Liverpool City Region-Bus Franchising

[markymark2000]

I can't say I've seen much of the above

We are perhaps in different groups of discussion haha. I've seen so much of it.

As I alluded to before, there is so much speculation with this (and Manchester) that at some point, some person will be right just from the law of averages (i.e. if you fire the shotgun enough times, you'll eventually hit something).

Very true. I think if Manchester taught us anything at all, it's that you should expect the unexpected in terms of awards.

There are very definite processes that must be followed, as defined in law. However, timelines can always slip (to an extent) so whilst @gka472l highlights the indicative timetable, there's no guarantee that it must be out in December. It is fair to say that we will hear something soon - we shall see who and where in due course!

100%, fully agree.

That is a downgrade itself for the 10A. At the moment it's normally every 6 minutes for the 10A

Where are you getting this information from because the 10A hasn't ran every 6 minutes since mid 2021? Arriva and Stagecoach both run 4 buses per hour on the 10A. That makes 8 buses per hour and the timetable works so there is a bus every 7-8 minutes. And on Saturdays, it works out as 7 buses per hour, making a bus every 8-9 minutes.

The drop isn't that much. And it's already explained that many other routes can pick up the slack.

 

[JasonL]

Agenda item - Metro Network Update - Bus - Modern Council

https://liverpoolcityregion-ca.moderngov.co.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=77567

I see that one of my local bus routes is going to be renumbered to 29 from 20 as I live in Earlestown.

 

[Statto]

Renumbering the 20 to 29 is daft, it's numbered 20 as it runs with the 320 St Helens to Vista Road

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TBH, it's not the only instance. IIRC, when First Group were looking to reduce their debt pile c.2013 by having a rights issue and disposing of operations, the ill-informed speculation was off the scale. I lost count the number of times that York or Livingston depots were to be sold and to whom. As I alluded to before, there is so much speculation with this (and Manchester) that at some point, some person will be right just from the law of averages (i.e. if you fire the shotgun enough times, you'll eventually hit something).

The fact is that public procurement is both an exact science and not, at the same time. There are very definite processes that must be followed, as defined in law. However, timelines can always slip (to an extent) so whilst @gka472l highlights the indicative timetable, there's no guarantee that it must be out in December. It is fair to say that we will hear something soon - we shall see who and where in due course!

Dear god no, i remember that First Group thread at the time, & the ill informed garbage being spewed out what First were going to sell was so off the charts it worse than a football transfer thread, & no one saw First selling London coming either, i can see this thread going that way for the next couple of weeks (i hope that does not happen), as everyone tries to guess who has won St Helens & Birkenhead.

 

[Northerngirl]

I see that one of my local bus routes is going to be renumbered to 29 from 20 as I live in Earlestown.

Same with the 37, but im not complaining as it will be very very useful for me if it uses the mersey ticket all route , the current 2 a day service is pointless

 

[JasonL]

Renumbering the 20 to 29 is daft, it's numbered 20 as it runs with the 320 St Helens to Vista Road

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2025 ==


Dear god no, i remember that First Group thread at the time, & the ill informed garbage being spewed out what First were going to sell was so off the charts it worse than a football transfer thread, & no one saw First selling London coming either, i can see this thread going that way for the next couple of weeks (i hope that does not happen), as everyone tries to guess who has won St Helens & Birkenhead.

It's more to do with how there is already another number 20 route in Liverpool as there cannot be 2 routes with the same number when it comes around to franchising.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Where are you getting this information from because the 10A hasn't ran every 6 minutes since mid 2021? Arriva and Stagecoach both run 4 buses per hour on the 10A. That makes 8 buses per hour and the timetable works so there is a bus every 7-8 minutes. And on Saturdays, it works out as 7 buses per hour, making a bus every 8-9 minutes.

The drop isn't that much. And it's already explained that many other routes can pick up the slack.

As I've said above in a slightly different context, I know nothing, and as well as that I'm no expert. But it seems to me that one of the potential benefits of franchising will be the elimination of wasteful competition: so to take the 10A and other services that duplicate parts of the route, if a reduced service will still provide (a) a turn up and go service and (b) sufficient seats, then reducing the PLR and so the vehicle and driver costs etc. is surely a good thing.

 

[markymark2000]

But it seems to me that one of the potential benefits of franchising will be the elimination of wasteful competition: so to take the 10A and other services that duplicate parts of the route, if a reduced service will still provide (a) a turn up and go service and (b) sufficient seats, then reducing the PLR and so the vehicle and driver costs etc. is surely a good thing.

It is probably a good thing, I agree. I was merely taking the time to say that to others, but in fewer words than you did. 2 comments saying that it's a bad change, and I really don't think it is as bad as is being expressed by others.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

but in fewer words than you did

If anyone would like to send me the gift of brevity for Christmas, I will gratefully receive it.

 

[TheSel]

If anyone would like to send me the gift of brevity for Christmas, I will gratefully receive it.

Done.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Done.

Looking at what I've just sent my colleagues, it doesn't seem to be working yet. Do I need to turn myself off and on for it to kick in?

(Mods: yes, I know. I'll stop now)

 

[Leyland Bus]

Renumbering the 20 to 29 is daft, it's numbered 20 as it runs with the 320 St Helens to Vista Road

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2025 ==


Dear god no, i remember that First Group thread at the time, & the ill informed garbage being spewed out what First were going to sell was so off the charts it worse than a football transfer thread, & no one saw First selling London coming either, i can see this thread going that way for the next couple of weeks (i hope that does not happen), as everyone tries to guess who has won St Helens & Birkenhead.

So chatter that Village Taxis have made a come back to take St Helens are wide of the mark then??

 

[gka472l]

So chatter that Village Taxis have made a come back to take St Helens are wide of the mark then??

I heard it was Fareway

 

[Leyland Bus]

My sources have failed yet again!

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I heard it was Fareway

 

[CN12 AWU]

I heard it was Fareway

I heard it was Wirral Bus and PandH taking over the Wirral network also heard Birkenhead and District were looking

 

[Fokx]

That is a downgrade itself for the 10A. At the moment it's normally every 6 minutes for the 10A

Unless it's not counting the Gilmoss ran 10A until tranche 2 which would be an odd choice

 

[Northerngirl]

It would also be a help if the rail line it ran parallel to didn't have a dismally infrequent service

 

[Statto]

As I've said above in a slightly different context, I know nothing, and as well as that I'm no expert. But it seems to me that one of the potential benefits of franchising will be the elimination of wasteful competition: so to take the 10A and other services that duplicate parts of the route, if a reduced service will still provide (a) a turn up and go service and (b) sufficient seats, then reducing the PLR and so the vehicle and driver costs etc. is surely a good thing.

I use the 10/10A quite often & Liverpool City Centre to Page Moss is the busiest part of the route, the duplication (8/9/10/10A/10B) is justified, & the 10/10A can be busy throughout the route too, the stop at the Old Swan is always busy too, reducing the frequency is bonkers & not a good thing.

Also the 10A is one of the quality bus partnership (QBP) routes, which means even timetable frequency & tickets allowed to be used on either operator

 

[gka472l]

Document found on https://liverpoolcityregion-ca.mode...ppendix 2 - Forward Plan of Key Decisions.pdf from October with expected dates of key decisions......Bus Franchising expected 12 December 2025, as to what the decision refers to isn't noted in the document from that I can see.....

 

[JasonL]

Document found on https://liverpoolcityregion-ca.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s81847/Appendix 2 - Forward Plan of Key Decisions.pdf from October with expected dates of key decisions......Bus Franchising expected 12 December 2025, as to what the decision refers to isn't noted in the document from that I can see.....


View attachment 194464

Looks like they already made a key decision but it's yet to be seen what they decided

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Looks like they already made a key decision but it's yet to be seen what they decided

Expected date of key decisions

 

[Man of Kent]

Looks like they already made a key decision but it's yet to be seen what they decided

That was for a Service Permits Consultation. The papers are freely available on the Liverpool City Region website.
The Forward Plan shows another key decision due on franchising in January.

 

[JasonL]

That was for a Service Permits Consultation. The papers are freely available on the Liverpool City Region website.
The Forward Plan shows another key decision due on franchising in January.

Maybe on the 2nd? The apparent date where there will be a public announcement for whoever wins the St. Helens and Wirral depots

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Maybe on the 2nd? The apparent date where there will be a public announcement for whoever wins the St. Helens and Wirral depots

It's a while since I've been involved in local government, but it seems to me that the dates on the Merseytravel paperwork should be for when the decision is formally made, and not for when it's announced to the public. Although I suppose it could be argued that the decision isn't finally made until the losing bidders have had their chance to challenge.

 

[JasonL]

So I seen that someome put in the Dart forum website that the body shop at Arriva's St Helens depot is closing permanently on the 31st of December. Could that be a major hint that Arriva would not continue their operations in St. Helens in September?

 

[Leedsbusman]

So I seen that someome put in the Dart forum website that the body shop at Arriva's St Helens depot is closing permanently on the 31st of December. Could that be a major hint that Arriva would not continue their operations in St. Helens in September?

Not really. The depot will be purchased by the Combined Authority purely for franchised bus operations so the paint shop will be closed regardless.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It's a while since I've been involved in local government, but it seems to me that the dates on the Merseytravel paperwork should be for when the decision is formally made, and not for when it's announced to the public. Although I suppose it could be argued that the decision isn't finally made until the losing bidders have had their chance to challenge.

You have the decision, the award notification to bidders, and then the standstill period - only after that will it be known who has been successful

 

[Leyland Bus]

Not really. The depot will be purchased by the Combined Authority purely for franchised bus operations so the paint shop will be closed regardless.

I don't see why that would happen regardless, unless you have insider knowledge?

 

[Leedsbusman]

I don't see why that would happen regardless, unless you have insider knowledge?

Clearly as it’s closing it isn’t part of the franchised operations, otherwise it would have stayed open until it was and Arriva would avoid redundancy costs by using TUPE and placing the burden on any new operator.

 

[Leyland Bus]

Clearly as it’s closing it isn’t part of the franchised operations, otherwise it would have stayed open until it was and Arriva would avoid redundancy costs by using TUPE and placing the burden on any new operator.

Not necessarily but we don't know that....

 

[Leedsbusman]

Not necessarily but we don't know that....

of course we don't, but its just as plausible as assuming Arriva has lost!