Future of the 350/2s

[Snow1964]

The 5 car 450s would also be underpowered compared to the 4 car ones or 5 car 444s which won't help matters.

That is more software, they are electronically limited, and 4car has lower rating than 5car units because 5cars units do not work as part of triple sets in a train. As far as I am aware the 444s and 450 have interchangeable components and bogies, (and as initially ordered were going to be 5car suburban 450 versions, but was altered to 4car standard versions during the build.)

But I agree I don't think SWR would want some 4car extended to 5car.

If it didn't damage performance, EMR could possibly extend its 360s to 5car if it needed extra capacity, using spare vehicles if some 350s were reduced to 3car. Although I think chances of it happening are also very low.

 

[stevieinselby]

As always there are complications. North Clyde and Argyle lines are setup for 120m trains. 318s and 320s are 20m, 380s are 23m, so can't run 6-car 380s without selective door opening, which would be a pain for North Clyde and Argyle Lines. Could just do some moving about and use say 4-car 380s which would be halfway between a 3 and 6-car 20m set, and keep 350/2s as 4-car, but none are really very likely.

While the physical infrastructure may be set up for 6×20m sets, but is that what's needed? Genuine question, I've not used the lines so I don't know the answer, but could 4-car 350s meet the typical demand on those routes?

 

[geoffk]

I know ScotRail was ruled out as a potential taker for the 350/2s as they need 3 car units, not 4. A potential solution would be to use the 350/2s alongside 380/1s on services out of Glasgow Central to Wemyss Bay, Gourock, Largs, Ayr, and Ardrossan Harbour, as well as possibly Cathcart Circle services, running all services as 4 or 8 coaches (4 on Cathcart Circle). The 380/0s could then be cascaded to replace some of the 318s and 320s that currently operate on North Clyde and Argyle line services?

I've just looked at the train workings on the newly-electrified East Kilbride line and see that it has a mixture of 380s and 3x156. Does this suggest Scotrail is short of emus? I realise that transfer of 350s north of the border is not a straightforward option.

 

[Russel]

Regarding the Scottish electrified lines being set up for 3 / 6 car workings, thinking outside of the box, if capacity is actually needed, does this have to be a showstopper, it's not as if platforms haven't been extended in the past and SDO used where not possible...

I know there would be other complexities to overcome, but if the money and the will is there, then never say never.

Or maybe not.

 

[3RDGEN]

I've just looked at the train workings on the newly-electrified East Kilbride line and see that it has a mixture of 380s and 3x156. Does this suggest Scotrail is short of emus? I realise that transfer of 350s north of the border is not a straightforward option.

The peak service see's 156's and during the day there's one diagram pathed for 156 timing but they are running 380's in that so I suspect if they are short of 380's they can drop 156's back in. It was always planned to have some 156's on the route as they don't have enough EMU's currently to replace all the 156 diagrams to East Kilbride.

 

[wickham]

Updated list on 22/12/25:

Stored Northampton Kings Heath Depot (off lease, awaiting movement to Long Marston):
250/254

Stored Wembley Yard (off lease, awaiting movement to Long Marston):
240/241

Stored Long Marston (off lease):
231/232/233/234/235/236/237/238/239/242/243/244/245/246/247/248/249/251/252/253/255/256/257/258/259/260/261/262/263/264/265/266/267

So only two more drags to go ! It is being claimed elsewhere that the 350/2 will go to Northern (Manchester area) for May 2026 timetable, but is there any thruth in this? That is only 6 months away and one would have thought that Northern would be wanting some now for training etc if this is true, rather than sending them all off to Long Marston. There could be some truth in this, as it would allow more 331s to be sent to the Leeds area and possibly get rid of the 769s !!

 

[Mamorin]

So only two more drags to go ! It is being claimed elsewhere that the 350/2 will go to Northern (Manchester area) for May 2026 timetable, but is there any thruth in this? That is only 6 months away and one would have thought that Northern would be wanting some now for training etc if this is true, rather than sending them all off to Long Marston. There could be some truth in this, as it would allow more 331s to be sent to the Leeds area and possibly get rid of the 769s !!

There is an article in the latest issue of Modern Railways about the 350/2s.

The article almost outright confirms what we already know that the trials in Manchester were a bust, as the 350 that was used could not keep to tight timetables.

The article also mentions that Northern are not 100% keen on taking on the 350/2 fleet, as Northern want to bring down the number of train types in its fleet.

769s can't be replaced by 331s since the route to Southport is not fully wired.

 

[Liam L]

The article also mentions that Northern are not 100% keen on taking on the 350/2 fleet, as Northern want to bring down the number of train types in its fleet.

769s can't be replaced by 331s since the route to Southport is not fully wired.

If they need more trains they could start with the 9 323s at Long Maraton which are identical to 34 they already operate.... Just a thought.

 

[swt_passenger]

So only two more drags to go ! It is being claimed elsewhere that the 350/2 will go to Northern (Manchester area) for May 2026 timetable, but is there any thruth in this?

Wherever ‘elsewhere’ is they must have completely missed our other 350/2 thread, (this one after posts moved), which has been fairly sure it wasn’t happening for quite a while now.

 

[Mamorin]

If they need more trains they could start with the 9 323s at Long Maraton which are identical to 34 they already operate.... Just a thought.

Not happening, issue 1049 of Rail Magazine has an in brief article which mentions 323221.

The article says that 323221 will be stored at Long Marston until it is sent for scrap.

So 323221 is 100% not going to Northern.

Can't see any of the other 8 units going to Northern given Northern are planning on buying new trains, and planning on scrapping its 323 fleet by 2031.

 

[Ribbleman]

Not happening, issue 1049 of Rail Magazine has an in brief article which mentions 323221.

The article says that 323221 will be stored at Long Marston until it is sent for scrap.

So 323221 is 100% not going to Northern.

Can't see any of the other 8 units going to Northern given Northern are planning on buying new trains, and planning on scrapping its 323 fleet by 2031.

Whilst it is certainly true that Northern needs more trains, it is diesel units that are in short supply, hence the interest in the TfW 158s. Leasing further 323s won’t help.

 

[Mamorin]

Which also means Northern don't really need the 350/2s right now.

Porterbrook have told Modern Railways that the 350/2s will only be stored at Long Marston in the "short term", though Porterbrook does not say how long the "short term" is.

Porterbrook has also told Modern Railways that Porterbrook is in "ongoing discussions" about the future of the 350/2s and where the 350/2s will be deployed next.

 

[dan2611_]

There is an article in the latest issue of Modern Railways about the 350/2s.

The article almost outright confirms what we already know that the trials in Manchester were a bust, as the 350 that was used could not keep to tight timetables.

The article also mentions that Northern are not 100% keen on taking on the 350/2 fleet, as Northern want to bring down the number of train types in its fleet.

769s can't be replaced by 331s since the route to Southport is not fully wired.

Am I right in saying the 350/2’s are Dual Voltage?

In theory could they be cascaded down south? I know SWR arent particularly fond of the 458s. So could they be used to boost capacity of the existing 450/444 fleet?

Just an idea.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Am I right in saying the 350/2’s are Dual Voltage?

No, only the /1s have ever been dual voltage

 

[gabrielhj07]

Am I right in saying the 350/2’s are Dual Voltage?

In theory could they be cascaded down south? I know SWR arent particularly fond of the 458s. So could they be used to boost capacity of the existing 450/444 fleet?

Just an idea.

There are too many 450s as it is, at least until they give the timetable a rethink.

 

[dan2611_]

No, only the /1s have ever been dual voltage

Apologies. Got confused for a moment. Couldnt remember if it was the /1s or /2s off the top of my head

 

[deltic08]

There is an article in the latest issue of Modern Railways about the 350/2s.

The article almost outright confirms what we already know that the trials in Manchester were a bust, as the 350 that was used could not keep to tight timetables.

The article also mentions that Northern are not 100% keen on taking on the 350/2 fleet, as Northern want to bring down the number of train types in its fleet.

769s can't be replaced by 331s since the route to Southport is not fully wired.

Are you thinking of the proposal on here to convert them to BEMUs? There are plenty of uses on Northern for BEMUs that would free up DMUs. If there isn't enough room below the solebar for batteries then two cabinets either side of the corridor at one end is possible.

 

[anthony263]

Apologies. Got confused for a moment. Couldnt remember if it was the /1s or /2s off the top of my head

Could I be possible to convert the 350/2's to dual voltage?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Could I be possible to convert the 350/2's to dual voltage?

Possible? Yes.
Economically sensible? Almost certainly not.

Returning the /1s to dual voltage (if it were that subclass set to be left homeless) would as I understand it be somewhat easier as at least some of the wiring and other equipment remains in place. This isn't the case with the later subclasses.

 

[Nym]

350/2s have the wiring, but not the boxes.

 

[tfw756rider]

Porterbrook have told Modern Railways that the 350/2s will only be stored at Long Marston in the "short term", though Porterbrook does not say how long the "short term" is.

Hopefully the "short term" isn't that long and we don't have another 379/175 situation with the 350/2s. Although even if we do, further use is perfectly possible, even if it's in late 2027.

Porterbrook has also told Modern Railways that Porterbrook is in "ongoing discussions" about the future of the 350/2s and where the 350/2s will be deployed next.

I wonder what these ongoing discussions are? I know that ScotRail has recently been mentioned in here as a potential future operator of the 350/2s, but does anyone know if they'd actually be interested in them?

 

[Russel]

Curious as to who Porterbrook may be talking to, given that after 52 pages of speculation on here, the only conclusion that we can come to is that there isn't really anywhere practical for them to go...

 

[waverley47]

Hopefully the "short term" isn't that long and we don't have another 379/175 situation with the 350/2s. Although even if we do, further use is perfectly possible, even if it's in late 2027.

I wonder what these ongoing discussions are? I know that ScotRail has recently been mentioned in here as a potential future operator of the 350/2s, but does anyone know if they'd actually be interested in them?

For legal reasons, I cannot confirm, but as far as we are aware, Porterbrook offered to put batteries in the 350s and give them to ScotRail, as a fudge for the BEMU contract.

Purely speculation, but I would heavily speculate that ScotRail asked them for the reliability data from the 769 conversion project, and a data set was sent. ScotRail then went for a chat with Northern, with some glaring questions from the data set, and asked about their experience with the whole thing. A hypothetical decision was made rather quickly inside TS that the 350 conversation would be wholly unsuitable and unsatisfactory, and that they would not be taking the option further.

ScotRail will categorically not be taking the 350s as battery units. As pure electrics, potentially, however that seems just as unlikely in the short to medium term.

 

[Mamorin]

Had a good feeling no TOC would want another 769 situation, and converting 350/2s to battery units may have ended up like the 769 conversion.

 

[brad465]

Had a good feeling no TOC would want another 769 situation, and converting 350/2s to battery units may have ended up like the 769 conversion.

Have batteries been fitted to at least one 350/2 and been tested? If not I can understand why there is no interest. However, the 350/2s are younger than 319/769s, and battery retrofitting for trials has a much better track record than diesel engine retrofitting, so while a trial/test should be pursued first, I'd like to think such a conversion will not repeat the failures of 769s.

 

[Russel]

Have batteries been fitted to at least one 350/2 and been tested? If not I can understand why there is no interest. However, the 350/2s are younger than 319/769s, and battery retrofitting for trials has a much better track record than diesel engine retrofitting, so while a trial/test should be pursued first, I'd like to think such a conversion will not repeat the failures of 769s.

ScotRail still have a responsibility to the tax payer so I don't blame them for turning this idea down, Unless the ROSCO was willing to offer them a very tempting contract where all of the risk lies with them...

But then, if the ROSCO was that desperate for these to find a home, then maybe they should have considered lowering the leasing costs when WMT started toying with the idea of replacing them.

 

[778]

ScotRail will categorically not be taking the 350s as battery units. As pure electrics, potentially, however that seems just as unlikely in the short to medium term.

Is it possible to fit pantographs to the 450s? They could take the 350/2s and some 450s from SWR, (as SWR have too many of them) to replace the 318s/320s.

If Northern or Scotrail don't want them maybe an open access operator will take them on?

Purely speculation, but I would heavily speculate that ScotRail asked them for the reliability data from the 769 conversion project, and a data set was sent.

They should have asked for reliability data from the 230 battery conversion project.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Is it possible to fit pantographs to the 450s? They could take the 350/2s and some 450s from SWR, (as SWR have too many of them) to replace the 318s/320s.

If Northern or Scotrail don't want them maybe an open access operator will take them on?

It's possible to fit pans to 450s, but 4-car units aren't suitable for replacing the 318s & 320s, as those routes through the low level stations in Glasgow need 3/6-car units.
There are other electrified routes in Scotland that could use 4-car units, but those routes (East Kilbride aside as that's a recent wiring and still has some diagrams worked by diesels) already have fairly modern units working them.

I'm not aware of any current or aspirational OA proposals that the 350s would be suitable for, but that's not to say something won't be proposed.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I'm not aware of any current or aspirational OA proposals that the 350s would be suitable for, but that's not to say something won't be proposed.

Does anyone know how much the acceleration of a 350 compares with a 222 at the limited bits of speed limit >110 on the South WCML (in relation to Lumo).

 

[Bill57p9]

The crayonista in me says 350/2s to EMR to get through gangways on Corby services, cascading the 360s to ScotRail to take over fixed 4 car Strathclyde services (East Kilbride, Barrhead, Newton, Neilston), freeing up 3 car 380s to replace 318s on Argyle Line and 156s from EK, potentially to allow Northern to escape their 769 misery.

Will never happen though

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Dec 2025 ==

If they were a bit more reliable, 769s would be a reasonable answer to Glasgow - Kilmarnock - Girvan. But they aren’t.