UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[Minilad]

Just for a bit of a real world example. My current cost to insure my 73 plate Renault Megane E-Tech is £398.83. My 64 plate BMW Z4 costs £373.11. Not exactly the doomsday scenario many paint EV insurance to be. Admittedly that's just my experience and someone with a different profile might have different results.

 

[telstarbox]

My insurance for an EV as an effective new driver (albeit in my 30s) is sub £500.

 

[Harpers Tate]

£318.98 just renewed. Less than last year.

 

[jmh59]

£494 back in June. The renewal this year was almost £700 and some big names (LV) would not even quote. But a call to the current insurer dropped it back to the previous year. This is for an estimated 10k miles per year with 2k business but I only do 5k a year and 500 miles business so will rearrange next renewal.

 

[E27007]

I would say tax evasion is more serious than fibbing to an insurance company. I don't fancy HMRC knocking on my door.

I would say the opposite, fibbing to a vehicle insurance company or HMRI, if detected , ie an accident insurance claim, then the vehicle insurance may be null and void, potentially serious, and you won't get a second chance.
If caught out by HMRI then you will be allowed a second chance to change your ways, pay what you owe.
A recent conversation with a fleet manager, he said under-declare your annual mileage to your vehicle insurer, then after you exceed the declared mileage your insurance drops to minimum cover, (third-party only), not worth the risk!

 

[Mawkie]

I would say the opposite, fibbing to a vehicle insurance company or HMRI, if detected , ie an accident insurance claim, then the vehicle insurance may be null and void, potentially serious, and you won't get a second chance.
If caught out by HMRI then you will be allowed a second chance to change your ways, pay what you owe.

Oh yes, that's a good point. Best not to lie to anyone then!

(BTW, isn't HMRI the Railway Inspectorate? I think you've been hanging around the Rail Forums for too long )

 

[Snow1964]

Government has added 4 vehicles to £3750 full grant

Drivers can save £3,750 off 4 more electric vehicles (EVs) as the top band of the Electric Car Grant (ECG) expands again today (3 December 2025) to include the:

• MINI Countryman
• Renault 4
• Renault 5
• Renault Alpine A290

The expansion doubles the number of EVs eligible for the maximum reduction under the grant, meaning drivers can now get £3,750 off 8 models across some of the most popular brands.

Four more EV models qualify for £3,750 discount under Electric Car Grant as government pumps an extra £1.5 billion into the switch to electric

Government doubles the number of models available for the top ECG discount.

www.gov.uk

 

[jon0844]

The Renault 5 was already popular. That's quite a discount!

(And good news for second hand values, although those who paid the full price might be a little upset as the discount will hit values).

 

[Snow1964]

November SMMT (Society of motor manufacturers and traders) new car sales figures are out

1.6% lower overall sales than Nov 2024 at 151,154 cars

39,965 (26.4%) are Battery electric vehicle BEV (+3.6% on Nov24)
18,005 (11.9%) plug in hybrid PHEV (+14.8%)
19,836 (13.1%) hybrid (+1.3%)
66,180 (43.8%) petrol (down 5.9%)
7,168 (4.7%) diesel (down 24%)

So fossil fuel continues to fall (and remains under half overall), but electric vehicles continue to rise.

UK New Car Registration Data - Latest Figures & Statistics | SMMT

Discover the latest UK car registration data: new car registration statistics, the number of cars in the UK, and more.

www.smmt.co.uk

 

[jon0844]

Just as I predicted, Ford has brought back the Fiesta (well, will be doing so in 2028) and in EV form.

What I couldn't predict was that it will be built on a Renault platform shared with the Renault 5, although that can't be a bad thing given how great that car is.

Smart move on Ford's part as they realise the need for smaller cars in certain key markets.

 

[E27007]

EU revises legislation for the 2030 deadline for phasing out of IC cars.

Brussels announces a change of deadline for end of sales of new IC cars

The 2030 deadline is not realistic in the opinion of the EU car manufacturers, facing with many issues of cost and financing the transition from IC to ZEV , the Eu car manufacturers have successfully lobbied Brussels for a postponement of the IC deadline, the new deadline proposed by Brussels is believed to be 2040.
As an important market for German cars, will the UK will be lobbied to relax the deadline too?

 

[thejuggler]

November SMMT (Society of motor manufacturers and traders) new car sales figures are out

1.6% lower overall sales than Nov 2024 at 151,154 cars

39,965 (26.4%) are Battery electric vehicle BEV (+3.6% on Nov24)
18,005 (11.9%) plug in hybrid PHEV (+14.8%)
19,836 (13.1%) hybrid (+1.3%)
66,180 (43.8%) petrol (down 5.9%)
7,168 (4.7%) diesel (down 24%)

So fossil fuel continues to fall (and remains under half overall), but electric vehicles continue to rise.

UK New Car Registration Data - Latest Figures & Statistics | SMMT

Discover the latest UK car registration data: new car registration statistics, the number of cars in the UK, and more.

www.smmt.co.uk

Fossil fuel vehicles are still 74% of sales, which is far from under half. They may have battery tech, but a hybrid which never runs purely on EV can ever been seen as an EV.

As it is winter our Yaris Hybrid is now using the petrol engine for most of the time the vehicle is moving.

 

[Mawkie]

EU revises legislation for the 2030 deadline for phasing out of IC cars.

Brussels announces a change of deadline for end of sales of new IC cars

The 2030 deadline is not realistic in the opinion of the EU car manufacturers, facing with many issues of cost and financing the transition from IC to ZEV , the Eu car manufacturers have successfully lobbied Brussels for a postponement of the IC deadline, the new deadline proposed by Brussels is believed to be 2040.
As an important market for German cars, will the UK will be lobbied to relax the deadline too?

Honestly, this sounds like a last gasp from the traditional vehicle manufacturers. The traditional business model is disappearing before their eyes. Tesla has shown that shiny dealerships are not necessary, hard-sell car salespeople are unneeded, expensive lengthy service contracts are out the window. BMW even tried to hook people into a monthly subscription model for heated seats, with hardware that was already fitted to the car from the factory - that didn't work out well.

Once people have a better understanding of battery electric vehicles, there is no going back. Anecdotally, not a single one of the "salary sacrificers" at my work have said they're interested in going back to a combustion engined vehicle.

So, the EU could mandate ICEs being produced until 2050+, but if the market isn't there, the manufacturers simply won't make them.

 

[notverydeep]

If I was in the position of the European automotive industry, I am not sure I would be lobbying to give Chinese competitors another 10 years of head start…

 

[Snow1964]

Once people have a better understanding of battery electric vehicles, there is no going back. Anecdotally, not a single one of the "salary sacrificers" at my work have said they're interested in going back to a combustion engined vehicle.

Yes, my experience of those who have changed to electric, won't go back.

Admittedly those that I know tend to have a drive, have installed a home charger and are paying 6.5-7p per Kw/h for overnight electricity, so fuel costs tend to be nearer £10 per month than £100-150 per month

 

[JamesT]

Honestly, this sounds like a last gasp from the traditional vehicle manufacturers. The traditional business model is disappearing before their eyes. Tesla has shown that shiny dealerships are not necessary, hard-sell car salespeople are unneeded, expensive lengthy service contracts are out the window. BMW even tried to hook people into a monthly subscription model for heated seats, with hardware that was already fitted to the car from the factory - that didn't work out well.

Once people have a better understanding of battery electric vehicles, there is no going back. Anecdotally, not a single one of the "salary sacrificers" at my work have said they're interested in going back to a combustion engined vehicle.

So, the EU could mandate ICEs being produced until 2050+, but if the market isn't there, the manufacturers simply won't make them.

If EVs have so many advantages and ICE car makers are doomed, why are the targets and the penalties needed? Let the market decide.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If EVs have so many advantages and ICE car makers are doomed, why are the targets and the penalties needed? Let the market decide.

I think that's actually why they've realised they can do it - people are going to switch anyway.

It's a bit like Manchester's ULEZ abandonment. Sure, it stinks there a bit now, but over time the noncompliant diesels will rot away and disappear (noncompliant petrols are already tiny in number) and we'll be left with a ULEZ everywhere by default apart from the odd classic cherished vehicle. ULEZs are a 2010s-2020s thing, there just won't be enough highly polluting vehicles left by the late 2030s to need it. Don't get me wrong, I love how clean central London is now, but it won't be long until everywhere catches up simply out of practicality of the majority of the vehicles left on the road being Euro 6, and it won't be that much longer before most are EV and petrol/diesel starts becoming a specialist thing for enthusiasts only.

 

[Mawkie]

If EVs have so many advantages and ICE car makers are doomed, why are the targets and the penalties needed? Let the market decide.

I didn't say the traditional car manufacturers were doomed. My point is they are reluctant to change - most of them initially thought they could just throw a battery into their existing cars, hope for the best and then wonder why they weren't selling. They didn't want to surrender their servicing income stream, that's understandable from their point of view, but consumers are more savvy these days.

As I'm sure you know, the incentives are offered to increase the speed of the uptake of BEVs, and the incentives are linked to reducing carbon emissions and the targets agreed by various nations over the previous decades.

If I understand the new rules properly, I think the EU have now stated that 90% of new cars and vans must be electric vehicles instead of 100% by 2035? So there may still be a few cars offered running on dino-juice. Whether anyone will want to drive 10+ miles to find a petrol station is another matter...

 

[JamesT]

I didn't say the traditional car manufacturers were doomed. My point is they are reluctant to change - most of them initially thought they could just throw a battery into their existing cars, hope for the best and then wonder why they weren't selling. They didn't want to surrender their servicing income stream, that's understandable from their point of view, but consumers are more savvy these days.

As I'm sure you know, the incentives are offered to increase the speed of the uptake of BEVs, and the incentives are linked to reducing carbon emissions and the targets agreed by various nations over the previous decades.

If I understand the new rules properly, I think the EU have now stated that 90% of new cars and vans must be electric vehicles instead of 100% by 2035? So there may still be a few cars offered running on dino-juice. Whether anyone will want to drive 10+ miles to find a petrol station is another matter...

"last gasp" "disappearing before their eyes". That's not doomed?

Sure, having incentives to encourage take-up of EVs are fine in principle.

But the arbitrary targets are just stupid. This year's target is 28% EVs, according to the SMMT page @Snow1964 linked to the year-to-date figures are 22.7%. So some manufacturers may end getting fined because consumers didn't want enough of their EV offerings. How does that actually help make the shift? Isn't having their lunch eaten by the Chinese enough of an incentive for the European manufacturers to make better cars?

 

[Noddy]

This year's target is 28% EVs, according to the SMMT page @Snow1964 linked to the year-to-date figures are 22.7%.

The 28% figure is not the actual target each manufacturer needs to reach because PHEVs also count towards the target. So if you sell a lot of PHEVs you won’t need to reach 28%. Equally you can buy credits off other manufacturers who have sold more than 28%. This is lucrative business for Tesla.

 

[jon0844]

I don't think any targets or deadlines are going to matter because more and more people are buying EVs, and unlikely to return to ICE afterwards. EVs are getting ever cheaper, with more and more second hand bargains, and ranges will increase with new battery technology.

I'm not sure if and when we'll get to where Norway is, but we don't need a deadline to get people to transition which is gaining all the time. As more people get EVs and more people experience them, they'll want one too.

I'm not talking about custom build cars or other performance models, but mainstream vehicles.

 

[HSTEd]

How does that actually help make the shift? Isn't having their lunch eaten by the Chinese enough of an incentive for the European manufacturers to make better cars?

Lobbying means that they can simply get tariffs slapped on the Chinese cars to keep them from competing. This is what has happened in the US, and to a somewhat lesser extend, the EU.

Even the UK government excluded BYD cars from the EV car grant in a desperate attempt to prop up the legacy manufacturers

 

[jon0844]

Lobbying means that they can simply get tariffs slapped on the Chinese cars to keep them from competing. This is what has happened in the US, and to a somewhat lesser extend, the EU.

Even the UK government excluded BYD cars from the EV car grant in a desperate attempt to prop up the legacy manufacturers

Many Chinese car models got their own discount, suggesting China has the margins to play with. Yes, the UK and EU could start to try and be more like the USA and impose hefty tariffs, but the real loser then is the consumer. The likes of VW seem to be scared that they've been left behind in the EV transition, with lots of software issues and - like others - being late to the party with a small, affordable, EV that China does by the boatload (literally).

I guess the EU wants to try and help VW, but I don't think it will help. It will just set VW back if they don't keep advancing and innovating as quickly as possible. It's not like all is lost, but if they scale back EV production they'll become extinct eventually. (And I am talking about all of the VAG brands here, not just VW).

BMW seems to be doing some interesting things, and Mercedes is perhaps relying on a more prestigious customer base. Each of those, IMO, need to also work on some smaller and cheaper cars. BMW could surely bring back the i3 in a newer, cheaper, body almost immediately if they wanted to.

 

[Bald Rick]

Even the UK government excluded BYD cars from the EV car grant in a desperate attempt to prop up the legacy manufacturers

I read somewhere that the UK is BYDs biggest export market.

BMW seems to be doing some interesting things

Have they got the indicators working yet?

 

[jon0844]

Have they got the indicators working yet?

They can't yet operate them independently (left or right side) but have the hazards working fine for what BMW calls 'parking to get a pack of fags mode'.

 

[Trainman40083]

I read somewhere that the UK is BYDs biggest export market.




Have they got the indicators working yet?

I always thought they were an optional extra.

 

[Mawkie]

Yes, the UK and EU could start to try and be more like the USA and impose hefty tariffs, but the real loser then is the consumer.

BYD are investing $4.5bn in a new factory in Hungary with the ability to produce 200,000 vehicles, so tariffs won't work within the EU against that and the UK is hardly in any position to impose tariffs on European car manufacturing.

Satellite photos show how BYD's massive European factory is taking shape as it brings the fight to Tesla

The Chinese EV giant is doubling down on Europe by building a major facility in Hungary as it looks to capitalize on Tesla's slumping sales.

www.businessinsider.com

CATL (the massive Chinese battery manufacturer) is already manufacturing in the EU, and has just announced a partnership with Stellantis in Spain with a €4.1bn battery factory there.

CATL and Stellantis break ground on Spain’s largest EV battery plant

Europe’s second-largest carmaker Stellantis and Chinese EV battery giant CATL have started construction on a €4.1bn battery factory in northeastern Spain, expected to create 4,000 jobs.

www.euronews.com

 

[HSTEd]

I read somewhere that the UK is BYDs biggest export market.

Indeed, but if they were several thousand pounds cheaper, like their competitor's cars, it would be even more lopsided in their favour!

 

[E27007]

The 28% figure is not the actual target each manufacturer needs to reach because PHEVs also count towards the target. So if you sell a lot of PHEVs you won’t need to reach 28%.

Please check your statement, from my checks a PHEV is not a ZEV and does not count towards the target

 

[Noddy]

Please check your statement, from my checks a PHEV is not a ZEV and does not count towards the target

In fact it’s even more broad than just selling PHEVs. Improving the fuel efficiency of existing cars can get you extra credits/points. Quoting from the New Automotive article linked to below:

The ZEV Mandate: Points, not Cars​

​

Since January 2024, most carmakers who sell cars in Great Britain are required to meet targets as part of the Vehicle Emissions Trading Schemes Order 2023. This regulation sets annual electric vehicle registrations targets that gradually increase to reach full zero-emission car registrations by 2035. Achieving these targets is not simply a matter of reaching a certain percentage of EV registrations. Instead, the mandate revolves around the concept of allowances, or credits, which carmakers can earn in different ways to demonstrate compliance. These credits are like the score in a competition, so we will refer to them as “points”.

For 2024, carmakers need to obtain a number of points equal to 22% of their total car registrations in Great Britain. While EV registrations naturally earn points, companies can also earn points through improvements in the emissions performance of their petrol, diesel or hybrid cars, offering a different path to compliance.

Two Ways to Gain Points​

​

1. Selling Electric Vehicles
   As expected, carmakers earn a point for every electric vehicle they sell. These points accumulate toward their annual compliance requirement, encouraging manufacturers to increase the percentage of EVs in their lineup.
2. Improving Emissions Performance in Conventional Vehicles
   Carmakers can also earn points by selling cleaner conventional cars. Each manufacturer has a baseline for the emissions ratings of their conventional cars, typically set at the average emissions of its registrations in 2021. For every vehicle sold that is even 1g CO₂/km more efficient than the baseline, a carmaker earns a small fraction of a point.
   The size of the fraction is based on the average emissions of a conventional car, set at 167g CO₂/km. This means that small reductions in emissions ratings allow a company to accumulate points as if part of its registrations were zero-emission vehicles, even if they aren’t fully electric.

There is further detail in the article including worked examples.

Catch-22%: How carmakers can meet UK EV targets without selling more EVs

New briefing shows how carmakers can meet the UK's EV sales targets without having to sell more electric cars

newautomotive.substack.com

If I had a pound for every time I’ve seen people online quote the mandate figure assuming it was an absolute figure manufacturers had to reach I’d be a very rich person.