Idea for Avanti to bring back The Clansman with the Everos

[38Cto15E]

I have been to Inverness and other places this week, and my limited brain power got working.

Now that Avanti have the 805/807 Everos, could there be a business case to bring back The Clansman, a long gone Euston to Inverness day service, serving Coventry, Wolverhampton, Crewe, Preston, Carlisle, Stirling, Perth etc?

LNER Class 8**'s are serviced at Inverness, so that would help.

In the real world I accept it will never happen, but if there was a railway version of Football Manager, it would work well.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I have been to Inverness and other places this week and my limited brain power got working.
Now that Avanti have the 805/807 Evero's, could there be a business case to bring back The Clansman, a long gone Euston to Inverness day service.
Coventry, Wolverhampton, Crewe, Preston, Carlisle, Stirling, Perth etc etc
LNER Class 8**'s are serviced at Inverness so that would help.
In the real world I accept it will never happen, but if there was a Railway version of Football Manger it would work well.

Do you really think that would be a great use of the limited 805s (13 five car sets) even if the paths were available?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Perhaps the new Lumo Stirling-Euston route will demonstrate otherwise but the traditional ‘InterCity’ view was that Anglo-Scottish day trains only made sense if they served Edinburgh or Glasgow as well as anywhere else. Hence the latter day Clansman ran via and reversed at Edinburgh (and Carstairs too).

 

[Helvellyn]

It would probably be easier for LNER to seek approval for a couple of extra 897s to free up some bi-mode Azumas and look to run a second daily Inverness service on the East Coast - say 08:00-10:00 from London and late morning/very early afternoon from Inverness.

 

[AndrewE]

It would probably be easier for LNER to seek approval for a couple of extra 897s to free up some bi-mode Azumas and look to run a second daily Inverness service on the East Coast - say 08:00-10:00 from London and late morning/very early afternoon from Inverness.

You don't think it would be more useful for the second train to offer a service along the far more densely populated WCML?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

You don't think it would be more useful for the second train to offer a service along the far more densely populated WCML?

No, because the WCML is also densely populated with trains. Which Glasgow service are you axing to make this service possible?

 

[Class15]

No, because the WCML is also densely populated with trains. Which Glasgow service are you axing to make this service possible?

What about extending an Edinburgh via Birmingham? Reversing at Edinburgh.

 

[The Planner]

Not enough 805 and 807s to do it.

 

[AndrewE]

No, because the WCML is also densely populated with trains. Which Glasgow service are you axing to make this service possible?

If Lumo can run from Stirling to Euston then that is a path which could start from Inverness. I assume they will run more than 1 train a day on the WCML, so can't any others run from Inverness?

 

[TheGrew]

I just don't see the demand. Quite honestly, if you want to do London-Inverness, flying is likely more convenient (the Wikipedia article suggests that across the London airports, half a million people a year did this in 2024). Heck, even from Manchester, I would consider flying it as well. Is there really a market from Birmingham? I would have thought a single change at York from a Cross Country service or Edinburgh via Avanti would have been quite acceptable
If you really want to do it by train, going via King's Cross or taking the sleeper are both reasonable, albeit potentially expensive options.

 

[cle]

Lumo could try, I suppose - it's enough of a novelty service as it is today (the Kings Cross) - being once a day, that competition is fair. I've often thought it could handle one more. But I think extending something else from KX is also more feasible.

I don't think WCML from Avanti is necessary, although if there was call for a service up that spine, Lumo would better cover that. I'd then speed up some of the Lanarkshire calls.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

What about extending an Edinburgh via Birmingham? Reversing at Edinburgh.

Why? Just because it’s possible? Doesn’t give it good reason to do it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2025 ==

If Lumo can run from Stirling to Euston then that is a path which could start from Inverness. I assume they will run more than 1 train a day on the WCML, so can't any others run from Inverness?

The OP quoted a bizarre route via Birmingham which isn’t the path Lumo have, and who’s to say Lumo would want to give up their paths for this rather random service?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Now that Avanti have the 805/807 Evero's, could there be a business case to bring back The Clansman, a long gone Euston to Inverness day service.
Coventry, Wolverhampton, Crewe, Preston, Carlisle, Stirling, Perth etc etc

Mechanically possible, yes. At all realistic, no.
And no call at Birmingham, Warrington, and Wigan?
If you'd have to cut an existing service to fit that in, the lost stops would be a pain.

 

[JohnMcL7]

When I've travelled on the LNER Inverness to London service it's been fairly quiet between Inverness and Edinburgh but much busier at Edinburgh, I can't see there being a justification for another similar service.

 

[JonathanH]

An out and back Euston to Inverness service is just about impossible within the day. It would spend 10 hours north of Carlisle, so it would have a completely inhospitable departure and arrival time in London.

The Lumo service to Stirling will make connections to Inverness a little easier from the west side of the country, but it isn't as if changing in Glasgow is a desperate hardship for most travellers at the moment, and it breaks up the journey.

What about extending an Edinburgh via Birmingham? Reversing at Edinburgh.

Reducing capacity on these services wouldn't be sensible, and the gap in the timetable would need to be managed, by having a southbound service meet a northbound service. Already you are now dedicating two units to this service, for something which is mainly a Scottish domestic service.

 

[AndrewE]

If you really want to do it by train, going via King's Cross or taking the sleeper are both reasonable, albeit potentially expensive options.

Absolutely not - if you live N of Brum on the west side of the country, or connect in from the SW or Wales...

I just don't see the demand. Quite honestly, if you want to do London-Inverness, flying is likely more convenient (the Wikipedia article suggests that across the London airports, half a million people a year did this in 2024). Heck, even from Manchester, I would consider flying it as well.

You also don't see that the WCML is not there just for the people who want to travel from or to London, or who don't care about the carbon footprint of internal flights - which makes them almost inexusable in many people's minds.

Is there really a market from Birmingham? I would have thought a single change at York from a Cross Country service or Edinburgh via Avanti would have been quite acceptable

You obviously don't know what XC are like between Birmingham and York (so definitely not "quite acceptable") or how busy the Birmingham to Scotland trains are already. Via York is a lot further round, and a through train from the WCML not having to change at Edinburgh would be quicker and a lot more attractive.

 

[JonathanH]

a through train from the WCML not having to change at Edinburgh would be quicker and a lot more attractive

You could say the same thing about connections to the West Highland Line. At some point the capacity needed between Birmingham and Edinburgh isn't the same as that needed between Edinburgh and Inverness.

The Highland Chieftain runs in pretty much the prime slot between Inverness and Edinburgh, leaving around 8am, and arriving around 8pm. Clearly another train can't run in those same times, so you then have to consider when it would run. From a practical perspective it needs to replace one of the existing workings on the Highland Main Line.

 

[stevieinselby]

You don't think it would be more useful for the second train to offer a service along the far more densely populated WCML?

Running Inverness to London via the WCML would almost certainly necessitate missing out two of the biggest WCML destinations, namely Glasgow and Manchester. And if you do serve Birmingham, you're hobbling the service for passengers to/from London with the journey time.

ECML services beyond the central belt can be managed by simply extending services that terminate at Edinburgh – sure, you need to balance those workings to ensure you have diagrams sorted out so that you're not missing out the southbound working from Edinburgh because the train that would be used for it has continued north, but in the grand scheme of things that's a relatively small issue – extending WCML services means adding an extra train from Euston to Motherwell, which means using an additional path and stock.

 

[JonathanH]

extending WCML services means adding an extra train from Euston to Motherwell, which means using an additional path and stock.

In theory you could go into Glasgow Central via Cumbernauld and Carmyle to reverse, then go out in a normal WCML path, but it would incur a time penalty, both for internal Scottish journeys, and for the through journey.

The ECML services have a critical mass for balancing workings, with the equivalent of one set allocated north of Edinburgh and the others in marginal time. I don't know how the WCML services could get to that level, or be justified.

Lumo operating to Stirling makes a lot of the journeys being discussed easier in any case.

 

[tbtc]

The Highland Chieftain runs in pretty much the prime slot between Inverness and Edinburgh, leaving around 8am, and arriving around 8pm. Clearly another train can't run in those same times, so you then have to consider when it would run. From a practical perspective it needs to replace one of the existing workings on the Highland Main Line.

Agreed

The Chieftain works well because historically there was an HST that didn't come off Craigentinny until late morning and another diagram that finished there just after six, so it was relatively marginal use of resources to start it at Inverness first thing and have a second HST finish there each evening (i.e. no new trains needed, "just" the fuel/ staff/ accommodation)

It's still fairly inefficient, with LNER (and predecessors) having to pay staff to sit on the cushions of a Scotrail service from Aberdeen to Inverness each afternoon, and stay in digs there, just so there's crew to work the southbound service (and presumably the same applies in the other direction?), but it kind of works

An Inverness service obviously serves Edinburgh and Newcastle on its way to Kings Cross

A Euston service though... That would have to find a slot on the single track HML (at the opportunity cost of an Inverness - Edinburgh/ Glasgow train) and down the WCML (at the opportunity cost of an Edinburgh/ Glasgow - Manchester/ Birmingham / London train, given how carefully everything is pathed over Beattock and Shap)

It's already going to be slower for London passengers than the Kings Cross service, but do you delay it further by diverting into Manchester/ Birmingham, to give it a unique selling point?

And what times are you looking for? You'd struggle to get a morning service northbound and afternoon service southbound without a long break in Inverness, but then it'll already be a long day even with a five minute turnaround in the Highlands.

So do you have it overnight in Inverness, in which case it runs relatively close to the existing Cheiftan (plus the overnight accommodation, plus staff on the cushions to avoid the mandatory break between shifts)?

The whole thing feels like Solution In Need Of A Problem territory. The only reason Lumo are doing Stirling is a low cost way of undercutting existing services (see also Grand Central to Sunderland/ Bradford). Take that away and what are you left with?

(Also feels significant that LNER don't even run the additional Stirling extension of a Waverly service that VTEC introduced)

 

[pokemonsuper9]

It's still fairly inefficient, with LNER (and predecessors) having to pay staff to sit on the cushions of a Scotrail service from Aberdeen to Inverness each afternoon, and stay in digs there, just so there's crew to work the southbound service (and presumably the same applies in the other direction?), but it kind of works

Oh I thought the staff that worked it up from Edinburgh stayed in Inverness and took it back down the next morning.

 

[Helvellyn]

You don't think it would be more useful for the second train to offer a service along the far more densely populated WCML?

No, because Avanti don't have the stock. Even if they got something they'd have the expense of training up crew for one service a day. InterCity tried various ways to make it work and couldn't against ECML Chieftain.

 

[hexagon789]

Oh I thought the staff that worked it up from Edinburgh stayed in Inverness and took it back down the next morning.

Yes, they do that now, but until fairly recently the arrangement was as @tbtc said.

Newcastle drivers work it to Inverness, overnight there and return to Newcastle with it the following morning now.

As part of the changes, Newcastle no longer sign Aberdeen either.

 

[JonathanH]

Once Scotrail and Lumo are both running 222s, perhaps they could just couple a Scotrail one from Inverness on the back of a Lumo service at Stirling and run it through to Crewe to detach. However, I don't see how that maintains the internal Scottish connections that are more important to most passengers.

 

[TheGrew]

Absolutely not - if you live N of Brum on the west side of the country, or connect in from the SW or Wales...

You also don't see that the WCML is not there just for the people who want to travel from or to London, or who don't care about the carbon footprint of internal flights - which makes them almost inexusable in many people's minds.


You obviously don't know what XC are like between Birmingham and York (so definitely not "quite acceptable") or how busy the Birmingham to Scotland trains are already. Via York is a lot further round, and a through train from the WCML not having to change at Edinburgh would be quicker and a lot more attractive.

The Highland Sleeper stops at Crewe, which has pretty good connections from Wales (both North and South!). The South West - Highland market is going to be very small; frankly, they are both areas of comparatively low population density with little substantial business demand.
Whilst I appreciate the damage internal flights can cause, where people are travelling for business, the time impact of taking the train can be far too great, let alone the cost (which unfortunately is often cheaper for flying); this is mitigated somewhat by the sleeper, which is a comparatively time-efficient way to travel, but expensive.
I also appreciate that XC provides a pretty poor service, which is why, despite living near Manchester and going to Southampton relatively often, I would always choose to go via London rather than Birmingham. I have also previously flown this route and may do so again with Loganair.

 

[ShadowKnight]

The most plausible would be to extend one of the Stirling Lumos to Inverness

 

[Helvellyn]

The several suggestions for Lumo to extend a service to Inverness overlook that as an Open Access operator they would firstly want to do that because they see it as worthwhile, secondly that they would pass the necessary abstraction tests, and thirdly that they'd be limited to the WCML stops already approved for any intermediate traffic flows.

 

[The Pelican]

It seems that stopping at one of the two central belt cities is crucial to making the economics of most London-North Scotland services work- could a train from London run via Easterhouse, reverse at Queen Street Low Level, and north via Alexandra Parade? Alternatively, could an extremely small 2 platform revived St Enoch deal with London to North of Stirling trains?

 

[Clansman]

When I've travelled on the LNER Inverness to London service it's been fairly quiet between Inverness and Edinburgh but much busier at Edinburgh, I can't see there being a justification for another similar service.

On the contrary, LNER internally are looking at options to increase to a second service in the future.

 

[JonathanH]

The most plausible would be to extend one of the Stirling Lumos to Inverness

Passengers can just change at Stirling. They could even offer through tickets. This would indicate whether there is any potential for growth in the market.

Some of the connections aren't bad

Inverness 0535
Stirling 0822
Stirling 0848
Euston 1458

Euston 1319
Stirling 1914
Stirling 1937
Inverness 2242

It seems that stopping at one of the two central belt cities is crucial to making the economics of most London-North Scotland services work- could a train from London run via Easterhouse, reverse at Queen Street Low Level, and north via Alexandra Parade? Alternatively, could an extremely small 2 platform revived St Enoch deal with London to North of Stirling trains?

It doesn't really need to go to Queen Street. Glasgow Central to Stirling can be done via Carmyle, which is a more efficient solution.