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The perceived hole is of course if the tap hasn't arrived by the time the ticket check is carried out. In this case it just comes up with the OK message and that's that.
This design might have made sense a few decades ago, but I'm not sure there's a good engineering justification for it remaining this way. You'd think reconciliation within seconds (or even up to a minute worst case) would be a solved problem by now and something that would be straightforward to provide; rather than relying on it all being eventually consistent.
As it happens I have a large number of dropped touches in TfGM's system which uses the vix / ticketer validators. Around 0.5% of my touches do not show up
Really quite poor. Clearly you couldn't do any sort of proper enforcement with 0.5% of taps getting piped into /dev/null - the risk of falsely accusing a fare-paying passenger would be far too high.
Really quite poor. Clearly you couldn't do any sort of proper enforcement with 0.5% of taps getting piped into /dev/null - the risk of falsely accusing a fare-paying passenger would be far too high.
Indeed. It's an enormous risk, especially for stations without ticket gates (so the majority of the national rail ones included on the TfGM trial routes). One source suggested to me that TfGM have also seen a scary spike in chargeback applications. I didn't make one myself, so I can't comment as to their likelihood of trying to defend it, but the source suggested it's very resource intensitve for them to respond in line with the rules of the card scheme. Obviously, if my repeated insistence to customer service that I had touched in hadn't ended with them backing down, I would have had no choice but to raise the chargeback before the time limit expired. A high rate of chargeback applications may also set some card issuers off into investigating if the rules of the card scheme are actually being followed or not.
Sixty seconds is far too long. A ticket check often happens on Metrolink as little as thirty seconds after the touch in took place. You'd want a very high reconciliation rate within 2-3 seconds and a hard upper limit of about 5 seconds.
You'll have a clearer idea than me of how achievable that is but I'd be surprised if the technology isn't mature enough. I fear the TfGM implementation is the problem.
Sixty seconds is far too long. A ticket check often happens on Metrolink as little as thirty seconds after the touch in took place. You'd want a very high reconciliation rate within 2-3 seconds and an hard upper limit of about 5 seconds.
I guess it depends on the route doesn't it; you could relax it at some stations
Really though, 5 seconds should be easily achievable with today's hardware and proper connectivity. I think I remember reading Monzo have to make online card payment authorisation decisions in something like a ceiling of 200 milliseconds - so clearly it's something being done successfully in fintech land for far more complicated, higher volume use-cases.
Really though, 5 seconds should be easily achievable with today's hardware and proper connectivity. I think I remember reading Monzo have to make online card payment authorisation decisions in something like a ceiling of 200 milliseconds - so clearly it's something being done successfully in fintech land for far more complicated, higher volume use-cases.
For a busy station that 33 people could be throughput in 30s. This is why 3% seems high to me, because I could watch somewhere like Liverpool Street for 1 minute and not see this.
Yes, exactly. My point when discussing percentages was that the offending rate may look obvious and high to a casual observer, but it's the total flow rate that determines the percentage, and that's just going on in the background, normally absolutely taken for granted by everyone, both watching passengers and staff members. On the Tube at busy stations that flow rate is massive.
Just to add to my anecdote concerning Walthamstow Central, when I passed back through at 19.00 I saw another tailgater, and I wasn't trying to count then! However, looking at the packed up escalator, as I went down, it was obvious that the legitimate flow rate out of the station was going to dwarf the numbers of gate avoiders.
The 3% may not be too high as it would also include those travelling with dodgy cards or doing tricks with contactless, or any other scam we haven't thought of here.
Well it seems to be 'name', 'address' 'DoB' which is then somehow verified on the tablet device and also identifies previous fare evasion. I guess anyone could give the name/address/DoB for someone else if they knew it ..
That is the problem I guess with living in a country that won't have identity cards and a legal requirement to carry at all times.
I believe it's currently an arrestable offence to refuse to provide contact details to a Railway Official ... So the legislation / ruling only might need to tweek to cover identify cards ..
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Tapped my pass on the Gate line at Pancras low level the other day to get inside the gate line .. and 3 others followed through behind me .. And the pathetic thing being a representative of GTR saw what had gone on....but did nothing
Tapped my pass on the Gate line at Pancras low level the other day to get inside the gate line .. and 3 others followed through behind me .. And the pathetic thing being a representative of GTR saw what had gone on....but did nothing
They've always had the train captains (Customer Service Agents now?) who definitely used to check tickets and passes, so there was a disincentive to potential evaders.
Sort of. The worst offenders know they can just push through barriers most of the time - while on the DLR you see them just refuse to talk to the captains who can't leave the train, so they just get off and walk away.
When you do targeted blocks, you can bring in police and even sniffer dogs, such that you can detain people for the fare issues and then do additional checks, which often results in finding drugs or weapons, or maybe that the person is wanted on warrant.
If they do more of the targeted blocks, it will perhaps put the worst offenders on edge a bit more. They don't expect any pushback at the moment because 99% of the time they don't get any.
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Presumably anyone who does this often is just using a virtual card or one that they can leisurely freeze after a failed revenue inspection to get off scot-free.
I would hope that the system can detect virtual cards linked to the same bank, and if not - why not? In the morning when cards are properly charged, there must be a way of tying it to a specific bank/account holder and not just a card number.
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I was quite surprised to have my card checked on Great Northern between Old Street and Essex Road the other day. There were about 10 of us on the train and I saw that two people seemed to be upset at the inspector's presence and jumped straight off at Essex Road.
Passenger Hosts got enhanced training to work the NCL (being shown how to use the short circuit bar and other things) some years back so can and do revenue checks there now.
What would you like the almost minimum wage GTR colleague to do? Staff have been verbally / physical assaulted (to the extent of sadly being killed) for intervening in issues, and company policy is not to do so and simply to report where they can. They don’t have any authority to restrain people regardless.
What would you like the almost minimum wage GTR colleague to do? Staff have been verbally / physical assaulted (to the extent of sadly being killed) for intervening in issues, and company policy is not to do so and simply to report where they can. They don’t have any authority to restrain people regardless.
The spectacle is pathetic though. The railway should be able to enforce its own rules like "you should pay" which will make it a more pleasant place for people (and staff) to be.
The railway should have security on hand to tackle people like this. In my experience there is a high correlation between fare evasion and other types of unpleasant behaviour on the railway.
The spectacle is pathetic though. The railway should be able to enforce its own rules like "you should pay" which will make it a more pleasant place for people (and staff) to be.
The railway should have security on hand to tackle people like this. In my experience there is a high correlation between fare evasion and other types of unpleasant behaviour on the railway.
The problem is that people don’t really like security either, it creates a tacky night-club feeling which frankly I would prefer not to have when travelling by rail. BTP are just far too thinly spread, and where they are around there’s the problem that any time an officer makes an arrest it takes that officer out of commission.
As ever this all runs somewhat deeper, and reflects a decline in the way this country functions which has certainly been going on since the 1990s, and seems to have really come out of the bottle as a consequence of the Covid response.
Literally?
Some TOCs have their own security like TSOs or Land Sheriffs, but again they're thinly spread, out of action once dealing with someone, and don't have as much power as BTP. I've seen countless people removed after shoving into a station by private security though.
Staff that might appear not to do anything should be logging all the push throughs, doubling up, and anti-social behaviour. This data will hopefully see that location get some sort of block or observation from the police if it might be related to county lines or something.
There should be more police pure and simple, if only because a lot of issues on the railway have consequences elsewhere, but we must also be willing to pay for it.
There's lots of cases on the disputes forum of this happening. Wouldn't be surprised if some of the smarter fare dodgers carry pre-prepared false details.
Then you get those who refuse to talk, claim (rightly or wrongly) they don't speak English, give a foreign address (maybe legitimate), run away, threaten staff..... Or those that do comply but either have no money to pay any fine, or the only details they have are temporary (e.g. homeless hostel or halfway house) and can't be found.
The spectacle is pathetic though. The railway should be able to enforce its own rules like "you should pay" which will make it a more pleasant place for people (and staff) to be.
The railway should have security on hand to tackle people like this. In my experience there is a high correlation between fare evasion and other types of unpleasant behaviour on the railway.
Someone would need to fund thousands more security / revenue protection staff / BTP officers then to be able to meet all eventualities. Yes it's a slippery slope but as with anything, it comes down to resources.
Someone would need to fund thousands more security / revenue protection staff / BTP officers then to be able to meet all eventualities. Yes it's a slippery slope but as with anything, it comes down to resources.
You live in a poor country with declining standards of living and only barriers to improving anything. Speaking out against it is met with barrier after barrier, much of which is cultural and political.
You live in a poor country with declining standards of living and only barriers to improving anything. Speaking out against it is met with barrier after barrier, much of which is cultural and political.
One of my colleagues described being subject to a contactless ticket inspection on a bus in Wroclaw, Poland. They were a bit puzzled by the experience so I checked on the Wroclaw public transport website. Apparently the inspectors all have real-time links to a server which can immediately tell them if the card has tapped in. The TfL system seems to have been an inspiration for others and they have developed it to be rather less vulnerable than the one we know.
Same in Tallinn, and it's done by a group of municipal police that stop the tram (often between stops), simultaneously board by all the doors, have a police van round the corner, and who won't be getting fobbed off by you giving fake details and "not having any ID". On an entirely related note, I would be amazed if fare (or in the case of residents of the city with free public transport, tap in) evasion in Tallinn is as high as it is here!
GA's Land Sheriffs are amazing. The ones who do revenue blocks seem very eager to get involved when people are trying to run/sneak past and they go above and beyond while still remaining in their rights. Some of the other roaming Land Sheriffs are excellent at de-escalation, and give very friendly and helpful customer service when dealing with respectful customers.
Wikipedia (Which is Never Wrong) says at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita that the UK has the twentieth highest GDP per capita. That's twentieth out of 197 - so just outside the top 10%. And the UK's GDP per capita appears to be around $50k: compare that to a global average of (same source) $14,217
I recently observed DLR inspectors at Woolwich Arsenal, standing right before the gate line “checking contactless cards” right before people tap out. This is one of the only stations on the network with gatelines. Is this the most efficient use of resources? I would say people are much more likely to pay at this station than some others on the network
Similarly, I was on a DLR leaving Bank recently where the crew member checked all cards as we left Bank, which seemed a little pointless given I don’t see how you could board there without having touched in (unless perhaps the intention is to catch those tailgating or gatecrashing)
Similarly, I was on a DLR leaving Bank recently where the crew member checked all cards as we left Bank, which seemed a little pointless given I don’t see how you could board there without having touched in (unless perhaps the intention is to catch those tailgating or gatecrashing)
Wikipedia (Which is Never Wrong) says at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita that the UK has the twentieth highest GDP per capita. That's twentieth out of 197 - so just outside the top 10%. And the UK's GDP per capita appears to be around $50k: compare that to a global average of (same source) $14,217
I think we all know the UK's GDP is high, but that does not disqualify it from being a poor country unless you are taking the definition absolutely literally and want to quote back GDP per capita as if it disproves anything. Take a walk around and you will notice you live in a total dump compared to many places which have a lower GDP per capita. Britain has an air of poverty and listlessness. You live in a poor country and it is getting worse. Denying it is part of the issue.
In this thread we can't even afford security guards, or more police, or, in fact, anything that might make things better. Not really feeling the wealth.
Britain has lost the will to enforce any sort of standard in anything - much less public behaviour - and there is no pride in much of what happens in public life.
Similarly, I was on a DLR leaving Bank recently where the crew member checked all cards as we left Bank, which seemed a little pointless given I don’t see how you could board there without having touched in (unless perhaps the intention is to catch those tailgating or gatecrashing)
Not to be cynical, but this is probably where they would face the least resistance in terms of checking tickets. If they want to avoid trouble, this is where I would do so to meet a quota.
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