UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[Noddy]

I didn't either, but I didn't want to give @bspahh too much of a hard time because he's commenting in good faith and is answering the question "Do you think that the UK switching to electric vehicles is realistic?" from his point of view. He certainly doesn't have to justify his decision making to me. We are all here to learn from each other and should feel able to express our own viewpoints.

That’s fair enough but in terms of learning points it is very important that folk understand if you stop at a rapid DC charger with a cold battery at a high state of charge you will get a very poor charging session. If you’re doing something else at the same time (going to the loo, getting food etc) that’s not an issue but if you’re choosing to sit for 15 minutes in a pub car park in this situation you are doing it wrong. You are certainly wasting your time and potentially other folks time as well. You wouldn’t make a detour to fill up your 600 mile range diesel if it still had over half a tank left unless there are exceptional circumstances.

 

[Mawkie]

it is very important that folk understand if you stop at a rapid DC charger with a cold battery at a high state of charge you will get a very poor charging session.

That's just physics, but worth reiterating for everyone.

I'm not terribly au fait with many car manufacturers, but presumably they all allow their cars to do some kind of pre-conditioning?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Well folks. Charging an EV seems to be a lot more "interesting" than just going to the petrol station and filling up with motion lotion in roughly five minutes. Price differences are more extreme for EVs (for ICE its only really necessary to avoid motorway service stations).

We all know it takes longer than ICE generally to fill up.

I have now learnt that the battery is better off warm before expecting it to accept a charge.

Personally I understand the physics enough but for many the charging process will be challenging.
So it is a bit like all the struggling NiCad mobile phone batteries I nursed back to near full capacity last century. Lots of punters did not understand the memory effect - charging from nowhere near empty dramatically reduced the battery capacity - called "memory effect" iirc. Not applicable to EVs but indicates the level of understanding the average EV owner might have.

On a different tack - I had a lift from an EV owner a few days ago. He bought the car at 11 months old for £19k when it was £40k new. I totally forgot to notice make and or model !. He only charges at home and only drives round London - to me that seems ideal as battery range will mean he only needs home charging which he confirmed. He said if he drove more long distance and/or did not have a drive then ICE would still be tempting. He is annoyed by the looming charges for using the roads and considers he might not have switched if he had known.

The above suggests to me that a lot of EV owners might be getting caught out. If they never suspected a future need for the state to rake in money to cover the loss of fuel tax revenue plus the free road tax then I doubt they looked at the cost vs depreciation possibilities around an EV. I also doubt they considered the cost of a replacement battery down the life line. Now I would not go as far as to say EV owners have made a mistake BUT I do wonder how many EVs will be sold once all those willing to jump in with both feet have switched. The remaining ICE owners might be die hard ICE users but also might not be so easy to attract unless real economies can be seen.

I do think EVs are the inevitable way forward but I for one will be a late adopter as I do not want to be a guinea-pig. I will switch when I see a cheap reliable second hand EV. It will be so old that battery life will be a very important factor. I might be too old to drive by then AND I do think overall car ownership and our reliance on cars needs to reduce.

 

[Mawkie]

I have now learnt that the battery is better off warm before expecting it to accept a charge.

It's perfectly possible to charge a cold battery, but the charge will be slightly slower and therefore could take longer. My car 'pre-heats' the battery when I put a destination into the sat nav. I don't think about it as it's done automatically in the background.

He said if he drove more long distance and/or did not have a drive then ICE would still be tempting.

I think we need to challenge the idea that electric cars are hard to use, or can't be driven far. In fact, I'd thought we'd done that many times already! Let me ask you this... How many times would you (not the car, you) want to stop if you drove from Croydon to Zurich?



Would you be surprised to hear the car needs to charge twice?


The first stop for 20 mins and second stop for 38 mins. I don't know about you, but I would want to stop more often than that on a cross European trip.

He is annoyed by the looming charges for using the roads and considers he might not have switched if he had known.

The above suggests to me that a lot of EV owners might be getting caught out. If they never suspected a future need for the state to rake in money to cover the loss of fuel tax revenue plus the free road tax then I doubt they looked at the cost vs depreciation possibilities around an EV.

I think petrol prices should be itemised for clarity at the point of sale. If your friend wants to pay three times the rate per mile for petrol then go for it, but 3p a mile seems cheap by comparison. I don't think anyone is getting caught out, there can't be anyone that thought the government wouldn't have to replace the losses from the reduction in petrol and diesel sales. It will add £200 to my yearly motoring costs.

I also doubt they considered the cost of a replacement battery down the life line. Now I would not go as far as to say EV owners have made a mistake BUT I do wonder how many EVs will be sold once all those willing to jump in with both feet have switched.

Did you miss the video posted above (and the 1000s of others online) where electric cars have done intergalactic mileages without issue? The car in the video I posted yesterday has literally driven the same distance as to the moon! Not sure if I'd contemplate an ice car with 240,000 miles on the clock unless it was exceptionally cheap. The data just doesn't confirm the myth that batteries need replacing within the lifetime of the car. There are failures, but there are always failures in any manufacturing process - have a look at the 'wet belt' saga.

It's worth saying again that batteries also don't suddenly stop working at 50k, 150k, 200k, or 500k, there is a gradual decline. That decline is known, relatively predictable, and not something to worry about. In the R Symons video yesterday their car has done 238k miles and the battery is at 85% I think. For me that would mean my range at new was 340miles and is now 290miles. Most people simply don't buy a brand new car and keep it for 30 years. It's not the way we buy cars these days.

Even when there are problems with electric vehicles (and there are) there are a range of independent garages that are doing diagnosis and repair at fractions of the cost of what the mainstream dealers are charging.

I recommend OGS Mechanics as an interesting way to understand the issues with electric vehicles.

OGS & Mechanics

Welcome to OGS Mechanics — I’m George, a mechanic who’s been living and breathing cars since before I had a license. This channel isn’t about over-polished builds or fake drama. It’s about real problems, real fixes, and real passion. Whether it’s a hybrid that hasn’t started in months, a full...

youtube.com

 

[bspahh]

I respect that and understand your concerns over physical controls (I had exactly the same concerns, but I haven't touched the heating as it's automatic, as are the heated seats and steering wheel. So it became a non issue.)

Unfortunately, the first issue is still an issue. Its a shame as it seems like Teslas have some nice engineering according to the EV buying guide at https://evclinic.eu/2024/11/03/which-used-ev-to-buy-a-beginners-guide/ I won't quote it as it says

********** IT IS PROHIBITED TO COPY CONTENT WITHOUT THE APPROVAL OF EV CLINIC **********

It was one of those 1st gen Aldi chargers maybe run by Newmotion or something, got taken over by Shell Recharge I think.

Yes, its an 11kW Shell Recharge site https://electroverse.com/map?extId=98ebb2d1-9d5e-4777-8745-d2cfca96f1e7
I used that on a Scottish trip. I had charged up in Oban, driven down the Mull of Kintyre and back to Glasgow, by which time I was on about 10% charge. I needed another 15-20% charge to get to my hotel.

I missed the turning to some 150kW Osprey chargers. I picked the nearest charger in Waze, found it was a 7kW one. I then picked this one in the Electroverse app, couldn't find it and then went back to the Osprey chargers.

I don’t understand why you needed to charge the car so much if you were only there a couple of days.

If you left Cambridgeshire at 75% why stop at Welwyn Garden City when it’s just down the road? You still would have been at well over 50-60% and unless you preheated it had a cold battery so would have had poor charging session even at a 150kw charger, which would have only added a small amount of charge in this time. Why not go a bit further and use one of the chargers along the M4, which would have given you a much better charging session, would have added a lot more energy in the same time, and meant you would have arrived in the bath area with a much higher state of charge.

On my Bath trip, I would have ideally started with 100% charge at home. I didn't. It was cold and at 70mph, my EV3 does about 3 miles per kW.

With the charge I had, I needed another topup to have enough charge to get to Bath and onto the Beckington Travelodge, 10 miles South of Bath with a comfortable margin. I could do that anywhere. The M25 and M4 are not noted for their tourist hotspots, so I picked the Ionity charging station at Knebworth, as its a genuinely nice place to charge. I preconditioned the battery, and then missed the turning to it. I then picked the Osprey site in Welwyn Garden City. I was driving on the A1M and didn't have the chance to check the reviews on Tripadvisor. 15 minutes at 125kW was enough.

Why charge at both 3 and 4? And after the working BP rapids (4)* your car should have been at 80-100% which would have been enough for all your local journeys for the rest of the trip (such as to Frome) and a chunk/all the way home.

The blink chargers in Frome are on Electroverse (Blink have been an Electroverse partner since the year dot) so no need to install another app.

*There are no BP pulse chargers in bath near any of the Travelodges so I assume you mean another network or were at not at a travelodge.

The BP rapid chargers next to the Beckington Travelodge cost 89p/kWh, and its not recommended to use a DC charger to 100%.

The blink charger in Frome costs 54p/kWh. I might have used my Electroverse card. I forget. I have the blink app installed. I do remember that it didn't charge my car.

The Pod Point chargers at Bath University and Lansdown Park & Ride cost 55p/kWh. They were slow, but I was parking there in any case. I used the BP Pulse charger after the University one, because the battery it was still only about 50% charged.

The Pod Point chargers only work with the Pod Point app, which was my original point. I don't have to install an app to buy diesel.

 

[telstarbox]

Well 200 pages later...

This thread started in May 2022 when pure electrics were 12% of new car sales according to the SMMT figures, with plug-in hybrids at 6%. Now they have both doubled to 26% and 12% respectively. Rapid chargers are popping up everywhere and there is a wider range of EVs to buy, particularly at the supermini end.

So I think we can say the prospect is 'realistic' if not a complete done deal?

 

[Noddy]

On my Bath trip, I would have ideally started with 100% charge at home. I didn't. It was cold and at 70mph, my EV3 does about 3 miles per kW.

With the charge I had, I needed another topup to have enough charge to get to Bath and onto the Beckington Travelodge, 10 miles South of Bath with a comfortable margin. I could do that anywhere. The M25 and M4 are not noted for their tourist hotspots, so I picked the Ionity charging station at Knebworth, as its a genuinely nice place to charge. I preconditioned the battery, and then missed the turning to it. I then picked the Osprey site in Welwyn Garden City. I was driving on the A1M and didn't have the chance to check the reviews on Tripadvisor. 15 minutes at 125kW was enough.

The BP rapid chargers next to the Beckington Travelodge cost 89p/kWh, and its not recommended to use a DC charger to 100%.

The blink charger in Frome costs 54p/kWh. I might have used my Electroverse card. I forget. I have the blink app installed. I do remember that it didn't charge my car.

The Pod Point chargers at Bath University and Lansdown Park & Ride cost 55p/kWh. They were slow, but I was parking there in any case. I used the BP Pulse charger after the University one, because the battery it was still only about 50% charged.

The Pod Point chargers only work with the Pod Point app, which was my original point. I don't have to install an app to buy diesel.

I’m still very confused with all this, especially the decision to stop so early in Hertfordshire when you left Cambridgeshire at 75%. There are lots of large charging stations on the M4 or just off. Fundamentally you made choices which meant you choose to charge six times, and with the first choice it meant you just wasted your own time. You didn’t need to charge six times, a couple at most, and given what you’ve said about your EV3 if you had left Cambridgeshire on a 100% you could possibly have got away with charging once.

*There is nothing wrong with any charging to 100%, whether on AC or DC. What you don’t want to do is to have it sat at 100% for days or weeks on end but this doesn’t apply to your trip.

 

[bspahh]

I’m still very confused with all this, especially the decision to stop so early in Hertfordshire when you left Cambridgeshire at 75%. There are lots of large charging stations on the M4 or just off. Fundamentally you made choices which meant you choose to charge six times, and with the first choice it meant you just wasted your own time. You didn’t need to charge six times, a couple at most, and given what you’ve said about your EV3 if you had left Cambridgeshire on a 100% you could possibly have got away with charging once.

*There is nothing wrong with any charging to 100%, whether on AC or DC. What you don’t want to do is to have it sat at 100% for days or weeks on end but this doesn’t apply to your trip.

Charging in Welwyn Garden City got me enough charge to get to my destination. The battery still ended up at less than 80%, so it was still quick to charge. Charging early meant that if the charging failed, I would still be able to use other chargers later in the journey.

Using a fast charger when the battery is over 80% is slower, and it would have cost me 89p/kWh instead of 54p/kWh from the slow charger.

I used 6 chargers, because 2 of them didn't work.

If I had set off from home with 100% charge, things would have been different. I didn't. They weren't.

 

[Harpers Tate]

We all know it takes longer than ICE generally to fill up.
.... He is annoyed by the looming charges for using the roads and considers he might not have switched if he had known. The above suggests to me that a lot of EV owners might be getting caught out. If they never suspected a future need for the state to rake in money to cover the loss of fuel tax revenue plus the free road tax

Time taken to fill up: practically zero, if it's done whilst you are doing something else you were going to do anyway. 20 minute R&R stop at the roadside, with a top up happening during, is no overhead. Home charging overnight - ditto. I can't begin to estimate how much time I have saved not having to visit petrol stations in my 60-odd k miles driving EVs.

It's not more difficult and not more time consuming overall; it just has to be thought of in a different way.

Road fee: yes, but it's still way less than the 5-10p/mile liquid fuel users pay. There is a psychology at play here; nothing more. It is (and therefore looks like) an extra burden. Rather than it being rolled up in and hidden by the once per (week/fortnight/month) cost to fill a liquid tank.

 

[Bald Rick]

There’s a superb piece in the Christmas Private Eye, which I shall type out as Lord Gnome doesn’t do online. Credit and copyright to them.

Badenoch announces new car policy
How it will work:

* 2029: New Conservative government immediately scraps requirement for cars to go electric by 2035

* Manufacturers stop bothering to make electric cars and soar ahead in the business of providing petrol and diesel cars, whose sales have been declining globally since 2018

* China is so impressed that it stops selling EVs to the world at $10,000 each, and voluntarily disbands its massive EV factories

* Britain once again rules the world


In other news I saw a Renault 4 EV for the first time this morning. Funky, but not for me.

 

[gabrielhj07]

There’s a superb piece in the Christmas Private Eye, which I shall type out as Lord Gnome doesn’t do online. Credit and copyright to them.

Badenoch announces new car policy
How it will work:

* 2029: New Conservative government immediately scraps requirement for cars to go electric by 2035

* Manufacturers stop bothering to make electric cars and soar ahead in the business of providing petrol and diesel cars, whose sales have been declining globally since 2018

* China is so impressed that it stops selling EVs to the world at $10,000 each, and voluntarily disbands its massive EV factories

* Britain once again rules the world


In other news I saw a Renault 4 EV for the first time this morning. Funky, but not for me.

Even better, I thought, was the article just below

 

[Bald Rick]

Even better, I thought, was the article just below

Do you know I mised that. But yes, very good. The Wolf is in trouble (politics and Premier League).

 

[Topological]

The last few pages of this thread got me wondering how much it would cost me to use an EV for my usual mileage. It seems about £500 per year. Most weeks I am putting £60-£70 of diesel in so I could easily make a £2000 saving per year on fuel switching.

I have to factor in that some public charging will be unavoidable as it is not easy to do London return (for example) without charging. At 350 miles return it is nominally doable, but I would be mad to attempt it. I couldn't do work return (416 miles), but then I don't drive that very often anyway.

It is tempting, but I do like my diesel.

 

[Sun Chariot]

The last few pages of this thread got me wondering how much it would cost me to use an EV for my usual mileage. It seems about £500 per year. Most weeks I am putting £60-£70 of diesel in so I could easily make a £2000 saving per year on fuel switching.

I have to factor in that some public charging will be unavoidable as it is not easy to do London return (for example) without charging. At 350 miles return it is nominally doable, but I would be mad to attempt it. I couldn't do work return (416 miles), but then I don't drive that very often anyway.

It is tempting, but I do like my diesel.

My two biggest sticking-points are:
a) upfront purchase cost. I don't want finance. I am 6'6" and a lot of EVs simply don't fit me. My current diesel car's a dealer demonstrator, £14k at 11 months old. EV 'D-segment' cannot match that.
b) home charging. We do not have means to install a charger. So we'd need to charge on public facilities every time

 

[Snow1964]

The last few pages of this thread got me wondering how much it would cost me to use an EV for my usual mileage. It seems about £500 per year. Most weeks I am putting £60-£70 of diesel in so I could easily make a £2000 saving per year on fuel switching.

I have to factor in that some public charging will be unavoidable as it is not easy to do London return (for example) without charging. At 350 miles return it is nominally doable, but I would be mad to attempt it. I couldn't do work return (416 miles), but then I don't drive that very often anyway.

Depending on the vehicle will affect the range. Most EVs have a range (official WLTP) of around 250 miles, longer range cars can do 350-400 miles. Expect around 95% of that in summer, nearer 75% in colder winter weather.

If you can use overnight electricity a 7 hour charge will give about 200 miles (at around 6.5 - 7p per unit). If you need more and need to use daytime rates assume around 26-29p per unit. A unit will give about 3.7 - 4miles in summer, snout 3.1-3.5 miles in winter. Of course if only doing one long journey every couple of days, can fully charge over 2 nights.

Using rapid chargers when away or needing a top up expect to cost 75-90p per unit, but some sites are now cheaper, around 60p upwards. It is often cheaper rate using an app than paying contactless.

If you do around 800-1000 miles a month, and can charge overnight will be paying around £12 in electricity, rather than around £120-140 in fuel, roughly £100 saving a month.

If you need to use public overnight (slower) charging then depending on rate charged (say 50p per unit) only going to save around 30% vs petrol/diesel (not 90-93% saving that overnight home charging would give)

 

[HSTEd]

It seems that a BYD Dophin Surf is now one of the cheapest new cars available.

Basic trim is ~£17,935, and even a Dacia Sandero is north of £14,000 now.

 

[bspahh]

Depending on the vehicle will affect the range. Most EVs have a range (official WLTP) of around 250 miles, longer range cars can do 350-400 miles. Expect around 95% of that in summer, nearer 75% in colder winter weather.

The WLTP ranges for electric cars are meant as a way of comparing different cars, rather than being the range that you would get in real world use.

https://ev-database.org/imp/ is pretty good for the range that you can realistically get. The range will be quite a bit shorter if you cruise at high speed, and if the weather is cold.

I have a KIA EV3. On some owners groups, there are people who like to show off the 400 mile predicted range on their dashboard. However, that probably means that they drive at low speeds, where the efficiency will be better, and probably with the AIR model which has smaller wheels and tyres, which have better range. My car has the bigger 19" wheels. I got a range of ~380 miles in the summer, after a drive on Norfolk country lanes, where tractors and caravans meant the average speed was 40mph. Cruising at 70mph in the winter drops the range quite a bit to less than 250 miles.

 

[Topological]

My two biggest sticking-points are:
a) upfront purchase cost. I don't want finance. I am 6'6" and a lot of EVs simply don't fit me. My current diesel car's a dealer demonstrator, £14k at 11 months old. EV 'D-segment' cannot match that.
b) home charging. We do not have means to install a charger. So we'd need to charge on public facilities every time

Both fair.

We have a work scheme for salary sacrifice which makes finance quite attractive and means a new car. The diesel is a second-hand hand and I would look at ex ex-demonstration if I was going to replace with cash.

It was also easy to fit the home charger at chez Topological, with space for another (albeit next to it) if needed. The wires would allow the cars to be in different places. This is what neighbours have done.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Dec 2025 ==

Depending on the vehicle will affect the range. Most EVs have a range (official WLTP) of around 250 miles, longer range cars can do 350-400 miles. Expect around 95% of that in summer, nearer 75% in colder winter weather.

The one I am looking at is 380, though realistically I would not expect to get it by the time all the gadgets are switched on. It is notable the difference between the "Max" and the "Expected" on the display.

As you say though, temperatures and things impact and so that really brings the London return into "impossible" territory on anything but a perfect run.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Dec 2025 ==

The WLTP ranges for electric cars are meant as a way of comparing different cars, rather than being the range that you would get in real world use.

https://ev-database.org/imp/ is pretty good for the range that you can realistically get. The range will be quite a bit shorter if you cruise at high speed, and if the weather is cold.

I have a KIA EV3. On some owners groups, there are people who like to show off the 400 mile predicted range on their dashboard. However, that probably means that they drive at low speeds, where the efficiency will be better, and probably with the AIR model which has smaller wheels and tyres, which have better range. My car has the bigger 19" wheels. I got a range of ~380 miles in the summer, after a drive on Norfolk country lanes, where tractors and caravans meant the average speed was 40mph. Cruising at 70mph in the winter drops the range quite a bit to less than 250 miles.

That is a nice website, the suggestion there is 340 versus the 380 WLTP.

It is the trips to Heathrow that would cause me to pause before getting rid of the diesel. I couldnt leave the car charging while I go overseas so it is a case of finding time to charge additional to the normal trip. Clearly the diesel does London return with no problems at all.

 

[notverydeep]

Sounds a lot like Range Rover then!

They were going to make them as reliable and well built as is normal for Chinese, Korean and Japanese cars. But they thought the only rational explanation for Range Rover’s success was that its shoddy build quality and unreliability were what led customers to choose them, so they had no alternative but to emulate these characteristics. Seems to be working, I’ve seen several lately!

 

[Harpers Tate]

Just a reminder for those who
- can (could)(do) have a home charging option
- but consider some roadside charging at extortionate prices is going to be necessary given their usage pattern

that when having to use a roadside outlet, the economic thing to do is only put in as much as you need (plus a margin, of course) to get back home. It isn't beneficial in any way to fill the car. If you have a real-world range of (say) 300 miles on a 400 mile trip then a roadside top up equating to ~150 miles is all you need.

And then you need to consider not the +/- 75p/unit that cost, but average it alongside the greater number of home units (at ~7.5p) you added before and after the trip.

 

[Noddy]

It is the trips to Heathrow that would cause me to pause before getting rid of the diesel. I couldnt leave the car charging while I go overseas so it is a case of finding time to charge additional to the normal trip. Clearly the diesel does London return with no problems at all.

ParkGiant offer parking and EV charging at Heathrow. I can’t speak to their prices or reliability but if you google it you’ll find them. I imagine many/all of the third party parking companies at Heathrow offer similar services for charging EVs.

 

[Topological]

ParkGiant offer parking and EV charging at Heathrow. I can’t speak to their prices or reliability but if you google it you’ll find them. I imagine many/all of the third party parking companies at Heathrow offer similar services for charging EVs.

That is quite a useful service. Definitely something to keep in mind. Thank you.

I am an economist though and pay a lot less when parking at Heathrow than most car park providers charge.

 

[jon0844]

At some point, long stay car parks will have more and more people expecting to be able to trickle charge. At first people may pay extra for the convenience, then later people will possibly seek to book only with companies that offer it. At that point, you can expect most car parks to offer charging facilities.

If set up intelligently, the chargers can provide a low charge rate and balance over the whole car park. I suppose you could potentially say when you are returning to have the charge managed only on the day/day before you return to further manage things intelligently - and not require huge infrastructure upgrades even if you potentially have many hundreds of charging points.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It's perfectly possible to charge a cold battery, but the charge will be slightly slower and therefore could take longer. My car 'pre-heats' the battery when I put a destination into the sat nav. I don't think about it as it's done automatically in the background.

I think we need to challenge the idea that electric cars are hard to use, or can't be driven far. In fact, I'd thought we'd done that many times already! Let me ask you this... How many times would you (not the car, you) want to stop if you drove from Croydon to Zurich?

I think EVs are a bit harder to use than ICE but not prohibitively so for me. Some people will struggle - I can think of many who really do not plan and rely on a ready supply of petrol stations (while there are still many available at the moment). I do tend to fill up before a long journey - after all the time penalty for filling up vs a partial fill is minimal. I would only put the minimum in required if the petrol was expensive (motorway service stations but the price difference is not as dramatic as for electricity any way and I have never filled up at a service station).

.................................

I think petrol prices should be itemised for clarity at the point of sale. If your friend wants to pay three times the rate per mile for petrol then go for it, but 3p a mile seems cheap by comparison. I don't think anyone is getting caught out, there can't be anyone that thought the government wouldn't have to replace the losses from the reduction in petrol and diesel sales. It will add £200 to my yearly motoring costs.

Did you miss the video posted above (and the 1000s of others online) where electric cars have done intergalactic mileages without issue? The car in the video I posted yesterday has literally driven the same distance as to the moon! Not sure if I'd contemplate an ice car with 240,000 miles on the clock unless it was exceptionally cheap. The data just doesn't confirm the myth that batteries need replacing within the lifetime of the car. There are failures, but there are always failures in any manufacturing process - have a look at the 'wet belt' saga.

It's worth saying again that batteries also don't suddenly stop working at 50k, 150k, 200k, or 500k, there is a gradual decline. That decline is known, relatively predictable, and not something to worry about. In the R Symons video yesterday their car has done 238k miles and the battery is at 85% I think. For me that would mean my range at new was 340miles and is now 290miles. Most people simply don't buy a brand new car and keep it for 30 years. It's not the way we buy cars these days.

I think the past history of EV batteries and the rumours/stories added to that history are something that will take time to overcome.
At the end of the day ICE cars when first in existence were subject to negative publicity / scepticism.
As for steam trains causing asphyxia if allowed to go over 30 (? iirc) mph back in the 18:00s.....

Even when there are problems with electric vehicles (and there are) there are a range of independent garages that are doing diagnosis and repair at fractions of the cost of what the mainstream dealers are charging.

I recommend OGS Mechanics as an interesting way to understand the issues with electric vehicles.

OGS & Mechanics

Welcome to OGS Mechanics — I’m George, a mechanic who’s been living and breathing cars since before I had a license. This channel isn’t about over-polished builds or fake drama. It’s about real problems, real fixes, and real passion. Whether it’s a hybrid that hasn’t started in months, a full...

youtube.com

Oh yes there will be a growing number of independent garages catering for EVs as the average age of EVs increases.
I never take a car to a dealer but I never buy a car that is new enough to need the service history.
So I will be looking at really old EVs when I do look.
I am at the end of life end of car buying - I buy older cars and keep them.

Well 200 pages later...

This thread started in May 2022 when pure electrics were 12% of new car sales according to the SMMT figures, with plug-in hybrids at 6%. Now they have both doubled to 26% and 12% respectively. Rapid chargers are popping up everywhere and there is a wider range of EVs to buy, particularly at the supermini end.

So I think we can say the prospect is 'realistic' if not a complete done deal?

EV car sales might peak while ICE sales are still significant. It really depends on what sort of people are left buying ICEs.
Are they only die hard petrol heads (vocal minority) ?.
Are they people who have no chance of home charging (a significant number I suggest) ?.
Are they people who cannot be bothered with EVs ?.
Are they people who foresee the innevitable rising costs of EVs (not necessarily a significant cost but will it be a significant factor) ?.

As the number of petrol stations declines will we see more NEW ICE purchases from people nearer a conveient petrol station.

Time taken to fill up: practically zero, if it's done whilst you are doing something else you were going to do anyway. 20 minute R&R stop at the roadside, with a top up happening during, is no overhead. Home charging overnight - ditto. I can't begin to estimate how much time I have saved not having to visit petrol stations in my 60-odd k miles driving EVs.

It's not more difficult and not more time consuming overall; it just has to be thought of in a different way.

Road fee: yes, but it's still way less than the 5-10p/mile liquid fuel users pay. There is a psychology at play here; nothing more. It is (and therefore looks like) an extra burden. Rather than it being rolled up in and hidden by the once per (week/fortnight/month) cost to fill a liquid tank.

Time taken to charge the EV is significant if no home charging possible.
For me in my ICE it is done the day before at the local petrol station.

My two biggest sticking-points are:
a) upfront purchase cost. I don't want finance. I am 6'6" and a lot of EVs simply don't fit me. My current diesel car's a dealer demonstrator, £14k at 11 months old. EV 'D-segment' cannot match that.
b) home charging. We do not have means to install a charger. So we'd need to charge on public facilities every time

Same for me.
I do not buy new or anywhere new new, car most likely to be an over ten/fifteen year old car.
No home charging possible.

I might add that my mileage is so low that fuel costs are less significant. Road tax is significant (an unfair tax not based on actual use imo) plus we will see how much road tax for EVs will creep up.

Depending on the vehicle will affect the range. Most EVs have a range (official WLTP) of around 250 miles, longer range cars can do 350-400 miles. Expect around 95% of that in summer, nearer 75% in colder winter weather.

If you can use overnight electricity a 7 hour charge will give about 200 miles (at around 6.5 - 7p per unit). If you need more and need to use daytime rates assume around 26-29p per unit. A unit will give about 3.7 - 4miles in summer, snout 3.1-3.5 miles in winter. Of course if only doing one long journey every couple of days, can fully charge over 2 nights.

Using rapid chargers when away or needing a top up expect to cost 75-90p per unit, but some sites are now cheaper, around 60p upwards. It is often cheaper rate using an app than paying contactless.

If you do around 800-1000 miles a month, and can charge overnight will be paying around £12 in electricity, rather than around £120-140 in fuel, roughly £100 saving a month.

If you need to use public overnight (slower) charging then depending on rate charged (say 50p per unit) only going to save around 30% vs petrol/diesel (not 90-93% saving that overnight home charging would give)

+

The WLTP ranges for electric cars are meant as a way of comparing different cars, rather than being the range that you would get in real world use.

https://ev-database.org/imp/ is pretty good for the range that you can realistically get. The range will be quite a bit shorter if you cruise at high speed, and if the weather is cold.

I have a KIA EV3. On some owners groups, there are people who like to show off the 400 mile predicted range on their dashboard. However, that probably means that they drive at low speeds, where the efficiency will be better, and probably with the AIR model which has smaller wheels and tyres, which have better range. My car has the bigger 19" wheels. I got a range of ~380 miles in the summer, after a drive on Norfolk country lanes, where tractors and caravans meant the average speed was 40mph. Cruising at 70mph in the winter drops the range quite a bit to less than 250 miles.

To be fair I suppose the manufacturers EV range versus real world range discrepancy is no different to the boasts manufacturers make about ICE fuel consumption !.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Time taken to charge the EV is significant if no home charging possible.
For me in my ICE it is done the day before at the local petrol station.

My point is: only if you treat it as a standalone action. If you do it while you are having lunch out, shopping, (or choose your own thing that takes 20-30 minutes or more) or en route while you are satsifying your own physical needs then in those circumstances, it needn't be.

 

[Class 317]

My point is: only if you treat it as a standalone action. If you do it while you are having lunch out, shopping, (or choose your own thing that takes 20-30 minutes or more) or en route while you are satsifying your own physical needs then in those circumstances, it needn't be.

Having never driven an ICE the idea of a special trip to fill up seems very strange!

 

[greyman42]

Do you know I mised that. But yes, very good. The Wolf is in trouble (politics and Premier League).

Who is The Wolf?

 

[ABB125]

Who is The Wolf?

Kemi Badenoch.
Several locomotives (all associated with Scotland) have carried the name Wolf of Badenoch, most recently 90002. Hence the (rather good) nickname of The Wolf.

For interest, Wikipedia has this introduction to its article on the original Wolf:

Alexander Stewart, Earl of Buchan, called the Wolf of Badenoch[2] (1343 – July 1394), was a Scottish royal prince, the third son of King Robert II of Scotland by his first wife Elizabeth Mure. He was Justiciar of Scotia and held large territories in the north of Scotland.

 

[trebor79]

To use a diesel pump, I never had to install an app, validate my email address, mobile phone and credit card before it will sell me diesel. I have had to do that for several chargers. I could have driven to another charger, that took an Electroverse or contactless card, but I wanted to use one that was convenient for where I was.

There have been times when I have left a filling station without being able to fill up with fuel, but has been pretty rare, much less frequent than once a year. I've had my electric car for 5 months, and it has happened about 10 times.

It has been for a variety of reasons: once I couldn't find the charger. Several times the chargers have been working, but used by someone else. Several times they has been out of action for everyone. Several times I have been able to log in, plug in and failed to get any charge. A couple of times the only available charger has been a 7kW one, so I gave up.

There are good things about electric cars. Charging it on a holiday or long journey isn't one of them.

I think you've been exceptionally unlucky. I've been doing about 30,000 miles a year for the past 3 years in EVs and can count on one hand the number of times I've been unable to charge.

The last few pages of this thread got me wondering how much it would cost me to use an EV for my usual mileage. It seems about £500 per year. Most weeks I am putting £60-£70 of diesel in so I could easily make a £2000 saving per year on fuel switching.

I have to factor in that some public charging will be unavoidable as it is not easy to do London return (for example) without charging. At 350 miles return it is nominally doable, but I would be mad to attempt it. I couldn't do work return (416 miles), but then I don't drive that very often anyway.

It is tempting, but I do like my diesel.

You won't miss your diesel.

350 miles is beyond the practical motorway range of just about any EV on the market at the moment. But a 5-10 minute pit stopfor a partial charge is all it would need to get home,assuming you can't charge in the car park.

 

[Harpers Tate]

...and don't forget: 300 miles takes ~5 hours to drive unencumbered by traffic. I suspect most humans will require to stop at least once during such a journey. During which time, another 100 miles (or more) might be added to an EV's range.,