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Delayed due to failure of Tesco daventry - coatbridge DRS service (17/12)

Zontar

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Currently stuck for a couple of hours at Carlisle due to 4S43 0625 Daventry Drs (Tesco) to Coatbridge (Drs) failed at Beattock summit. Chatting with train crew this happens quite regular apparently. This isn't a route I take, so does anyone know why this fails so often? Its caused absolute chaos and currently on a pendo crammed with 4 train loads of passengers.
 
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driver9000

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It's a single Bo-Bo class 88 slipping on a steep gradient in the rain hauling a heavy train and yes it's a fairly regular occurrence.
 

aaronspence

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Do Avanti get compenstation from the freight company? Two trains full to Glasgow over 1h late so all will get 100% refunds, Lot of money lost there.
 

hexagon789

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Do Avanti get compenstation from the freight company? Two trains full to Glasgow over 1h late so all will get 100% refunds, Lot of money lost there.
I believe the freight company gets billed every four weeks by Network Rail (NR), at which any delay compensation NR owes them is totted up and any they owe NR totted up. There is a set formula and usually a cap, so largescale incidents don't end up brankrupting companies.

Avanti will also have a four weekly delay attribution billing.

Essentially, the freight company will be paying NR here, assuming NR don't owe them more.

Avanti will then be paid by NR, assuming they don't owe NR more (unlikely).

The freight company won't be directly paying delay compensation to Avanti.

That's how I understand the arrangements at least.
 

dave59

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If it did slip it was probably because one of the 88's was removed at Carlisle.
 

Zontar

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All just seems a but avoidable if it's happening regularly. Maybe it's not and they're taking all the mitigation they can, but if a loco was taken off, seems a bad gamble. Also nr allowing it to happen regularly is odd. More insight needed if anyone can share, probably more to it than my cynicism.
 

dave59

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I only know from Railcam chat. It was a single 88 (pan down) hauled by the rescue 66 at Thankerton camera.
 

j37401

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I believe the freight company gets billed every four weeks by Network Rail (NR), at which any delay compensation NR owes them is totted up and any they owe NR totted up. There is a set formula and usually a cap, so largescale incidents don't end up brankrupting companies.

Avanti will also have a four weekly delay attribution billing.

Essentially, the freight company will be paying NR here, assuming NR don't owe them more.

Avanti will then be paid by NR, assuming they don't owe NR more (unlikely).

The freight company won't be directly paying delay compensation to Avanti.

That's how I understand the arrangements at least.

Thanks for the insight. I always wonder if there were some caveats to this. For example are light locos and empty coaching stock moves exempt from getting billed or are reduced with them being non revenue earning. Or are they just 'all the same' so to speak.
 

Freightmaster

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One was taken off at Kingmoor.

4S43 has alternated between being single and double headed for weeks at a time for the past
couple of years and frequently comes to grief on Beattock when single headed in the Autumn/
Winter months, so I can't understand why DRS won't just accept that it requires double heading
daily between October and March, even if that means using a 68+88 combo on the days when
insufficient 88s are available?

More to the point, Network Rail should insist that a single 88 is not used to haul that particular
train north of Carlisle at this time of year.



MARK
 

Zontar

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4S43 has alternated between being single and double headed for weeks at a time for the past
couple of years and frequently comes to grief on Beattock when single headed in the Autumn/
Winter months, so I can't understand why DRS won't just accept that it requires double heading
daily between October and March, even if that means using a 68+88 combo on the days when
insufficient 88s are available?

More to the point, Network Rail should insist that a single 88 is not used to haul that particular
train north of Carlisle at this time of year.



MARK
Yes my thoughts entirely
 

dmncf

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I wonder if the Stadler Class 88 has a less advanced wheel slip control system than the slightly newer Stadler Class 93? ROG has claimed that the Stadler Class 93's Bo-Bo wheel arrangement plus its wheel slip control system are sufficient to haul heavy trains on the WCML, and ROG appear to have backed that up with real world trials.
 

hwl

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I wonder if the Stadler Class 88 has a less advanced wheel slip control system than the slightly newer Stadler Class 93? ROG has claimed that the Stadler Class 93's Bo-Bo wheel arrangement plus its wheel slip control system are sufficient to haul heavy trains on the WCML, and ROG appear to have backed that up with real world trials.
ROG's trials weren't in autumn!
ROG's trial also involved aggregate wagons with heavy axle loads rather than a much larger number of intermodal wagons with higher mechanical and aerodynamic resistance but slightly lower mass.
As @edwin_m alludes to the core issue is 4 axles vs 6 or 8. While a 66 is much slower as it has less power it still gets there unlike an 88 in there conditions.
There may also be a element of the drivers leaving the computer to try to work miracles when they might get better outcomes using traditional drivers common sense... (e.g. backing off the power to stay with adhesion limits rather than asking for too much power resulting in letting the computer try to recover from uncontrolled slip lots of the time)
 

styles

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I am slightly hijacking this thread to clarify some terminology...
It's a single Bo-Bo class 88 slipping on a steep gradient in the rain hauling a heavy train and yes it's a fairly regular occurrence.
What is a Bo-Bo?
I only know from Railcam chat. It was a single 88 (pan down) hauled by the rescue 66 at Thankerton camera.
What does 'pan down' mean?
4S43 has alternated between being single and double headed for weeks at a time for the past
couple of years and frequently comes to grief on Beattock when single headed in the Autumn/
Winter months, so I can't understand why DRS won't just accept that it requires double heading
daily between October and March, even if that means using a 68+88 combo on the days when
insufficient 88s are available?
What does 'double heading' mean?
 

hexagon789

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styles

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'Bo' denotes a two axle bogie, each axle driven individually.

If it was a two axle bogie with shared drive, it would be B-B.

So a Bo-Bo has two, two-axle bogies - each axle is driven independently.



Pantograph (current collection device) dropped.



Two locos hauling.
Thank you :)
 

dave59

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Is it confirmed that 4S43 DID slip to a stand? Perhaps another issue? Single 88's were running today (18th).
 

furnessvale

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It gives me no pleasure to say that I was poo pooed on this forum for suggesting that a single Bo-Bo over Shap and Beattock in winter on heavy freights is not a good idea, no matter what theoretical adhesion calculations suggest.
 

Freightmaster

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It gives me no pleasure to say that I was poo pooed on this forum for suggesting that a single Bo-Bo over Shap and Beattock in winter on heavy freights is not a good idea, no matter what theoretical adhesion calculations suggest.
Freightliner exclusively use their 90s (and 86s prior to that) in pairs over the northern Fells,
so it baffles me how DRS feel they can get away with using single 88s in anything other than
perfect railhead conditions.

The most bizarre thing to me is that DRS's nuclear flask trains have always been double headed
for reliability reasons, but they seem reluctant to take the same approach with 4S43?




MARK
 

hwl

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It gives me no pleasure to say that I was poo pooed on this forum for suggesting that a single Bo-Bo over Shap and Beattock in winter on heavy freights is not a good idea, no matter what theoretical adhesion calculations suggest.
Better theoretical adhesion calculations also suggest this is a bad idea...

It isn't just you who has been previous criticised for pointing out the blindingly obvious before either there are quite a few of us in that club!
 

tumbledown

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The most bizarre thing to me is that DRS's nuclear flask trains have always been double headed
for reliability reasons, but they seem reluctant to take the same approach with 4S43?
Because a runaway train of baked-beans doesn't have the news value of a runaway train of nuclear waste?
 

hwl

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Freightliner exclusively use their 90s (and 86s prior to that) in pairs over the northern Fells,
so it baffles me how DRS feel they can get away with using single 88s in anything other than
perfect railhead conditions.
They appear to have very little understanding of adhesion maths or want assumption to use on non perfect days.
The most bizarre thing to me is that DRS's nuclear flask trains have always been double headed
for reliability reasons, but they seem reluctant to take the same approach with 4S43?
Which is crazy since the probability of needing a second locomotive (for any reason) is 2-3 orders of magnitude higher for 4S43 compared to a flask train!
 

bahnause

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There may also be a element of the drivers leaving the computer to try to work miracles when they might get better outcomes using traditional drivers common sense... (e.g. backing off the power to stay with adhesion limits rather than asking for too much power resulting in letting the computer try to recover from uncontrolled slip lots of the time)
This is the exact opposite of what every modern three-phase locomotive operator's manual says, and what test run measurements confirm. Modern traction control systems can and will use slip to condition the wheels and rails very precisely, resulting in a significantly higher usable tractive effort. The difference between conditioned and unconditioned rails is particularly noticeable in places where trains frequently accelerate or brake. The friction coefficients there are significantly higher than in other places. When passing through stations, our measurements have shown an increase in traction force of around 150% (65 kN to 160 kN) under otherwise identical conditions. Wheel slip for conditioneing rails is therefore desirable. The optimum slip value depends on the track conditions and the speed. The main limiting factors are comfort values and impermissible torsional vibrations, which the traction control must also manage. At high speeds and low friction coefficients, high slip has little effect on the overall tractive force; however, at low and medium speeds, it does.

Manually driving the train without any slip on the "weakest" axle usually results in the other axles remaining significantly below the otherwise achievable tractive effort.

The route between Brugg and Frick is a great “test track” for us, as it carries a lot of heavy freight traffic and double heading would be incredibly inefficient and expensive due to the relatively short length of the route. As a result, many trains there run with a single four-axle locomotive close to the maximum load (which is set by the TOC, by the way). Are there any traction problems under certain circumstances? Yes, but very rarely. However, these are accepted because adding a second locomotive or reducing the load would result in disproportionately large productivity losses.
 

hwl

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This is the exact opposite of what every modern three-phase locomotive operator's manual says, and what test run measurements confirm. Modern traction control systems can and will use slip to condition the wheels and rails very precisely, resulting in a significantly higher usable tractive effort. The difference between conditioned and unconditioned rails is particularly noticeable in places where trains frequently accelerate or brake. The friction coefficients there are significantly higher than in other places. When passing through stations, our measurements have shown an increase in traction force of around 150% (65 kN to 160 kN) under otherwise identical conditions. Wheel slip for conditioning rails is therefore desirable. The optimum slip value depends on the track conditions and the speed. The main limiting factors are comfort values and impermissible torsional vibrations, which the traction control must also manage. At high speeds and low friction coefficients, high slip has little effect on the overall tractive force; however, at low and medium speeds, it does.

Manually driving the train without any slip on the "weakest" axle usually results in the other axles remaining significantly below the otherwise achievable tractive effort.

The route between Brugg and Frick is a great “test track” for us, as it carries a lot of heavy freight traffic and double heading would be incredibly inefficient and expensive due to the relatively short length of the route. As a result, many trains there run with a single four-axle locomotive close to the maximum load (which is set by the TOC, by the way). Are there any traction problems under certain circumstances? Yes, but very rarely. However, these are accepted because adding a second locomotive or reducing the load would result in disproportionately large productivity losses.
Possible due to poor language choice on my part and widespread general lack of understanding of Class 88 operation there has been some misinterpretation of what I meant.
1. In order not to exceed the maximum permitted power draw per train, pairs of Class 88 are power limited so on the curved part of the TE curve they are automatically limited to circa 80% of max traction power of a single locomotive
2. In order not to exceed the maximum coupler rating, pairs of Class 88 are automatically TE limited on the flat low speed part of the TE curve, they are automatically limited to 75 - 80% of max traction effort of a single locomotive at low speeds
3. This effectively means a pair of Class 88 is only asking for ~80% of the performance per axle of a single Class 88. And they seem to be able to operate successfully like this. The derating is fully automated with no driver interaction, the driver can still put the power lever to max but the computer will cap the requested power.
4. The leading axle of Class 88s does lots of software controller rail head conditioning work thus leaving 3axles (single 88) or 7 axles (double 88) to deliver a full performance and reduced performance from the leading axle. I wasn't suggesting turning this or any of the slip management systems off.

My Quote:
There may also be an element of the drivers leaving the computer to try to work miracles when they might get better outcomes using traditional drivers common sense... (e.g. backing off the power to stay with adhesion limits rather than asking for too much power resulting in letting the computer try to recover from uncontrolled slip lots of the time)

5. Single Class 88 operation on intermodal requires full power on meaningful hills to keep to time hence drivers have a tendency to apply full power by default which some times appears to be a bad idea. In adverse conditions they might be far better applying 80% of the power in similar manner to the automated double headed power /TE caps thus allowing the slip management systems to work rather than asking the impossible of them. E.g replicate what works with double heading as closely as possible

6. There are multiple reasons that pairs of Class 88s work better in poor conditions than a single Class 88 (ignoring driver inputs)
  • More axles
  • Lower maximum TE per axle at any speed
  • less need to apply the (lower) maximum TE or close to lower maximum TE per axle to run train to time
  • proportionately fewer axles applying reduced TE while engaged in rail head conditioning (if needed)
Unfortunately all the commentary so far has just focused on the first point!
 

bahnause

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5. Single Class 88 operation on intermodal requires full power on meaningful hills to keep to time hence drivers have a tendency to apply full power by default which some times appears to be a bad idea. In adverse conditions they might be far better applying 80% of the power in similar manner to the automated double headed power /TE caps thus allowing the slip management systems to work rather than asking the impossible of them. E.g replicate what works with double heading as closely as possible
Thank you very much for your explanation — it makes much more sense now.

I don't have any personal experience with the 88, but I would be surprised if the slip control worked fundamentally differently to that of other rolling stock. In my view, with non-adaptive control, setting a target value of 200 or 300 kN for the locomotive makes no difference if, due to the condition of the track, only 150 kN can be achieved. The behaviour will most likely be the same. In some cases, it is explicitly specified that, in cases of poor adhesion, the maximum tractive force should be set and not changed. This prevents slip control from 'forgetting' the current state when a change occurs and trying to reach the optimum slip point again.

This is slightly different for vehicles with adaptive control. As the locomotive driver, I can more or less specifically choose how much slip to allow. Requesting 200 kN on a greasy track would therefore result in smoother driving behaviour with less slip and generally lower traction forces. At 300 kN, the locomotive would achieve higher slip and have higher tractive forces.
Uncontrolled slip is no longer a problem with modern locomotives, as the control system operates within the millisecond range.

Nevertheless, the question of the reliability of locomotive transport arises. How often do problems occur, and what causes them? Could there have been a malfunction in the locomotive? Given the margins in freight transport today, the question is often not whether to run the train with one or two locomotives, but whether you get the contract at all or the load ends up on a lorry. Thre is a reason for companies paying extra for a Vectron with XLoad instead of buying the cheaper "normal" variant. Every ton counts.
 

Simon75

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Currently stuck for a couple of hours at Carlisle due to 4S43 0625 Daventry Drs (Tesco) to Coatbridge (Drs) failed at Beattock summit. Chatting with train crew this happens quite regular apparently. This isn't a route I take, so does anyone know why this fails so often? Its caused absolute chaos and currently on a pendo crammed with 4 train loads of passengers.
Sorry what does Drs mean ?
 

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