London Bridge : Train hit buffers 13/12/24

[PLY2AYS]

Nobody does (with the exception of some TOCs and their Sunday situation).

People ultimately volunteer for it. If you don't have volunteers, trains are cancelled. Pretty simple really.

Perhaps I phrased it wrong; everyone in the driving grade comes to work with the expectation that trains may be delayed and ultimately overtime paid in the result of delays.

But no one should rely on and expect to be given overtime shifts; is more what I was getting at.

 

[Horizon22]

Perhaps I phrased it wrong; everyone in the driving grade comes to work with the expectation that trains may be delayed and ultimately overtime paid in the result of delays.

But no one should rely on and expect to be given overtime shifts; is more what I was getting at.

Ah yes. Always baffles me when staff get annoyed about not getting overtime. Unfortunately too many people live beyond the means of their base salary.

 

[father_jack]

Ah yes. Always baffles me when staff get annoyed about not getting overtime. Unfortunately too many people live beyond the means of their base salary.

As a union rep it was often common that there would be vacancies in the link unfilled so obviously there would be uncovered turns so the staff could pick and choose their overtime.

Alas (or maybe not alas) though in one situation in order to "protect" their positions a collective of staff bypassed their union rep and decided to write vacant lines of work out of their roster. Erm..... no vacant lines no erm overtime. But they weren't to be told.

The management fell on the floor laughing and they actually ended up working harder to the point of being short staffed. And little or no overtime. A fella broke his leg and was off for a few months and the rest of the staff celebrated.....

 

[Wyrleybart]

As a union rep it was often common that there would be vacancies in the link unfilled so obviously there would be uncovered turns so the staff could pick and choose their overtime.

Alas (or maybe not alas) though in one situation in order to "protect" their positions a collective of staff bypassed their union rep and decided to write vacant lines of work out of their roster. Erm..... no vacant lines no erm overtime. But they weren't to be told.

The management fell on the floor laughing and they actually ended up working harder to the point of being short staffed. And little or no overtime. A fella broke his leg and was off for a few months and the rest of the staff celebrated.....

So how did that work ? In my experience up until around 10 years ago at least, Drivers LLC and Guards LLC were detached to draw up the links for their depots. These were mostly pretty much rubber stamped by the management and implemented. Although I have to say there were some instances of "failure to agree" and crew booking on with "black ink times" . Maybe this was not at all depots / companies.

 

[Falcon1200]

The only difference is that the individual driver's take home pay for the year will be slightly less.

But are Drivers currently earning overtime, both rostered (eg Sunday shifts) and ad-hoc, and their Unions, prepared to accept a reduction in take-home pay?

But the union aspiration is employ the right number of people for the job

But what is that number - How many staff should be employed to cover every possible eventuality, not just planned events such as Annual Leave but also unplanned and short-notice absence? There is a balance to be had, and sometimes there will inevitably be a choice between someone working overtime or cancelling trains. The important thing is to regulate and monitor the hours worked, and to make shift patterns as reasonable as possible in a 24/7 industry.

 

[PLY2AYS]

But are Drivers currently earning overtime, both rostered (eg Sunday shifts) and ad-hoc, and their Unions, prepared to accept a reduction in take-home pay?

It isn’t a reduction in take home pay?
It’s a reduction in overtime, which isn’t guaranteed anyway.
People living beyond their means is not a problem of the employer, but a fiscal responsibility of the worker.

But what is that number - How many staff should be employed to cover every possible eventuality, not just planned events such as Annual Leave but also unplanned and short-notice absence? There is a balance to be had, and sometimes there will inevitably be a choice between someone working overtime or cancelling trains. The important thing is to regulate and monitor the hours worked, and to make shift patterns as reasonable as possible in a 24/7 industry.

There are already drivers rostered as cover and spare to deal with those eventualities.
The way you’re phrasing it makes it sound as though people are being summoned for overtime on the day when delays and cancellations happen, which is an extreme rarity.

 

[Horizon22]

There are already drivers rostered as cover and spare to deal with those eventualities.
The way you’re phrasing it makes it sound as though people are being summoned for overtime on the day when delays and cancellations happen, which is an extreme rarity.

Indeed there are, but even that is a balance of X spares per Y of establishment. And what that ratio is depends on cost and the risk to the business. Where there are absences over the expected level (whether it’s sickness or vacancy or other reasons), then overtime becomes required. And as we all know, normally overtime is required and that isn’t independent to drivers but guards, controllers, signallers, station staff and so on all to varying degrees depending on location, company, time of year etc.

People aren’t summoned for overtime on the day, but are days in advance for a specific day where there is known to be a gap in the train crew world. In other roles yes, people are literally asked 12-24 hours advance or even on the day if they can come in or asked to extend their shifts already on duty (e.g to 12h from an 8h shift).

 

[Falcon1200]

It isn’t a reduction in take home pay?

It most certainly is! When someone has been used to receiving, every 4 weeks (as most railway staff are paid) their basic pay the extra money for their rostered Sunday shift, if that extra money stops should Sunday become part of the working week and therefore part of their basic pay; They will take home less! With the benefit of working fewer days of course.

 

[NeakPed]

Back in the dying days of BR I was a train crew roster clerk. I worked at 2 depots (promotion progression), neither of which worked Rest Days. The view of the LDCs at the time was once you started, you become reliant on it - I think privatisation has proved this
I had a reasonable working (& drinking) relationship with the local reps.
When there were gaps in the roster, and they were conscious that work given away to another depot could be lost, the help they gave was tremendous - suggesting splitting jobs, swapping rest days etc.
No one demanded 12 hours pay for it, unlike current pracrise.
The Hidden report didn't exist at the time so there was a little bit of fluidity to play with.

 

[PLY2AYS]

It most certainly is! When someone has been used to receiving, every 4 weeks (as most railway staff are paid) their basic pay the extra money for their rostered Sunday shift, if that extra money stops should Sunday become part of the working week and therefore part of their basic pay; They will take home less! With the benefit of working fewer days of course.

Sorry I had overlooked the Sunday comment there.
I take your point entirely… however I see the Sunday negotiation and Rest Day Work negotiation as very separate issues; especially as some TOCs have Sundays inside but others don’t. However all do RDW to some degree.

This, I think most can foresee as being a very pertinent sticking point if GBR are to try and harmonise Ts&Cs for their aspiration of a 7day railway.

 

[Harpo]

if GBR are to try and harmonise Ts&Cs for their aspiration of a 7day railway.

I’d be amazed if harmonising T&Cs was on any GBR agenda. They haven’t even been harmonised within many individual TOCs.

 

[paulmch]

I'm glad to see that backward rotating shifts are getting some attention in the report. Even without working every rest day under the sun a typical shift pattern can be very challenging to manage, especially at this time of year when a) lots of people are on leave, b) lots of people are ill, and c) daylight hours are very limited. As a result it's very common to be utilised when spare which can mean that your only protection from fatigue are the basic Hidden criteria, which as the report acknowledges aren't really much use.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I'm glad to see that backward rotating shifts are getting some attention in the report. Even without working every rest day under the sun a typical shift pattern can be very challenging to manage, especially at this time of year when a) lots of people are on leave, b) lots of people are ill, and c) daylight hours are very limited. As a result it's very common to be utilised when spare which can mean that your only protection from fatigue are the basic Hidden criteria, which as the report acknowledges aren't really much use.

I am not really seeing this argument. Anyone who thinks that A/R turns are a doddle works in a different industry to me. Although not on-train, my five A/R turns for W/C 4th Jan are 13-21, 13-21, 21-06 and 21-06 and still 12 hours A/R on Saturday. I am anticipating having to work 19-07 on Saturday night, so will work an hour extra on Thursday and Friday. So I will work rostered 07-19 Sunday, RD Monday, then 46 hours from 44 hours spare.

I have worked shifts for all my 47 years of service, and wouldn't have it any other way. There will always be grafters and pixxtakers, and the latter need line managers to address them, but the whole point of A/R in whatever link or roster you have is to provide cover.

 

[35B]

I am not really seeing this argument. Anyone who thinks that A/R turns are a doddle works in a different industry to me. Although not on-train, my five A/R turns for W/C 4th Jan are 13-21, 13-21, 21-06 and 21-06 and still 12 hours A/R on Saturday. I am anticipating having to work 19-07 on Saturday night, so will work an hour extra on Thursday and Friday. So I will work rostered 07-19 Sunday, RD Monday, then 46 hours from 44 hours spare.

I have worked shifts for all my 47 years of service, and wouldn't have it any other way. There will always be grafters and pixxtakers, and the latter need line managers to address them, but the whole point of A/R in whatever link or roster you have is to provide cover.

A/R?

 

[Wyrleybart]

A/R?

As Required or spare.
So I am rostered A/R Tuesday to Saturday on 1st week of the new year. 8hrs Tues-Fri and 12hrs Saturday. We currently have a vacancy and a long term sick in the team, but no leave this time of the year.

 

[PLY2AYS]

Ouch. They’re some long A/R Saturday turns!

I do sympathise… but it’s just evidence that fatigue can accrue over one week alone.
44hrs in one week (not including the Sunday or Monday) is pretty heavy going for passenger service though!

 

[357]

There will always be grafters and pixxtakers, and the latter need line managers to address them,

There's also people who come to work, do their hours, and go home. People who don't want overtime or rest day work, and equally won't move outside their spare agreements to provide cover.

 

[MotCO]

There's also people who come to work, do their hours, and go home. People who don't want overtime or rest day work, and equally won't move outside their spare agreements to provide cover.

Maybe they can't do extra hours if they're carers for a family member. It shouldn't be construed as negative if you can't do extra hours. (Apols if that was not what you meant, but that's how it appeared.)

 

[father_jack]

So how did that work ? In my experience up until around 10 years ago at least, Drivers LLC and Guards LLC were detached to draw up the links for their depots. These were mostly pretty much rubber stamped by the management and implemented. Although I have to say there were some instances of "failure to agree" and crew booking on with "black ink times" . Maybe this was not at all depots / companies.

This was station staff.

 

[Horizon22]

Ouch. They’re some long A/R Saturday turns!

I do sympathise… but it’s just evidence that fatigue can accrue over one week alone.
44hrs in one week (not including the Sunday or Monday) is pretty heavy going for passenger service though!

They don't sound like crew turns though being specific timings, so maybe control or signalling.

 

[357]

Maybe they can't do extra hours if they're carers for a family member. It shouldn't be construed as negative if you can't do extra hours. (Apols if that was not what you meant, but that's how it appeared.)

I don't see it as negative but unfortunately not all managers are the same.

I do the occasional rest day work but nothing like I did when I was younger when I was doubling my take-home most months.

 

[Horizon22]

Maybe they can't do extra hours if they're carers for a family member. It shouldn't be construed as negative if you can't do extra hours. (Apols if that was not what you meant, but that's how it appeared.)

I don't think it's a negative (nor do I think it was construed as one).

You have those who will take every RD going up until breaking Hidden and those who will never ever budge from their base roster no matter what, and everything in between. Most teams (and roster clerks) know who falls into what camp.

 

[Russel]

I don't think it's a negative (nor do I think it was construed as one).

You have those who will take every RD going up until breaking Hidden and those who will never ever budge from their base roster no matter what, and everything in between. Most teams (and roster clerks) know who falls into what camp.

That isn't exclusive to the railway, it's pretty universal.

 

[Horizon22]

That isn't exclusive to the railway, it's pretty universal.

Of course, and I don't think that many managers see it as a "negative" when someone can't do overtime, they mostly know the gig.

 

[Wyrleybart]

They don't sound like crew turns though being specific timings, so maybe control or signalling.

Yes. I am a Controller

 

[Horizon22]

Yes. I am a Controller

I gathered it was one of the two with the 8hr M-F and 12hr weekends.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I gathered it was one of the two with the 8hr M-F and 12hr weekends.

Some of my colleagues do permanent 12hrs though, whereas I only do them at weekends !!

 

[Falcon1200]

You have those who will take every RD going up until breaking Hidden and those who will never ever budge from their base roster no matter what, and everything in between. Most teams (and roster clerks) know who falls into what camp.

Yes indeed, and people who move from one group to another; I was less keen to work overtime as I got older, my basic pay increased and the demands on my finances reduced. But unless someone had marked themselves N/A (Not Available) on the roster I still had to phone them at 0500 when somebody called off for the early turn!

 

[GordonT]

You have those who will take every RD going up until breaking Hidden and those who will never ever budge from their base roster no matter what, and everything in between. Most teams (and roster clerks) know who falls into what camp.

Reminds me of a now retired bus depot ops supervisor who talked fondly of his Greedy Bs list and his Lazy Cs list.

 

[najaB]

But it seems that, in this case, the driver had done the RDW without issue, the incident occurred on one of his standard rostered days. It's a brave man who takes the extra money for RDW then admits fatigue for their normal shift. Taking the overtime money then being too tired for your normal shift looks bad no matter how supportive an employer you have, so you can see why someone would try and power through. I've done it when I was working shifts, I felt fine doing the overtime then hit a wall on the last couple of days of the following normal week. Sorting the Christmas mail isn't safety critical and so industrial quantities of Red Bull got me through it.

I agree that it is a bad look, but safety comes first - payroll can work it out later.