On what routes, if any does on train catering make a profit?

[dk1]

As somebody that regularly makes use off the first Northbound Newcastle to Edinburgh LNER service in First Class for the sum of £30.20 for a 1h40 journey, I was amazed by the THREE members of first class catering crew each time for the breakfast menu.

I'm usually the only one onboard!!!

I love it, but with my tax payer hat on, it's in no way economical. (Appreciate they then work the 0900 ex Edinburgh, which will be busier)

Sometimes you can’t worry about such trivial things. Just think of it as a lovely offering onboard. I’m sure they’ll be busier later in the day and under BR it was much much more labour intensive.

 

[deltic]

Sometimes you can’t worry about such trivial things. Just think of it as a lovely offering onboard. I’m sure they’ll be busier later in the day and under BR it was much much more labour intensive.

But its not trival, considerable amounts of money are wasted across the network.

 

[dk1]

But its not trival, considerable amounts of money are wasted across the network.

It’s always been like that. Just less so these days. It’s good to have some nice things and at least its keeping someone in a job.

 

[deltic]

It’s always been like that. Just less so these days. It’s good to have some nice things and at least its keeping someone in a job.

Then it needs to change, why do we expect taxpayers to subsidise catering for generally well off individuals? Railway catering is not a job creation policy.

 

[Starmill]

I would hope that the trolley run by the Settle and Carlisle volunteers on Northern services makes money.

Does anyone know if there's a schedule for this available? I've looked here: https://settle-carlisle.co.uk/catering-retail but can't spot anything...

I was impressed by a catering trolley in Austria recently which even had an espresso machine on it.

I find the espresso on a trolley remarkably impressive. Apparently it's the done thing in Italy, and Trenitalia in France.

 

[Highlander1]

Then it needs to change, why do we expect taxpayers to subsidise catering for generally well off individuals? Railway catering is not a job creation policy.

It's not a job creation policy. It's one quiet journey, the crew will work multiple services, which will be busier. The cost of providing it averages out. Some of these tickets cost hundreds of pounds and you expect the product and service that go with that price tag.

 

[dk1]

Then it needs to change, why do we expect taxpayers to subsidise catering for generally well off individuals? Railway catering is not a job creation policy.

We all look at things differently I suppose. After almost 41 years on the railway this is one of the least of the things I’d worry about in financial terms.

 

[gaillark]

On board catering especially with a buffet counter served not only to serve refreshments and make the journey more pleasurable. it also served as a customer service post. The amount of times that I witnessed passengers coming to the buffet for ticketing and connections advice was huge. This feature has been lost on the Hitachi 800 trains as there is no focal point for passengers to seek information, advice and of course purchase hot snacks and drinks as customer focal point counts for nothing on the railway today. I even witnessed a few people reporting a crime at the buffet counter - something stolen on the train.

@dk1 should be able to vouch for this - the restaurant car on the InterCity Anglia service between Liverpool Street and Norwich was very well patonrised throughout the day and served quality meals at very reasonable prices with friendly staff. Then National Express decided to get rid of the restaurant operation although it covered its costs but not enough profit as they wanted the first class seats to be first class and make most of the catering staff redundant. (Standard Class passengers could use the restaurant car in first class comfort). Even the amount of buffet car services got thinned over time. Thankly Greater Anglia still have a buffet counter (although they could concentrate the buffet trains on the Norwich route rather than running on Stansted which is a waste of a limited resource).

 

[Adrian1980uk]

On board catering especially with a buffet counter served not only to serve refreshments and make the journey more pleasurable. it also served as a customer service post. The amount of times that I witnessed passengers coming to the buffet for ticketing and connections advice was huge. This feature has been lost on the Hitachi 800 trains as there is no focal point for passengers to seek information, advice and of course purchase hot snacks and drinks as customer focal point counts for nothing on the railway today. I even witnessed a few people reporting a crime at the buffet counter - something stolen on the train.

@dk1 should be able to vouch for this - the restaurant car on the InterCity Anglia service between Liverpool Street and Norwich was very well patonrised throughout the day and served quality meals at very reasonable prices with friendly staff. Then National Express decided to get rid of the restaurant operation although it covered its costs but not enough profit as they wanted the first class seats to be first class and make most of the catering staff redundant. (Standard Class passengers could use the restaurant car in first class comfort). Even the amount of buffet car services got thinned over time. Thankly Greater Anglia still have a buffet counter (although they could concentrate the buffet trains on the Norwich route rather than running on Stansted which is a waste of a limited resource).

Greater Anglia I'm sure miss so much trade in bacon baps in the morning due to the fact on the 6:30 out of Norwich is a Stansted unit and the 7am is a risk if you want one, most people will get it in the station rather than risk the train being substituted for a Stansted one.

 

[dk1]

Greater Anglia I'm sure miss so much trade in bacon baps in the morning due to the fact on the 6:30 out of Norwich is a Stansted unit and the 7am is a risk if you want one, most people will get it in the station rather than risk the train being substituted for a Stansted one.

It’s weekends when the most trade is lost on such hot items and even though several of the more consciences members of staff ask for more they are limited to 12 or so and often sell out before Stowmarket. In the end they get weary at being so focused.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Back when Anglia had trains which had a restaurant car, I swear my friend and I used to invent reasons to go to Norwich, just so we could use them.

 

[dk1]

Back when Anglia had trains which had a restaurant car, I swear my friend and I used to invent reasons to go to Norwich, just so we could use them.

They were very good. Some excellent deals like ‘lunch in the diner, nothing could be finer’.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2025 ==

On board catering especially with a buffet counter served not only to serve refreshments and make the journey more pleasurable. it also served as a customer service post. The amount of times that I witnessed passengers coming to the buffet for ticketing and connections advice was huge. This feature has been lost on the Hitachi 800 trains as there is no focal point for passengers to seek information, advice and of course purchase hot snacks and drinks as customer focal point counts for nothing on the railway today. I even witnessed a few people reporting a crime at the buffet counter - something stolen on the train.

@dk1 should be able to vouch for this - the restaurant car on the InterCity Anglia service between Liverpool Street and Norwich was very well patonrised throughout the day and served quality meals at very reasonable prices with friendly staff. Then National Express decided to get rid of the restaurant operation although it covered its costs but not enough profit as they wanted the first class seats to be first class and make most of the catering staff redundant. (Standard Class passengers could use the restaurant car in first class comfort). Even the amount of buffet car services got thinned over time. Thankly Greater Anglia still have a buffet counter (although they could concentrate the buffet trains on the Norwich route rather than running on Stansted which is a waste of a limited resource).

They were well patronised but obviously not profitable although many said they came close. It was the 2008 financial crash that really took its toll but that recovered. Several staff were offered voluntary redundancy or alternative work with around 70 remaining. Trouble always was that if sets got swapped, often a non kitchen car ended up on a restaurant diagram so 3-4 members of staff had nothing to do. Obviously they loved this as slid off home early but that’s not great for the business. Back in Intercity days one diagram was known as the ‘Mary Celeste’ because apart from the busy breakfast & evening dinner servings, the staff spent all day doing a useless run to Lynn & back then 3 hours in sidings awaiting the return to Norwich.

 

[Rescars]

Once upon a time (in a very different era) train catering was really quite profitable. The Pullman Car Co made a good business of it.

 

[Pegpilot]

And not so long ago there was a TOC that really did have a wizard catering wheeze. They provided inclusive at-seat catering in First Class but they then stripped out the theoretical catering income from the ticket price and parked that not inconsiderable sum in a separate account, immune from the Orcats revenue sharing process. Now that's what I call creative cookery....

 

[Tetchytyke]

Does anyone know if there's a schedule for this available? I've looked here: https://settle-carlisle.co.uk/catering-retail but can't spot anything...

As with so much in life, it is on their new app 'Traxplorer Settle Carlisle'.

Then it needs to change, why do we expect taxpayers to subsidise catering for generally well off individuals? Railway catering is not a job creation policy.

As you yourself admit, your experience is on a very early morning train and that train (and the staff involved) will then go on to work busier trains later in the day.

As for whether catering should be included in first class, that is a different argument. I used to be able to persuade my employer to put me in first class in lieu of paying me subsistence for an evening meal in London. And as a leisure passenger, it is still the main reason why I choose to pay the extra to travel in first class.

And not so long ago there was a TOC that really did have a wizard catering wheeze. They provided inclusive at-seat catering in First Class but they then stripped out the theoretical catering income from the ticket price and parked that not inconsiderable sum in a separate account, immune from the Orcats revenue sharing process.

I actually don't have an issue with a TOC doing that. It might even encourage them to offer an increased catering service in first class. Only LNER and AWC have a first class catering service worthy of the name, although TPE are improving.

 

[The exile]

Then it needs to change, why do we expect taxpayers to subsidise catering for generally well off individuals? Railway catering is not a job creation policy.

The question is not whether those three staff members pay for themselves on the Newcastle - Edinburgh leg, but averaged out over the return journey. “ Pay for themselves” includes allowing for extra fare revenue because the catering is there, of course.

 

[Farang]

I am on a GWR service between Paddington and Bristol. The Customer Host has just announced a special offer: any hot drink and a chocolate biscuit £4.10. With a croissant it's £5.00. Err, no thanks. I dread to think what the normal price is.

 

[The exile]

I am on a GWR service between Paddington and Bristol. The Customer Host has just announced a special offer: any hot drink and a chocolate biscuit £4.10. With a croissant it's £5.00. Err, no thanks. I dread to think what the normal price is.

Considering the price of a cup of coffee in one of the high street chains, that’s not ridiculous any more!

 

[Farang]

Considering the price of a cup of coffee in one of the high street chains, that’s not ridiculous any more!

The tea was free thanks to my GWR Rewards

 

[weelarry]

I travelled first class with LNER in the summer and was amazed at just how much booze they gave away. As someone who works in an industry where we count every half penny, I couldn't believe the decadence - especially as I'd upgraded for about £30.

Leaving Edinburgh, the stewardess was handing out two bottles of double gins without even asking. They ran out after Newcastle but told us to wait until after York, as they were getting restocked. Sure enough, it flowed again after York!

As a customer it was great. Everyone was either sloshed or going home with a stack of miniatures in their pockets (someone at the next table even left with three quarters of a bottle of wine!), but I can't see how it's sustainable. Every other ToC is cutting back or getting rid of catering all together, but these guys are just doling it out. I don't know if that's the standard, or just the staff trying to be extra nice, but I couldn't help but think it was a bit irresponsible and that they're probably doing themselves out of a job one day, as no accountant at my company would stand for that. As a Government owned company, I am sure it'd get DOGE'd or subcontracted sooner rather than later.

 

[dk1]

I travelled first class with LNER in the summer and was amazed at just how much booze they gave away. As someone who works in an industry where we count every half penny, I couldn't believe the decadence - especially as I'd upgraded for about £30.

Leaving Edinburgh, the stewardess was handing out two bottles of double gins without even asking. They ran out after Newcastle but told us to wait until after York, as they were getting restocked. Sure enough, it flowed again after York!

As a customer it was great. Everyone was either sloshed or going home with a stack of miniatures in their pockets (someone at the next table even left with three quarters of a bottle of wine!), but I can't see how it's sustainable. Every other ToC is cutting back or getting rid of catering all together, but these guys are just doling it out. I don't know if that's the standard, or just the staff trying to be extra nice, but I couldn't help but think it was a bit irresponsible and that they're probably doing themselves out of a job one day, as no accountant at my company would stand for that. As a Government owned company, I am sure it'd get DOGE'd or subcontracted sooner rather than later.

Long may it last. I think it’s just wonderful and why LNER has such a high uptake in 1st class. Recent observations at Peterborough & York has seen almost all seats occupied on Anglo-Scottish services. A mate of mine uses it all the time and has often struggled to get a seat as never reserves one.

As a foot note, not all operators are cutting back. Greater Anglia have started a 3-6 month trial by extending their catering offer to selected services on the Norwich-Stansted Airport route.

 

[WesternLancer]

I travelled first class with LNER in the summer and was amazed at just how much booze they gave away. As someone who works in an industry where we count every half penny, I couldn't believe the decadence - especially as I'd upgraded for about £30.

Leaving Edinburgh, the stewardess was handing out two bottles of double gins without even asking. They ran out after Newcastle but told us to wait until after York, as they were getting restocked. Sure enough, it flowed again after York!

As a customer it was great. Everyone was either sloshed or going home with a stack of miniatures in their pockets (someone at the next table even left with three quarters of a bottle of wine!), but I can't see how it's sustainable. Every other ToC is cutting back or getting rid of catering all together, but these guys are just doling it out. I don't know if that's the standard, or just the staff trying to be extra nice, but I couldn't help but think it was a bit irresponsible and that they're probably doing themselves out of a job one day, as no accountant at my company would stand for that. As a Government owned company, I am sure it'd get DOGE'd or subcontracted sooner rather than later.

Sounds like a rather unnecessary level of free booze. I’d rather the money was put into decent edibles personally.

 

[GordonT]

I don't know if that's the standard, or just the staff trying to be extra nice, but I couldn't help but think it was a bit irresponsible and that they're probably doing themselves out of a job one day, as no accountant at my company would stand for that.

Perhaps the accountants might have a point in this case but occasionally accountants with little business acumen but with lots of power can amply illustrate the pitfalls of knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

 

[physics34]

Goes to show there are circles within circles of coffee quality! I think I actually prefer filter coffee to a latte on a normal day.

I must say after a recent trip to the US i quite liked filter coffee with a bit of creamer in it.... not as harsh as an americano from Nero for example. I think we should make Filter coffee more avaliable in britain again.

 

[michael8]

SWR used to franchise the catering, so presumably both SWR and the franchisee made a profit from this pre-Covid.

 

[Steddenm]

Sounds like a rather unnecessary level of free booze. I’d rather the money was put into decent edibles personally.

I hope LNER don't start providing "edibles". They have some funny side effects (although might chill a lot of passengers out!)

 

[Pumbaa]

SWR used to franchise the catering, so presumably both SWR and the franchisee made a profit from this pre-Covid.

Don’t know about post 2017, but at the end of the SWT franchise the catering operation required a net subsidy of around £4m pa. Sales covered around 40-50% of the total cost, and were decreasing year on year.

As someone else pointed out above, in the scheme of a £850m railway to operate, a £4m cost was fairly immaterial. But since Covid with Treasury wanting their pound of flesh and - regardless of merits of enhancing onboard experience for some customers, many of whom are likely to be the discretionary sort whose custom you are seeking to retain - an objectionably declining appeal, it is not surprising it was scrapped, nor at other operators.

 

[AlterEgo]

And not so long ago there was a TOC that really did have a wizard catering wheeze. They provided inclusive at-seat catering in First Class but they then stripped out the theoretical catering income from the ticket price and parked that not inconsiderable sum in a separate account, immune from the Orcats revenue sharing process. Now that's what I call creative cookery....

Sounds more like creative writing, because that is not how ORCATS or ticket revenue works.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Sounds like a rather unnecessary level of free booze. I’d rather the money was put into decent edibles personally.

That's actually how airlines do it as well, would be amazed how much it makes first class worth while in some people's minds.

 

[WesternLancer]

That's actually how airlines do it as well, would be amazed how much it makes first class worth while in some people's minds.

I’m sure you’re right.