to overtime than just “I’m managing comfortably without it.”. As has frequently been stated, the problem is with a system that relies on overtime to function normally - not with those who may or may not choose to work it.
rd749249
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Negotiate all overtime 1.5x. Like we have at ours.
Zerothebrake!
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But RDW is already at 2.5x rate.
Lewisham2221
Established Member
It's almost like train crew might value family time as much as the punters do.
Hint: Employee enough staff so that you're not relying on overtime.
And before anybody starts, there's a significant difference between being rostered to work and being expected to work overtime. All train crew know full well that they're going to have to work earlies, lates, weekends etc and potentially miss out on social and family events. That's a completely different kettle of fish to being expected to sacrifice family/social time, on rostered rest days or leave days, because your employer can't/won't employ enough staff in the first place.
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Or perhaps isn’t allowed to? (Organ grinder vs monkey department.)
Lewisham2221
Established Member
Fair point, edited. My point was that (some) people inevitably end up turning this against the staff and union's, when it's ultimately almost always "the powers that be" at fault.
Agree entirely. Staff work, managers manage.
185143
Established Member
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- 3 Mar 2013
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- 5,331
Correct. As railway staff who isn't paid any premium for rest day working, why should I come in today?
I've finished a run of 7 nights yesterday morning and I'm back on earlies on the 27th. Even at our Bank Holiday double rate, you wouldn't have got me in today given I'm not rostered. I worked a "night" shift last Christmas Eve FWIW, so I'm willing to go in if rostered to.