TFL Penalty fare - Failure to show railcard

[Crazy_Coffee]

This just happened tonight so I am writing this as soon as possible to ensure I remember all the details, If I have missed anything out, please feel free to ask for further details.

I was making a journey between Stratford and Finsbury Park in the evening peak using the Mildmay line via Highbury & Islington. When changing between the Overground and Victoria line at Highbury & Islington I encountered revenue inspectors checking every passenger’s tickets. I had my oyster card scanned and was allowed to pass the first inspector but was stopped by another one that scanned my card and requested I show my railcard (16-25 Railcard that I linked to my Oyster).

I did not have my Railcard on me and informed the inspector (This is fully on me, I didn’t think I needed to show it while using Oyster). I had my details taken and was given a penalty fare notice. During the ordeal I explained that I did not have my Railcard on me but had one in my wallet at home. The inspector assured me that If I appealed with photos of the valid card the penalty would be annulled.

Is the advice given correct, and if so, what is the best way of phrasing the appeal? I am concerned that the inspector may have just said this to me in order to reassure me or avoid any potential confrontation (I was fully cooperative but understand that not all passengers are when being given a penalty). I am concerned that if I admit it was carelessness (or imply it) the appeal will fail. Does anyone have some advice on how to phrase the appeal/if I should admit fault in writing.


Many thanks in advance for any help provided, this is a first time experience for me and I am eager to try and avoid the penalty, if at all possible, given how expensive the festive season already is.

 

[z444z]

What happens if I don't have my Railcard with me and I have to buy a new ticket or pay a Penalty Fare? - 16-25 Railcard

A 16-25 Railcard costs just �30 and it'll save you 1/3 on rail fares throughout Great Britain for a whole year.

www.16-25railcard.co.uk

Have you checked that you do in fact have the railcard and it is in date?

The appeal is a simple one and should succeed. Your wording shouldn’t matter too much, just make it clear that you are appealing under the forgotten railcard policy and make sure to attach images of the railcard. Do post your draft here for us to look over before you send it.

We usually ask to see images of penalty fares (with personal details redacted). Given how simple this case is it may not be necessary but probably still a good idea if it isn’t too much trouble.

EDIT: Just realised TFL may not have the same policy. It’s outlined in NRCoT but not TFL’s conditions of carriage. Does anyone know if TFL will take the same approach? Additionally as this happened when changing from Overground to Underground at Highbury & Islington will the NRCoT apply - at what point is the NR journey considered to have ended and the LU journey started? This case may be more complex than it first looked…

 

[Crazy_Coffee]

What happens if I don't have my Railcard with me and I have to buy a new ticket or pay a Penalty Fare? - 16-25 Railcard

A 16-25 Railcard costs just �30 and it'll save you 1/3 on rail fares throughout Great Britain for a whole year.

www.16-25railcard.co.uk

Have you checked that you do in fact have the railcard and it is in date?

The appeal is a simple one and should succeed. Your wording shouldn’t matter too much, just make it clear that you are appealing under the forgotten railcard policy and make sure to attach images of the railcard. Do post your draft here for us to look over before you send it.

We usually ask to see images of penalty fares (with personal details redacted). Given how simple this case is it may not be necessary but probably still a good idea if it isn’t too much trouble.

Thanks for the speedy response.

I have checked since getting home and can confirm the railcard is accounted for and still valid.
Here is the penalty itself, I doubt it will be of much use as its not got much additional detail beyond what I initially posted.

 

[z444z]

Thanks for the speedy response.

I have checked since getting home and can confirm the railcard is accounted for and still valid.
Here is the penalty itself, I doubt it will be of much use as its not got much additional detail beyond what I initially posted.

Thanks. See the edit I’ve just added - I think we need some input from people with more expert knowledge than myself especially on TFL penalty fares.

 

[Crazy_Coffee]

Thanks. See the edit I’ve just added - I think we need some input from people with more expert knowledge than myself especially on TFL penalty fares.

Yeah, this is why I was a little unsure. I am vaguely aware that on National Rail there can be a bit of leniency if you have a valid railcard but fail to show it. I wasn’t too sure if that same leniency applied with TFL and given that I had just tapped the interchange reader moments before the check its possible I was considered to be on the Underground portion of the journey.

 

[z444z]

Yeah, this is why I was a little unsure. I am vaguely aware that on National Rail there can be a bit of leniency if you have a valid railcard but fail to show it. I wasn’t too sure if that same leniency applied with TFL and given that I had just tapped the interchange reader moments before the check its possible I was considered to be on the Underground portion of the journey.

The “line” being documented as the Overground line may help your case if it comes down to arguing whether the NRCoT apply. Let’s see what others think!

 

[WesternLancer]

Surely the ‘forgotten railcard policy’ also applies on TfL operated overground services?

Aren’t they just ex British Rail National Rail services with operator devolved to TfL and their contractor. Same as eg merseyrail?

 

[z444z]

Surely the ‘forgotten railcard policy’ also applies on TfL operated overground services?

Aren’t they just ex British Rail National Rail services with operator devolved to TfL and their contractor. Same as eg merseyrail?

It says on the penalty fare that it was issued in accordance with the Greater London Authority Act 1999, so I’m not so sure. But equally unsure on how the provision of the NRCoT could not apply here.

 

[fandroid]

When a Railcard is loaded onto an Oyster card, the expiry date is recorded too. I assume that means that the discount fare rate automatically ceases to be applied after that date. So there's very little opportunity to actually cheat. Once TfL see that the card matches the details on the Oyster then I would hope that they'd refund the penalty, with a warning to carry the card when travelling.

 

[WesternLancer]

It says on the penalty fare that it was issued in accordance with the Greater London Authority Act 1999, so I’m not so sure. But equally unsure on how the provision of the NRCoT could not apply here.

A London expert will know but I feel sure it should apply for circs when you have forgotten your railcard and are allowed one grace occasion to present it later either to get the PF refunded or perhaps as part of an appeal stating those grounds.

 

[z444z]

OP, at this stage I’d suggest you draft a simple appeal on the basis that you held a valid railcard but were unable to present it and wish to invoke the forgotten railcard policy. Maybe finish off with something like “if no such forgotten railcard policy exists with TFL penalty fares, I request that my appeal is instead considered on discretionary grounds” - @WesternLancer your thoughts particularly on this last part much appreciated - and just see what they say. If they accept it that’s great, and if not they will hopefully let us know what it is exactly that we need to argue against in the further stages of appeal.

 

[John R]

When a Railcard is loaded onto an Oyster card, the expiry date is recorded too. I assume that means that the discount fare rate automatically ceases to be applied after that date. So there's very little opportunity to actually cheat.

Unless the owner lets someone else use that Oyster card. “Here, I don’t need it today, you can use it…”

 

[WesternLancer]

OP, at this stage I’d suggest you draft a simple appeal on the basis that you held a valid railcard but were unable to present it and wish to invoke the forgotten railcard policy. Maybe finish off with something like “if no such forgotten railcard policy exists with TFL penalty fares, I request that my appeal is instead considered on discretionary grounds” - @WesternLancer your thoughts particularly on this last part much appreciated - and just see what they say. If they accept it that’s great, and if not they will hopefully let us know what it is exactly that we need to argue against in the further stages of appeal.

Thanks. Personally I would just leave it as the first bit. Ie an assumption the forgotten railcard policy exists. Let them state that it does not apply on TfL if they believe it does not. Then if they do that deal with it at stage two appeal.

However unless the OP is up against the deadline to submit an appeal which they won’t be if this happened today I would wait eg 48 hours so that oyster and TfL experts on the forum can advise if that policy applies the same as it does on the whole of the rest of the national rail network.

Then the course of action and best wording can be finalised

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Dec 2025 ==


Op should quote from this faq answer linked below on the presumption that it applies to TfL rail services (ie the overground’ ) unless experts here say that is not the case.
My thinking is:
TfL rail is listed on the railcard website as a provider of rail services on which railcard discounts are valid thus they can’t opt out of conditions that apply to the Railcard like the forgotten railcard policy / procedures.

As set out in this link

What happens if I don't have my Railcard with me and I have to buy a new ticket or pay a Penalty Fare? - 16-25 Railcard

A 16-25 Railcard costs just �30 and it'll save you 1/3 on rail fares throughout Great Britain for a whole year.

www.16-25railcard.co.uk

 

[Crazy_Coffee]

Thanks for all the advice so far. Since I’ve only just received the penalty today, I’ll definitely hold off for at least 48 hours before submitting an appeal to see what people here have to say.

It’s interesting to see that this journey may or may not be covered by the NRCoT; I had initially assumed it would be, but I’m less certain given that the fare seems to be issued under different legislation. Thinking about it, does the NRCoT even apply if the journey is being paid for using Oyster?

 

[z444z]

Thinking about it, does the NRCoT even apply if the journey is being paid for using Oyster?

They can, yes. Whether they do in this scenario is also probably a yes. It’s whether that’s enough to have an impact on a TFL-issued penalty fare under London legislation that we’re unsure about.

 

[Sonic1234]

Unless the owner lets someone else use that Oyster card. “Here, I don’t need it today, you can use it…”

That is the weakness with TfL discounts. They make it hard to get them for security reasons, but generally ticket checks are so rare cards can be swapped/traded.

You don't see too many issues with railcards on TfL because of Freedom Passes and 60+ Oysters - why go for 1/3rd off when you can travel for free!

 

[WesternLancer]

It’s interesting to see that this journey may or may not be covered by the NRCoT; I had initially assumed it would be, but I’m less certain given that the fare seems to be issued under different legislation. Thinking about it, does the NRCoT even apply if the journey is being paid for using Oyster?

My instinct is yes because you could travel wholly on a national rail service eg Victoria to east Croydon on southern railway and pay for that trip by oyster and many other such trips in the oyster validity area where you would never travel on a TfL branded train or tube.

Depending on expert knowledge here if appeals fail I’d be thinking you should raise it with London travel watch.

 

[z444z]

My instinct is yes because you could travel wholly on a national rail service eg Victoria to east Croydon on southern railway and pay for that trip by oyster and many other such trips in the oyster validity area where you would never travel on a TfL branded train or tube.

I think it’s clear that NRCoT apply to your example, as well as journeys on TFL-operated NR services such as the Overground and Elizabeth line. What’s far less clear is how NRCoT interact with TFL’s conditions of carriage, which seem to jointly apply to TFL-operated NR services, and how that impacts the outcome of a TFL-issued penalty fare on a NR service.

It’s an interesting one that I am looking forward to an expert hopefully weighing in on.

 

[WesternLancer]

I think it’s clear that NRCoT apply to your example, as well as journeys on TFL-operated NR services such as the Overground and Elizabeth line. What’s far less clear is how NRCoT interact with TFL’s conditions of carriage, which seem to jointly apply to TFL-operated NR services, and how that impacts the outcome of a TFL-issued penalty fare on a NR service.

It’s an interesting one that I am looking forward to an expert hopefully weighing in on.

Yes. Good points.
It must happen reasonably often. Tho requires a few factors to come together eg a valid railcard that gets forgotten and a ticket inspector that asks to see the railcard.

 

[MotCO]

Has our resident Oyster expert got a view? @MikeWh

 

[MikeWh]

Has our resident Oyster expert got a view? @MikeWh

I've just looked at the current "Oyster Conditions of Use on National Rail services" and found the following:

7.1 Penalty fares apply on the National Rail network in accordance with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

I am of the opinion that as the stop was before any Underground travel and quoted the Overground line on the notice, the forgotten railcard policy in the NRCOC should apply. The Oyster conditions apply from 2015 which may explain why they don't mention the NRCOT, but I don't see how that changes anything as the NRCOT superceded the NRCOC.

As an aside, if an Oyster card has a railcard discount applied then the railcard must always be carried with the Oyster card, even when using buses or trams.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

As an aside, if an Oyster card has a railcard discount applied then the railcard must always be carried with the Oyster card, even when using buses or trams.

Plain Oyster cards as in the sense of having no discounts or concessions can be shared legally between different people. Most tickets and cards cannot.

It doesn't seem to come up as a problem, but if you had two or more Oyster cards in a household, some with discounts, others without, how do you tell which is which?

 

[John R]

Plain Oyster cards as in the sense of having no discounts or concessions can be shared legally between different people. Most tickets and cards cannot.

It doesn't seem to come up as a problem, but if you had two or more Oyster cards in a household, some with discounts, others without, how do you tell which is which?

Easy. You either hold them in different colour holders, or, as we do, put a small identifying mark (our initials) on each one.

 

[WesternLancer]

I've just looked at the current "Oyster Conditions of Use on National Rail services" and found the following:

I am of the opinion that as the stop was before any Underground travel and quoted the Overground line on the notice, the forgotten railcard policy in the NRCOC should apply. The Oyster conditions apply from 2015 which may explain why they don't mention the NRCOT, but I don't see how that changes anything as the NRCOT superceded the NRCOC.

As an aside, if an Oyster card has a railcard discount applied then the railcard must always be carried with the Oyster card, even when using buses or trams.

Thanks for this post @MikeWh - was hoping you might have an insight into this.

@Crazy_Coffee I think this is the info you need
Probably best to draft your appeal wording up and post it here for checking before you send it in

 

[DeparturesBeck]

@Crazy_Coffee Were you asked how you were travelling to Finsbury Park as you could have travelled from Highbury by Great Northern which would avoid any dispute as to whether London Underground rules apply.

How you travelled after the PF was issued is in my opinion moot as I believe the PF gave you travel authority.

 

[z444z]

@Crazy_Coffee Were you asked how you were travelling to Finsbury Park as you could have travelled from Highbury by Great Northern which would avoid any dispute as to whether London Underground rules apply.

Really good spot, well done. As I’m sure you know but others may not, the northbound Victoria and GN platforms at Highbury & Islington are right across from each other, both at deep level, with no gateline between them.

This makes it much easier to argue that NR rules must apply because there can be no certainty from TFL’s point of view that there was any intention to travel by anything other than NR services.

 

[KirkstallOne]

Probably worth linking this recent case where a final PF appeal over a forgotten railcard was not allowed (unhelpfully split over two separate threads):

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ervice-for-their-mistake.295042/#post-7555957
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...d-and-2-appeals-declined.294645/#post-7546471

Last update was the passenger was attempting to claim a refund from the ToC as per the NRCoT.

 

[HateTfLO]

Hi! I experienced the exact same thing last Sunday on the overground.
I showed my Oyster card and then they asked me to show my railcard.
As I bought a new phone one month ago, and I haven't taken or bought a train ticket during this month, I haven't logged in to the account with my railcard on the app at all. I asked for some time for me to log in. But the staff just didn't want to wait.

As soon as I went out my destination station, I logged in. And I immediately uploaded the screenshot of my railcard and oyster card to that appeal website. I just simply said that I have my Railcard, I just wasn't allowed to log in on the ride with terrible network.

Now it has been four days and there's not progress in the appeal process.
I am kinda worried if I put it in a too easy way.

I also want to express my anger on this unreasonable term - when I bought the railcard, I needed to find a staff of London Underground to help me link the railcard to my oyster card. There should already be information of me with my name and the valid dates (not sure about the photo). And the staff already checked my identity from the very beginning. Who would know that you need to show your railcard "as soon as being requested" for a tube ride? As everything has gone digital nowadays, it is very outdated to ask people to present physical things. What if my phone's battery died? They could have just had everything checked on their system. There are so many people who are not even paying the ticket, but the staff seem to target more on people who are following the rules and soft and willing to collaborate.

Anyway, hope that if we present the valid details of our railcard, they are able to cancel the penalty.

 

[Crazy_Coffee]

First of all, thanks to everyone for the helpful advice. While these things are never guaranteed I am feeling more confident that I can appeal this fare.

Thanks for this post @MikeWh - was hoping you might have an insight into this.

@Crazy_Coffee I think this is the info you need
Probably best to draft your appeal wording up and post it here for checking before you send it in

That’s definitely the best course of action, I’ll wait until tomorrow to draft something up and if nobody else comes in with new advice I'll submit the appeal on the weekend

@Crazy_Coffee Were you asked how you were travelling to Finsbury Park as you could have travelled from Highbury by Great Northern which would avoid any dispute as to whether London Underground rules apply.

How you travelled after the PF was issued is in my opinion moot as I believe the PF gave you travel authority.

I was not asked no. I imagine this works in my favour as if needed I can claim that I was not going to use the tube (I have used GTR instead of LU on this journey before) and therefore my journey couldn’t be considered a tube journey.

Probably worth linking this recent case where a final PF appeal over a forgotten railcard was not allowed (unhelpfully split over two separate threads):

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ervice-for-their-mistake.295042/#post-7555957
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...d-and-2-appeals-declined.294645/#post-7546471

Last update was the passenger was attempting to claim a refund from the ToC as per the NRCoT.

I'll admit this isn’t particularly reassuring, but it does seem like the penalty fare in that situation should have been cancelled or refunded. It’s also not with Oyster/TFL so I’m not sure if its directly comparable to my case.

 

[z444z]

Hi! I experienced the exact same thing last Sunday on the overground.
I showed my Oyster card and then they asked me to show my railcard.
As I bought a new phone one month ago, and I haven't taken or bought a train ticket during this month, I haven't logged in to the account with my railcard on the app at all. I asked for some time for me to log in. But the staff just didn't want to wait.

As soon as I went out my destination station, I logged in. And I immediately uploaded the screenshot of my railcard and oyster card to that appeal website. I just simply said that I have my Railcard, I just wasn't allowed to log in on the ride with terrible network.

Now it has been four days and there's not progress in the appeal process.
I am kinda worried if I put it in a too easy way.

I also want to express my anger on this unreasonable term - when I bought the railcard, I needed to find a staff of London Underground to help me link the railcard to my oyster card. There should already be information of me with my name and the valid dates (not sure about the photo). And the staff already checked my identity from the very beginning. Who would know that you need to show your railcard "as soon as being requested" for a tube ride? As everything has gone digital nowadays, it is very outdated to ask people to present physical things. What if my phone's battery died? They could have just had everything checked on their system. There are so many people who are not even paying the ticket, but the staff seem to target more on people who are following the rules and soft and willing to collaborate.

Anyway, hope that if we present the valid details of our railcard, they are able to cancel the penalty.

Hi, we generally ask that only one case is discussed in each thread to avoid confusion. Imo this message is fine as you aren’t asking for any help and are mostly just empathising with the OP - moderators may disagree though, this is just my opinion - but if you do want help from us or have further updates on your case please start your own thread.

If you could keep us updated on your case as it progresses that’d be really helpful so we can learn from it!

I do think that staff, when adding the railcard to your Oyster, should have to tell you that you must carry it at all times. I’ve done this process maybe 5 times, a couple for myself and a couple times helping other people with it, and have never been given this information though I am of course aware of it anyway.