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Maximising East West rail

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William3000

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That's not correct. As pointed out above, Reading is nearer to Birmingham than Cambridge. Also Oxford (67 miles via Solihull or 72 miles via Coventry) is nearer than Bedford (83 miles).

The populations are very different.

Reading+Oxford 375k
Cambridge+Bedford 250k

Furthermore, comparing entrances and exits:

Reading+Oxford 20.3m
Cambridge+Bedford 13.3m

Bedford-Birmingham is a journey that can already be made now. We can see the numbers:

Bedford-Birmingham New Street 2961
Bedford-Birmingham International 243
Bedford-Coventry 786
Total 3990

And even looking at the pre-pandemic numbers we have

Bedford-Birmingham New Street 5431
Bedford-Birmingham International 712
Bedford-Coventry 1865
Total 8008

Your calculation relies on Bedford contributing more than 70k journeys, clearly that's absurd.

I think we can disregard the contribution from Bedford here. When East West Rail opens the new destinations for 70k journeys to and from Bedford will be Oxford and Cambridge, not Coventry and Birmingham.

I take your point with regard to Cambridge-Coventry/Birmingham International. Using the Reading comparison, adding Coventry and Birmingham International to my Cambridge-Birmingham New Street 25k estimate would get the figure up to about 35k.

It is still a small number.
Worth noting that the population of Greater Cambridge is currently 312,000 and forecast to increase to 500,000 in the next 20 years. And Cambridge station is getting on for double the number of passengers of Oxford despite fewer long distance services - 11 million versus 6.7 million. And Cambridge South is due to open next year next to the Cambridge Biomedical Campus which is forecast to grow to 40,000 plus jobs alone within 15 years!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

That's why I also quoted the pre-pandemic numbers. EWR did the same in the non-statutory consultation.


However it is measured, Reading is nearer than Cambridge and Oxford is nearer than Bedford. 65 and 57 are not similar, one is 14% further than the other.


They are enough to say that a direct journey won't send the numbers leaping from 8k to 70k.


What matters is that employees and businesses around Oxford and Cambridge have access to both universities.


This especially apples to couples, EWR will mean that they don't both have to work in one or the other, and don't have to live in either.
Cambridge is about 105 miles by rail to Bedford without EWR - with EWR it reduces to about 35 miles

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

That's why I also quoted the pre-pandemic numbers. EWR did the same in the non-statutory consultation.


However it is measured, Reading is nearer than Cambridge and Oxford is nearer than Bedford. 65 and 57 are not similar, one is 14% further than the other.


They are enough to say that a direct journey won't send the numbers leaping from 8k to 70k.


What matters is that employees and businesses around Oxford and Cambridge have access to both universities.


This especially apples to couples, EWR will mean that they don't both have to work in one or the other, and don't have to live in either.
Cambridge is about 105 miles by rail to Bedford without EWR - with EWR it reduces to about 35 miles
"As the crow flies" is fine for crows.

I judge the proximity of places by road and rail by the journey time and the cost for the journey.

However fast EWR trains are, I don't think the tickets will be cheap.
but the crow flying between say St Neots and Bedford IS relevant - it’s about the same journey time by rail from St Neots to York as it is from St Neots to Bedford. That’s because despite them being just 12 miles apart - one has to change at London St Pancras International to do the journey - which obvious virtually nobody does
 
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Magdalia

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Worth noting that the population of Greater Cambridge is currently 312,000 and forecast to increase to 500,000 in the next 20 years.
The combined populations of the existing Cambridge City and South Cambridgeshire District Councils was 308k in the 2021 census. Both councils have expressed a preference for a Greater Cambridge unitary authority consisting of just the two of them. The 500k figure is the guideline population for unitary authorities in the devolution proposals, so, for now, it suits them to claim that they are going to get that big.

And Cambridge station is getting on for double the number of passengers of Oxford despite fewer long distance services - 11 million versus 6.7 million.

South Cambridgeshire has 8 stations: Waterbeach, Cambridge North, Shelford, Whittlesford Parkway, Foxton, Shepreth, Meldreth and Ashwell and Morden. Almost 10% of journeys to/from Cambridge are from/to the South Cambridgeshire stations. But Ely is bigger than all of them combined.

Cambourne is also in South Cambridgeshire.
 

zwk500

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Providing a simple one-change, London-avoiding service between Cambridge (eventually), Bedford and Milton Keynes towards Bristol and South Wales is surely worth considering, especially if it is simple to arrange as per my proposal?
I agree, although whether it can fit in with the potential Bristol-Oxford service GWR trialled and are apparently looking to make hourly is another question. But then if EWR terminates at Didcot, maybe the Bristol-Oxfords can go round the west curve...
 

Magdalia

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Providing a simple one-change, London-avoiding service between Cambridge (eventually), Bedford and Milton Keynes towards Bristol and South Wales is surely worth considering, especially if it is simple to arrange as per my proposal?
This is my reasoning for supporting an EWR extension to Didcot or Swindon too.

I agree, although whether it can fit in with the potential Bristol-Oxford service GWR trialled and are apparently looking to make hourly is another question. But then if EWR terminates at Didcot, maybe the Bristol-Oxfords can go round the west curve...
But EWR extending to Didcot or Swindon would not be necessary if there was an Oxford-Bristol service, and I think that this is a better solution.

The elephant in the room here is Oxford-Swindon. Populations of 184k and 171k, only about 30 miles apart, existing railway, but no direct trains, and an annual one way passenger flow of only 30k. It is an open goal but the railway seems to be incapable of finding the net.
 

richieb1971

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Banger or no banger. More rail transfers the less impact on Bedford. It's strange that folk in here keep mentioning Luton, Milton Keynes and Cambridge but nobody actually mentions Wixams, Kempston and Bedford which are the 3 closest places.

Bedford is the epicenter. Bedford. The largest impact will be on Bedford from investment jobs and infrastructure will completely change. It's already starting the roads are getting narrower again, new station, new hotels, roads and facilities. It will be chaotic.

So the last thing Bedford wants is a continuous ongoing traffic problem, which already exists. The social contract is that the government delivers great infrastructure.
 

edwin_m

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Banger or no banger. More rail transfers the less impact on Bedford. It's strange that folk in here keep mentioning Luton, Milton Keynes and Cambridge but nobody actually mentions Wixams, Kempston and Bedford which are the 3 closest places.

Bedford is the epicenter. Bedford. The largest impact will be on Bedford from investment jobs and infrastructure will completely change. It's already starting the roads are getting narrower again, new station, new hotels, roads and facilities. It will be chaotic.

So the last thing Bedford wants is a continuous ongoing traffic problem, which already exists. The social contract is that the government delivers great infrastructure.
Not quite sure what you are proposing here but I will assume that you are suggesting park employees will be living in Wixams, Kempston and Bedford.

If so, the stations serving Wixams and Kempston will also be the the nearest ones to Universal, so rail is not an option for any employees living there.

For Bedford, are employees going to be driving to the station and paying for parking then getting a train to Wixams? If they have access to a car they will drive to Universal instead, unless they impose some really swingeing charges for staff parking, and if they drive directly they probably cause less traffic congestion than if they drove to Bedford station. Any employee in Bedford without a car and not in easy walking distance of the station might have an alternative bus direct to Universal which would be more convenient than changing onto a train.

So rail is irrelevant to almost all of these people.
 

richieb1971

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Not quite sure what you are proposing here but I will assume that you are suggesting park employees will be living in Wixams, Kempston and Bedford.

If so, the stations serving Wixams and Kempston will also be the the nearest ones to Universal, so rail is not an option for any employees living there.

For Bedford, are employees going to be driving to the station and paying for parking then getting a train to Wixams? If they have access to a car they will drive to Universal instead, unless they impose some really swingeing charges for staff parking, and if they drive directly they probably cause less traffic congestion than if they drove to Bedford station. Any employee in Bedford without a car and not in easy walking distance of the station might have an alternative bus direct to Universal which would be more convenient than changing onto a train.

So rail is irrelevant to almost all of these people.

The framework that was suggested as early as Route E on EWR was that Bedford MUST be on the EWR network. In all honesty that wasn't something Bedfordians wanted, it was what government and investors wanted. So straight away you have a model which is against the local people.

Then Universal Great Britain was announced and this got a lot of traction with the people. It was heavily supported with the caveat that disruption/noise pollution and traffic congestion was the main concern.

Whether we like it or not, 8000 employees of the park will be moving in and around our town whether we like it or not. That's an awful lot more activity than we are used to.

So lets say the end game is that you want Universal/EWR and all the bells and whistles. Which from what I am seeing there is preparation works in Bedford right now completely overhauling many streets. We have many streets getting overhauled right now including Greyfriars (bus station area), Bromham Road near the high street area and St Pauls Church area are all being repaved for the new beginnings. Even under EWR plans some of Ashburnham road is penciled in to be demolished as well as the area north of Bedford to lay 2 extra tracks.

This doesn't send me signals that Wixams and Universal studios is where the boundary ends ( I know its 2 projects). Bedford is being prepped to be a UK super power, a tourist attraction on the level of Orlando or Las Vegas. There is already chat groups around BnB establishments in the town, people trying to buy up land for caravan parks and temporary accommodations. The investors are here already. Those hotels that Universal are building are not going to house 22000 a day, there is only capacity for around 1000 or 2000 in the plans. Folk that are coming to Universal will be visiting Harry potter world, London and all manner of attractions local or easily accessible.

Bedford will see things like Factory outlets for fashion and a restaurant park which will shift almost everything to the area of the park and many local residents will go there on a regular basis.

All the land in Kempston retail park is now been taken up by new retail outlets and restaurants, I think brand new toilets are being installed.

I believe a lot of those Universal visitors will be coming to Bedford because I believe the endgame is to make Bedford an extension of the park. Bedford with its nice river gives off that British vibe that tourists will look for and investors know of this. Its happening.

So yes, 8000 employees might come from further a field than Bedford, but at the same time Bedford is a big part of this project. The government knows this project will have the eyes of the world on it and they don't want anyone to see Prebend Street as it stands today which sits between St Johns and Midland station.

Locals want the park to be as un disruptive as possible. For me, the railway plays the biggest part in that. If the railway fails, most of everything else fails. The links between Bedford and the park whether it be road or rail need to be extremely good. Right now, you have 2 ways to access Bedford from the park, one is reasonable through the new bypass to the A6 and the other is quite terrible as it stands today through Ampthill road. Both are already congested at rush hour.

When you ask EWR or anyone questions about Bedford the answer is "Everything will done to mitigate the issue you have concerns with".

We are not talking about a project where Universal studios is in a bubble. I expect Bedford footfall to increase by 1000's of %. The UK government doesn't want a Universal park visitor to jump on a flight, jump on a train, visit the park and leave again. They want the bigger piece of the business. Do I see Bedford getting more traffic? Yeah, I Do. Bedford hasn't seen this kind of investment before, its new, and its not because people asked for it, its because there is a new guy in town.

I look at this project with different eyes. One from living where it is, one from what I see as current concerns, potential concerns, I see it from the eyes of if Universal Studios Great Britain will be classified as the weakest or strongest of the worldwide parks, I see it from the perspective of if visitors will like its surroundings. If they will enjoy the ease of transportation links.

I'm a rail enthusiast as well, I want the best railway and infrastructure to make this project a great success. I want to be proud of it as well. In the plans so far, I'm not seeing passionate plans, i'm seeing it will do plans.
 

dalecn

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As someone lives in Sheffield while i dont think a direct stop at Wixams is a good idea for the MML trains down from Sheffield and Nottingham i do think the way the trains are ran needs to be changed. Currently for me it would be either Sheffield to London then back out to Wixams or Sheffield to Leicester to Kettering to Bedford to Wixams. Which to me seems like a terribly conveluted route.

Especially with East West Rail and Bedford set to become a bigger interchange surley the answer is to add a stop at Bedford to allow for better connections from South Yorkshire and East Midlands to that part of the country and im hoping that the time added to journey would be minimal due to new electric trains running south of Leicester.
 

richieb1971

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Especially with East West Rail and Bedford set to become a bigger interchange surely the answer is to add a stop at Bedford to allow for better connections from South Yorkshire and East Midlands to that part of the country and I'm hoping that the time added to journey would be minimal due to new electric trains running south of Leicester.
Bedford needs an up fast platform. All trains from the north currently have to switch from the fast tracks to the slow tracks which have Thameslink terminated trains sitting in most of the free platforms a lot of the time. Just checking google maps last night, the map of the station shows 2 Thameslink terminators in P1 and P2 leaving only P3 available for through trains.

Wixams is likely going to have 4 platforms straight out of the box.

I have already suggested that Bedford train station should expand southwards where there is ample room for a up fast platform, it will just be offset from the down fast platform by 100-200 meters. All the plans I've heard and seen thus far have been around cramping everything in as tightly as possible. Expanding the station to the south makes more sense to me as its already network rail land and there is ample room for it. On the west side of the track there is a steam shed not used since the 1960's which could be used as some sort of station hub from the west side.

This is the location of the station - Yellow line shows the up fast doesn't have a platform -

1766159306591.png

And this is south of Ford end road bridge where I believe the station should expand into -

1766159378470.png
 

Haywain

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The framework that was suggested as early as Route E on EWR was that Bedford MUST be on the EWR network. In all honesty that wasn't something Bedfordians wanted, it was what government and investors wanted. So straight away you have a model which is against the local people.
The idea that East West Rail would ever have avoided Bedford is just ridiculous, and I do not believe that the population of Bedford would have been that blinkered to have supported such an idea. Universal is going to bring massive investment to the area and your negativity does not reflect what I am hearing from people living in Bedford, Wixams and Luton.
 

richieb1971

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I'm good with all those options. Although the retail park Is a bit close to Wixams. I did want this years ago for EWR but it is always overlooked due to it's supposed size. It currently does more business than Bedford town center. Due to excellent parking and access and has expanded quite a bit in the last 18 months. It is a favourite location locally. A bridge connecting the retail park to Kempston is way overdue as you need to navigate about 1.5 miles round the track when it's a stone throw away.
 

William3000

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If London St Pancras can have 6 trains per hour, with low level having Thameslink trains - there would v two to Corby, two to Nottingham and two to Sheffield, I think the following service pattern makes sense. This would be couple with an additional four Thameslink to Bedford and two to Luton.

Sheffield fast:
Sheffield, Chesterfield, Derby, Leicester, London St Pancras International

Sheffield semi-fast:
Sheffield, Chesterfield, Derby, Long Eaton, East Midlands Parkway, Loughborough, Leicester, Kettering, Bedford, London St Pancras International

Nottingham Fast
Nottingham
Loughborough, Leicester, Market Harborough, Bedford, London St Pancras International

Nottingham semi-fast
Nottingham, Beeston, East Midlands Parkway, Loughborough, Leicester, Market Harborough, Kettering, Bedford, Luton Airport Parkway, London St Pancras International

Corby semi fasts x2
Corby, Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford, Luton, Luton Airport Parkway, London St Pancras International


Bedford (Thameslink x 4 per hour)
Bedford, Wixams, etc…
 
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