Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[Hadders]

Anyway, the reverse journey button on my site (and ltfares) comes into it's own for things like this.

Agreed!

 

[swing]

Looking at the TfL Single Fares Finder something seems to have gone seriously wrong with Stevenage fares…

Looks like problems at Hitchin / Letchworth / Baldock too (which often all have the same fare price), eg:

Hitchin to Finsbury Park peak £15.60 - correct
Hitchin to St Pancras LL Rail peak £17.80 - looks like the London Thameslink fare, not the London Terminals fare (£16.80)
Hitchin to Kings Cross Rail £20.30 peak - looks like the Hitchin to Z1-2 fare
Hitchin to Piccadilly Circus £19.70 peak - correct

(I've only looked one way, at selected destinations and at peak fares, however, I was careful to select the correct Rail stations)
Edit: A quick check seems to confirm similar to Stevenage that the reverse direction fares are correct

 

[Edvid]

I wonder if these particular discrepancies have anything to do with MCaaS (post #1575).

Looking ahead I found a couple of Oval-related snippets in the recent so-called GBR case study.

In public ownership, Greater Anglia are:

Introducing pay as you go for more passengers, with Project Oval Phase 2 bringing about 11 million passenger journeys into scope in 2026, of which Greater Anglia expect around 3 million passenger journeys converting to contactless.

This presumably refers specifically to the 20 stations that were recently postponed to summer 2026.

In public ownership, Southeastern are:

Making Pay-As-You-Go contactless ticketing available at 23 more stations on the network in 2026, and plans in place to roll out digital Pay-As-You-Go across all remaining stations in 2027. Every Southeastern station will also benefit from new modern, easier to use ticket machines to help ensure customers always get the best value fare for their journey.

Now this is interesting. 23 stations would account for extensions to Tunbridge Wells, Maidstone East, and Rochester / Chatham (if Ebbsfleet International is / isn't included respectively).

Paired with the reference to DPAYG (i.e. PAYG by GPS) it may well be that CPAY is no longer set to include the Medway Valley Line or the further-flung Medway stations.

 

[Robski]

There is another issue at Stevenage, any passengers changing from a train arriving on platforms 1-4 to a Moorgate train on platform 5 (and vice versa) may be temporarily overcharged.

https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/tickets/pay-as-you-go/contactless-travel

My journey involves changing trains between Platforms 1-4 and Platform 5 at Stevenage, can I use pay as you go with contactless?

We’ve become aware that, due to a technical issue, customers using pay as you go with contactless ticketing for journeys that interchange between platforms 1-4 and 5 at Stevenage may be overcharged.
To confirm, this applies only to journeys which involve changing trains between platforms 1-4 and platform 5 at Stevenage, not journeys which start or finish at Stevenage.
We’re working closely with Transport for London to resolve the issue as quickly as possible.
In the meantime, customers are advised to purchase paper or e-tickets instead of using contactless (for journeys that interchange at Stevenage only), to ensure they are charged the correct fare.
If you do use pay as you go with contactless for these journeys, Transport for London will calculate all overcharges throughout the week (Monday-Sunday) and automatically issue a refund to your account the following week.
Please accept our apologies.

 

[duffield]

There is another issue at Stevenage, any passengers changing from a train arriving on platforms 1-4 to a Moorgate train on platform 5 (and vice versa) may be temporarily overcharged.

https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/tickets/pay-as-you-go/contactless-travel

Well, it's quite impressive that at least it will be sorted automatically with a refund, as opposed to some manual process you need to initiate. Unless your bank account is near empty you can just ignore the warning, use contactless and get your refund.

 

[Hadders]

Whilst they’re at it they need to put in an OSI at Welwyn Garden City because if you’re changing there you sometimes need to exit and re-enter.

 

[MikeWh]

Whilst they’re at it they need to put in an OSI at Welwyn Garden City because if you’re changing there you sometimes need to exit and re-enter.

Can you expand on the scenario where that's necessary, please? I'm not familiar with WGC.

 

[kacper]

Can you expand on the scenario where that's necessary, please? I'm not familiar with WGC.

You need to cross a gateline to change onto the platform that has the Cambridge to London train, although i can't personally think of a journey that would require changing platforms at WGC as opposed to Hatfield

 

[Dstock7080]

Unfortunately itv London News report today at 1745 still proclaiming that 50 stations were involved from today, including Southend and Stansted airports.

 

[Hadders]

Can you expand on the scenario where that's necessary, please? I'm not familiar with WGC.

The footbridge is a public right of way so the gatelines are at the bottom of the stairs from each footbridge (with standalone card readers as you exit the lifts).

It's similar to the old set up at Finsbury Park, before the main station entrance was gated.

You need to cross a gateline to change onto the platform that has the Cambridge to London train, although i can't personally think of a journey that would require changing platforms at WGC as opposed to Hatfield

Stevenage to Brookmans Park. Basically anywhere north of WGC to a station served by inner-suburban trains.

Yes you could change at Hatfield but you can also change at WGC.

 

[kacper]

Yes you could change at Hatfield but you can also change at WGC.

Thank you for the correction

 

[jon0844]

You need to cross a gateline to change onto the platform that has the Cambridge to London train, although i can't personally think of a journey that would require changing platforms at WGC as opposed to Hatfield

If you're changing to a GN inner then you absolutely should stay on the train to Hatfield instead of alighting at WGC and crossing over. This is because if the King's Cross service is delayed, you can miss the Moorgate train - even though the Moorgate train will often be held on the flyover and slot in behind.

It also makes more sense to change at Hatfield because it's going to the the same platform you get the Moorgate train from.

The problem is that journey planners tell you to change at Welwyn Garden City and not Hatfield. Many people will have been forced to wait up to 30 minutes for their connection as a result.

 

[MikeWh]

(with standalone card readers as you exit the lifts).

So you could use the lifts and not touch out/in to make just one journey?

 

[Tester]

So you could use the lifts and not touch out/in to make just one journey?

Yes indeed - same as at Stevenage.

 

[cactustwirly]

I see it has rightly made the press

TfL contactless system live at some Surrey and Sussex stations - BBC News

Ashtead, Dormans, East Grinstead, Leatherhead, and Reigate are among the other affected stations.

www.bbc.co.uk

'Tap in system a back door fare rise' - commuter​

Image source,Getty Images
Image caption,TfL's Tap In/Tap Out approach has been introduced at a number of stations in Surrey and Sussex, including DorkingArticle Information

• • Author,Cash Murphy
  • Role,South East
• 4 hours ago

A new tap-in, tap-out system at Surrey and Sussex stations has been branded a "back door fare increase" by a commuter.
The change, introduced on Sunday, brings 11 Southern Railway stations into Transport for London's (TfL) contactless zone, including Dorking.
It means the first off-peak train is now after 09:30 GMT, rather than 08:43, and railcards cannot be used on peak services.
A spokesperson for Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR), which operates Southern Railway, said that for some "fares will rise but for many others they will fall".
Michael Watson, who commutes twice a week, said the move will become "an affordability issue for many" and called it "an unacceptable back door fare increase'".
He said was especially unfair given the recent decision to freeze regulated rail fares in England until March 2027.

 

[JonathanH]

I see it has rightly made the press

The impact on passengers has also been fairly easily dismissed by the railway.

The biggest surprise as far as Contactless is concerned from Southern stations is the unexpected application of the afternoon peak for journeys towards London. The change to 0930 for off-peak restrictions, and the afternoon peak away from London were always anticipated.

 

[MrJeeves]

The biggest surprise as far as Contactless is concerned from Southern stations is the unexpected application of the afternoon peak for journeys towards London. The change to 0930 for off-peak restrictions, and the afternoon peak away from London were always anticipated.

Surely this was an error rather than intentional. It's absolutely mind-boggling considering the paper/E-Ticket fares do not have afternoon peak towards London.

 

[Hadders]

The impact on passengers has also been fairly easily dismissed by the railway.

The biggest surprise as far as Contactless is concerned from Southern stations is the unexpected application of the afternoon peak for journeys towards London. The change to 0930 for off-peak restrictions, and the afternoon peak away from London were always anticipated.

It sounds like GTR have messed up, like with the fares from Stevenage.

 

[JonathanH]

Surely this was an error rather than intentional. It's absolutely mind-boggling considering the paper/E-Ticket fares do not have afternoon peak towards London.

Yes, although at the kinds of distances we are talking about the anytime day return fares (eg Clapham Junction to Reigate) were historically not priced at a discount to the fares in the peak flow direction.

The Southern website does say "Evening peak times apply 16:00 to 19:00, Monday to Friday, when you are travelling from or via a London station" so it looks like a mistake, especially because of the 'paper' fares, but maybe they did the sums and found it would cause too much revenue loss.

 

[MrJeeves]

The Southern website does say "Evening peak times apply 16:00 to 19:00, Monday to Friday, when you are travelling from or via a London station" so it looks like a mistake, especially because of the 'paper' fares, but maybe they did the sums and found it would cause too much revenue loss.

I mean even that has to be wrong, as a journey like Redhill to Reigate is intended to be charged at peak from 1600 to 1900 and that doesn't go from or via a London station!

I asked GTR about this error on Twitter. It went about as well as you'd expect:

With the new PAYG expansion, can you confirm whether there is now an evening peak when travelling towards London for a journey such as Reigate to Victoria?

Hi there. Our Peak evening travel is for journeys in the direction from London. Trains towards London will remain off peak during this time

Hi XYZ, that's what I expected. In that case, can you explain why evening peak restrictions have been added to the PAYG fares towards London then?

The "proper" paper/E-Tickets have been configured correctly without an evening peak.

See https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/single-fare-finder [screenshot of single fare finder]

Hi I'd advise reaching out to TfL regarding this, as they look after contactless payments.

Unfortunately, GTR set up the PAYG fares by sending a huge spreadsheet with the fares in to TfL.

Can you forward this issue to your pricing/retail team, please?

I'll get this queried for you.

 

[JonathanH]

I mean even that has to be wrong, as a journey like Redhill to Reigate is intended to be charged at peak from 1600 to 1900 and that doesn't go from or via a London station!

Yes, but that is 'expected' because Redhill to Reigate is in the direction 'from' London. I agree the wording is a little unclear.

For afternoon 'paper' fares between 1600 and 1900, Reigate to Redhill is off-peak, Reigate to Merstham is off-peak, Reigate to Earlswood is peak. Redhill to Reigate is peak, Merstham to Reigate is peak, Earlswood to Reigate is off-peak. On Contactless, they are all regarded as peak flows. On the legacy Contactless the fares on the Gatwick extension are all peak except when going to Zone 1, consistent with the treatment of fares inside London.

As an aside, I did notice that Reigate to Orpington is off-peak on Contactless in the 1600 to 1900 window (although it is somewhat more expensive than the fares from Reigate to Sevenoaks that do have the restriction).

 

[MrJeeves]

Reigate to Redhill is off-peak, Reigate to Merstham is off-peak, Reigate to Earlswood is peak. Redhill to Reigate is peak, Merstham to Reigate is peak, Earlswood to Reigate is off-peak.

Well that is just even more bizarre.

 

[czetter]

For anyone who has used contactless from Stevenage/Hitchin/Letchworth in morning peak today please share what you were charged. Was it the correct fare that’s on National Rail or the incorrect fare that’s listed on TFL’s single fare finder?

 

[swing]

For anyone who has used contactless from Stevenage/Hitchin/Letchworth in morning peak today please share what you were charged. Was it the correct fare that’s on National Rail or the incorrect fare that’s listed on TFL’s single fare finder?

I haven't travelled today, but I note that Baldock, Knebworth, Welwyn North and Watton at Stone all have the same issue as Stevenage, Hitchin and Letchworth in terms of the National Rail and TfL single fare finder showing differences in the single fares towards London (a quick analysis of fares to London King's Cross).

 

[MrJeeves]

For anyone who has used contactless from Stevenage/Hitchin/Letchworth in morning peak today please share what you were charged. Was it the correct fare that’s on National Rail or the incorrect fare that’s listed on TFL’s single fare finder?

Whatever shows on the single fare finder (or Oyster Fares, or ltfares.com) should be what is charged.

The fares in the National Rail system are separate and, as far as I know, do not directly impact anything relating to TfL charging.

 

[kevin_roche]

Is it possible to add my Senior Railcard to this service yet? I have not been following the progress and as I live outside the area I have not had cause to try it except on one occasion where it was a very short trip and I did not investigate the possibility.

 

[JonathanH]

Is it possible to add my Senior Railcard to this service yet?

No

 

[notverydeep]

If you're changing to a GN inner then you absolutely should stay on the train to Hatfield instead of alighting at WGC and crossing over. This is because if the King's Cross service is delayed, you can miss the Moorgate train - even though the Moorgate train will often be held on the flyover and slot in behind.

It also makes more sense to change at Hatfield because it's going to the the same platform you get the Moorgate train from.

The problem is that journey planners tell you to change at Welwyn Garden City and not Hatfield. Many people will have been forced to wait up to 30 minutes for their connection as a result.

During disruption, there can often be cases of skip stopping between WGC and Finsbury Park or Kings Cross, such that a passenger from north of WGC travelling to Hatfield or Potters Bar will have to make thi interchange at WGC.

 

[jon0844]

During disruption, there can often be cases of skip stopping between WGC and Finsbury Park or Kings Cross, such that a passenger from north of WGC travelling to Hatfield or Potters Bar will have to make thi interchange at WGC.

Yes, but that's not something to worry about most of the time. The inners have to be very late for not to call orders to be issued, especially if running fast just means being stuck behind something else. Yes it does happen, but I would still change at Hatfield - and by all means check if there's any delays to other services and reconsider for those specific situations.

It's far more often that a King's Cross arrives late so people don't make the Moorgate which then sits on the flyover to slot in behind the King's Cross train. With the new timetable, there's potentially another two minutes which might help - but changing train on the same platform makes more sense IMO.

 

[notverydeep]

Yes, but that's not something to worry about most of the time. The inners have to be very late for not to call orders to be issued, especially if running fast just means being stuck behind something else. Yes it does happen, but I would still change at Hatfield - and by all means check if there's any delays to other services and reconsider for those specific situations.

It's far more often that a King's Cross arrives late so people don't make the Moorgate which then sits on the flyover to slot in behind the King's Cross train. With the new timetable, there's potentially another two minutes which might help - but changing train on the same platform makes more sense IMO.

Oh yes, it is without a doubt that you would change at Hatfield in normal operation to connect to the Inners for stations not served by the King's Cross trains directly.

I was just commenting the case where a passenger is already aboard the train to that would normally take them to Hatfield or Potters Bar, where one of these is the destination for passengers from (say) Letchworth or Stevenage, but the train is no longer going to be calling there in disruption. In this case such passengers are often forced to interchange at WGC (often with a significant additional wait in my observation), because if otherwise they will be overcarried to Finsbury Park or Kings Cross. Maintaining this interchange is why in such cases during disruption, the stops up to WGC are often maintained, but south of WGC are skipped...

Then the original train will inevitably catch up the previous Moorgate and not get the fast line and take just as long to reach King's Cross as it would had it maintained its scheduled calls, making the skip stopping utterly futile in most cases - but that is a subject for a different thread...!